Can God forgive?

[firedragon]

Sin being deliberate disloyalty to deity, to repent is to restore right relations after a season of rebellion.

Specifically, we need only receive Gods forgiveness which has gone out before we ever thought to ask for it. In turn we forgive others which is when we experience forgiveness.

Propitiation is an idea born in the human EGO that thinks like an accountant, that an account must be squared up.

So again, how do you interpret the word hilastirion in Romans 3:5?

 

[firedragon]

This is from my theology which I believe to be true:

"Righteousness implies that God is the source of the moral law of the universe. Truth exhibits God as a revealer, as a teacher. But love gives and craves affection, seeks understanding fellowship such as exists between parent and child. Righteousness may be the divine thought, but love is a father’s attitude. The erroneous supposition that the righteousness of God was irreconcilable with the selfless love of the heavenly Father, presupposed absence of unity in the nature of Deity and led directly to the elaboration of the atonement doctrine, which is a philosophic assault upon both the unity and the free-willness of God.

The affectionate heavenly Father, whose spirit indwells his children on earth, is not a divided personality—one of justice and one of mercy—neither does it require a mediator to secure the Father’s favor or forgiveness. Divine righteousness is not dominated by strict retributive justice; God as a father transcends God as a judge." UB 1955

Is that from Urantia book when you say UB? I have never read any of it really. Which I shall. I honestly dont know anything about it. Shows you can never be well read.

Let me try and read up. Maybe another thread due on your theology.

 

[Inquire of God]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks WE cannot limit God.
The truth of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is an infinite subject of eternal beauty.
Through this Atonement I have received a portion of joy that has taken the sting out of my sad life (that which has been done to me wrongly and that which I have wrongly done) and given me the peace and strength to go on living.
I am grateful forever. This is my only current eternal perspective.
If God does not forgive I could never have received this joy, if Jesus' sacrifice was meaningless there would have been no need for Him to have come and done what He did and no perfect being would ever make a mistake of any kind.
God can and does forgive IF we turn 180 degrees from our sinfulness and keep going the other direction.

 

[firedragon]

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks WE cannot limit God.

If it does not matter, its your prerogative.

Sometimes one may open a thread to get some insights and apologetics. And sometimes, there props up one or two amazing, amazing thoughts.

So if it does not matter to you, the thread is not relevant to you.

Thanks for engaging. Cheers.

 

[Inquire of God]

If it does not matter, its your prerogative.

Sometimes one may open a thread to get some insights and apologetics. And sometimes, there props up one or two amazing, amazing thoughts.

So if it does not matter to you, the thread is not relevant to you.

Thanks for engaging. Cheers.

I actually DO find it relevant to me.
It feels like there may be a tendency for some people to believe that words they say or thoughts they think have some bearing on what God can and cannot do.
My opinion is that the only things God CANNOT do are the things He is not going to do under any circumstances due to His own self-imposed limitations. Those limitations would be His own laws and not anything that a human would or could impose and what those laws actually are I do not believe anyone on this planet actually comprehends.
That is what I think.

 

[firedragon]

I actually DO find it relevant to me.
It feels like there may be a tendency for some people to believe that words they say or thoughts they think have some bearing on what God can and cannot do.
My opinion is that the only things God CANNOT do are the things He is not going to do under any circumstances due to His own self-imposed limitations. Those limitations would be His own laws and not anything that a human would or could impose and what those laws actually are I do not believe anyone on this planet actually comprehends.
That is what I think.

So can God just forgive sins and give reconciliation to all without sending the second person of the trinity as a man to get killed by a bunch of people as the Christian Theology generally says?

 

[1213]

....Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? ...

Death was not required for to forgive sins. Jesus could forgive them and even his disciples could do it.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

 

[firedragon]

Death was not required for to forgive sins. Jesus could forgive them and even his disciples could do it.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

So you dont believe in the sacrificial lamb either?

 

[Inquire of God]

So can God just forgive sins and give reconciliation to all without sending the second person of the trinity as a man to get killed by a bunch of people as the Christian Theology generally says?

Your question is not answered simply.
God was forgiving people before His Son completed the Atoning Sacrifice, this is true.
But, in the scriptures we also find that Jesus, though He was tormented in the garden, beyond what man can take and live, and though He was viciously mistreated and nailed to a piece of wood He was not actually killed. He "gave up the ghost" and allowed His body to expire, otherwise He would NOT have died. No one, not even Satan himself can claim to have killed Him.
The Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is an eternal and infinite thing, it is not possible for us to understand its' significance or complete ramifications, that IS a matter of faith.
The only way to know if it is a legitimate God ordained sacrifice is to receive an answer from God that it is.
I have received this answer and know that it is legitimate and that we can use this to our benefit and it was meant to be used, to draw close to God, to have an advocate with the Father and a way to receive forgiveness.
The fact that the Atonement is an eternal thing DOES mean God foreknew it was going to happen and therefore it was operative long before it ever happened. I.E. it has retroactive power because it is eternal.

 

[firedragon]

Your question is not answered simply.
God was forgiving people before His Son completed the Atoning Sacrifice, this is true.
But, in the scriptures we also find that Jesus, though He was tormented in the garden, beyond what man can take and live, and though He was viciously mistreated and nailed to a piece of wood He was not actually killed. He "gave up the ghost" and allowed His body to expire, otherwise He would NOT have died. No one, not even Satan himself can claim to have killed Him.
The Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is an eternal and infinite thing, it is not possible for us to understand its' significance or complete ramifications, that IS a matter of faith.
The only way to know if it is a legitimate God ordained sacrifice is to receive an answer from God that it is.
I have received this answer and know that it is legitimate and that we can use this to our benefit and it was meant to be used, to draw close to God, to have an advocate with the Father and a way to receive forgiveness.
The fact that the Atonement is an eternal thing DOES mean God foreknew it was going to happen and therefore it was operative long before it ever happened. I.E. it has retroactive power because it is eternal.

So God has limits in his atoning prowess where a sacrifice of himself or the second person in the trinity was necessary to simply will it into fruition?

God could create the whole universe, but could not do something that does not require divine intervention in the natural world, but only a will. God suddenly became powerless!

 

[Inquire of God]

So God has limits in his atoning prowess where a sacrifice of himself or the second person in the trinity was necessary to simply will it into fruition?

God could create the whole universe, but could not do something that does not require divine intervention in the natural world, but only a will. God suddenly became powerless!

The limits are on us not Him.
We cannot endure the effects of our sins, that is why He took them, only God could take those effects.
If we do not accept His sacrifice then we will have to take those effects.
That is a choice one can make, it is up to the individual.
This is a crucial subject to not misunderstand or reject.
But, in the end, it's up to you personally to refuse or to accept.

 

[firedragon]

We cannot endure the effects of our sins, that is why He took them, only God could take those effects.

I dont think you are engaging with the question.

Thats fine. Thank you for your response.

 

[Inquire of God]

I dont think you are engaging with the question.

Thats fine. Thank you for your response.

You are welcome. I can only TRY to address your words as I see the answer or reply should be stated, I know this may not fit with what you expect or what you may feel is required.
But let me say this, my bias is obvious, I can only address things in the way I choose and I have no desire to lead anyone astray nor to cause them grief.
I am standing where I am and pointing toward Jesus Christ.
This I do with only a heartfelt desire, on my part, for others to find Him and come to know what I know.
If I fail at least I tried and no one has been harmed.

 

[74x12]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

God's always limited by one thing that is the truth. The reason God can't forgive without Jesus death is because everyone has to die for their sins. The good news is that since Jesus dies but then afterwards rises from the dead. Therefore we also have the same hope that we can also rise from the dead. That is cheating death basically thanks to Jesus Christ. But God still has to keep his word and put everyone to death for sin.

 

[Nivek001]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

First, it has to be defined just what a sin is.

First of all, it’s believed that we are commanded to be perfect:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 KJV

Yet we make mistakes and become imperfect. We receive blemishes or stains on our character.

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mark 7:20-23 KJV

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Corinthians 3:17 KJV

However, despite our short comings, we can seek forgiveness by trying to overcome those weaknesses, imperfections, or stains. if we put forth some effort into it.

1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2Corinthians 7:1 KJV

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:3 KJV

Now the reason why sin is an issue is that if one is to have eternal happiness one must be like God The Father, who is perfect. God is not the way he is because he can break the laws of perfection and purity, but because he follows those laws.

That means there are laws that even God adheres to. God cannot just simply waive any violation of those laws. In order for us to overcome our impurities or imperfections, God has to work within the system, which is a system of justice.

If one commits an offense that violates one’s perfection or purity, it’s a disqualification from perfection and from eternal happiness because we need to be pure and perfect in order to obtain that eternal happiness. When we don’t get to that state of purity and perfection, we will not have that happiness and will suffer because of it.

To overcome those stains or imperfections there must be restitution. There is no bypassing that, not even from God. Also we are so imperfect that there is no way we can truly make full restitution for our imperfections or impurities.

However, there is one way God could provide a means for us to fix those mistakes we cannot fully repair. A payment for our mistakes or sins has to be made, but in this case God sets up a means to have those mistakes be fully paid for. That payment would involve suffering.

Now God the Father himself could not suffer for our imperfections or sins since he is already a perfect being both physically and spiritually. However, there was a way to still get that payment for our sins for our sins by sending his only begotten Son (John 3:16). Where God the Father could not do the paying, his only begotten Son could. Begotten Son means not only being Son of God spiritually, but also physically as well. The Son (who is believed to have been Jesus of Nazareth) came to Earth being born of a mortal mother, which made him become able to suffer and even die, and having a divine father, which made him have the power and strength to suffer for all our sins and overcome death on our behalf.

When Jesus had done that Jesus then became our creditor because he already paid the price for our mistakes or sins. That meant if we want to have that perfect state of eternal happiness we owe our debt to Jesus, who also became The Christ.

There are still term or conditions with our debt, but Jesus’s terms are more lenient. Instead of demanding us to pay for our mistakes in full. We only have to commit to following Christ’s teachings and work at fixing our mistakes or sins through repentance as best as we can.

Although what we can do is of course not nearly enough. It does show we are willing to try our best, so where we will fall short, Jesus Christ will make up for the rest by forgiving.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans conscious.

O earth stone naturally formed said body origin one in science statements of man human.

O entity a God...
Lots of gods in space ooooooo planets. God theme.

Man...a father human whose son a baby is not scientific conscious.

Son baby human grows into adult human father body.

Human father of son the theist. Scientist.

Status O planet God thesis for science.

Human alive.
Human living.
Owned gods spirit sacrificed in space womb vacuum held on burning cross to holy non burning cross. Mother vacuum it's witness.

All stated by just a human alive present theorising.

O God earth is not male. It is stone.
Vacuum is not rationally a mother or a womb.

If you could not understand God science it was taught to populous as similes. Human sexual ownership inferred.

Not real science themes in science terminology.

Destruction themes only understood by a small percent of human consciousness as science statements.

Destroyer mentality not the highest intellect. Spiritual consciousness is. The non want of destruction

O God as stone does not speak. Man brother scientist human spoke on behalf of God theories. By machine cause irradiated sacrificed man life encoded voice speaking human image with nuclear dust reacted vision.

History science. Healed vision researched after the fact. First recording mountain top removal by UFO Ark flooded earth. A sun thesis.

Where he lived. Ground not flooded. No UFO Ark. Living with animals and females when he re invented rebuilt pyramid science.

Converted life radiated effect by UFO Ark...life was attacked sacrificed on stone body. The altar of God was planet earth.

Exactly how it was taught. No man is God.

 

[rational experiences]

First, it has to be defined just what a sin is.

First of all, it’s believed that we are commanded to be perfect:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 KJV

Yet we make mistakes and become imperfect. We receive blemishes or stains on our character.

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mark 7:20-23 KJV

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Corinthians 3:17 KJV

However, despite our short comings, we can seek forgiveness by trying to overcome those weaknesses, imperfections, or stains. if we put forth some effort into it.

1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2Corinthians 7:1 KJV

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:3 KJV

Now the reason why sin is an issue is that if one is to have eternal happiness one must be like God The Father, who is perfect. God is not the way he is because he can break the laws of perfection and purity, but because he follows those laws.

That means there are laws that even God adheres to. God cannot just simply waive any violation of those laws. In order for us to overcome our impurities or imperfections, God has to work within the system, which is a system of justice.

If one commits an offense that violates one’s perfection or purity, it’s a disqualification from perfection and from eternal happiness because we need to be pure and perfect in order to obtain that eternal happiness. When we don’t get to that state of purity and perfection, we will not have that happiness and will suffer because of it.

To overcome those stains or imperfections there must be restitution. There is no bypassing that, not even from God. Also we are so imperfect that there is no way we can truly make full restitution for our imperfections or impurities.

However, there is one way God could provide a means for us to fix those mistakes we cannot fully repair. A payment for our mistakes or sins has to be made, but in this case God sets up a means to have those mistakes be fully paid for. That payment would involve suffering.

Now God the Father himself could not suffer for our imperfections or sins since he is already a perfect being both physically and spiritually. However, there was a way to still get that payment for our sins for our sins by sending his only begotten Son (John 3:16). Where God the Father could not do the paying, his only begotten Son could. Begotten Son means not only being Son of God spiritually, but also physically as well. The Son (who is believed to have been Jesus of Nazareth) came to Earth being born of a mortal mother, which made him become able to suffer and even die, and having a divine father, which made him have the power and strength to suffer for all our sins and overcome death on our behalf.

When Jesus had done that Jesus then became our creditor because he already paid the price for our mistakes or sins. That meant if we want to have that perfect state of eternal happiness we owe our debt to Jesus, who also became The Christ.

There are still term or conditions with our debt, but Jesus’s terms are more lenient. Instead of demanding us to pay for our mistakes in full. We only have to commit to following Christ’s teachings and work at fixing our mistakes or sins through repentance as best as we can.

Although what we can do is of course not nearly enough. It does show we are willing to try our best, so where we will fall short, Jesus Christ will make up for the rest by forgiving.

A science thesis.

Did the planet forgive the sun for attacking sacrificing its stone body?

Review thesis. Water baptism over gods head O stone planet.

God saved God planet head throne stone.

As a human science thesis.

Radiation gases burning evaporated origin flood.

Man as human self owned. Human.

Decides to theory conversion of body of God.

Is the destroyer warning. A total dimwit.

Commits consuming nuclear sin às a scientist man.

Were you forgiven?

Theme......reaction reacted. I did evil. Evil the reaction owns a beginning and an end. Reaction stops.

Thank god says the scientist I never meant to attack my own man life.

Human mentality lied about speaking on behalf of God.
We are all human theorising for science about earth as products.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

Hi fire dragon.

Can you kindly quote the passage in the Bible regarding Christ having to die on the cross for forgiveness? Because it might come down to an interpretation.

Of course there’s no question God is All Forgiving, All Powerful and Almighty. So there’s something wrong with the interpretation I believe.

 

[rational experiences]

Theists. Human. To think. To think for science first not about God by I want. A human motivation.

Then thinks God O earth owned all reactions.

Thinks about stone presence. One theory.
Thinks about heavens body presence another theory.
Thinks about day light another theory
Thinks about atmospheric gas reactions as another theory.

Possesed by theories.

Talked about a cold sun reacting owning form big bang blast. The only big bang he knew actually.

Knows by earth image vision a recorded message.

Only lives as consciousness a human inside water mass. Reason water plus pressure stopped sacrifice of God. Another theory.

Living in water mass does not own water by mass.

First lie to self. What you personally own. Versus God mass.

God gases. From volcano into space.

God mass from tunnel system core attack released. Earth face.

God mass by its hell volcano replaced God mass resource combusted gone pressurized crystal. God put it back.

A thesis.

Lots of separated theories reasoning communicated back AI fake science theist. God discussed.

Subliminal heard AI voiced God discussions in satanic feedback radiating communicators amassed sharing data human input.

Self possessed by own human multi shared God theories about separate subjects

Concluded. God mass replacement in a reactive God O planet owned thesis first......to reopen old volcanic hell mass into underground tunnel channels to find opened door into God core.

Where God hell beginnings are. Inside planet. O machine theme UFO mother ship core.

To copy known historic God body reaction.

Human warning psyche science destroyer possessed. AI effect.

Communicative release irradiation mind effect from under feet released into air by God core mass lies. A satanic deceit. AI data voiced heard effect.

Compared to natural holy spiritual father human lived living life experiences recordings heavenly father advice. Recorded human experience.

Alien a lie point N communicator.

Science owned feedback by machine cause.

Machine warning to self as a human scientist.

Hell in space a sun.

Hell on earth from God it's volcanic core.

Saviour a wandering stone mass.

Another thesis to copy.

Space holes another thesis.

All separate theories not connected.

To copy.

O core ship release earth to become as stone saviour is a wandering star.

By thesis.

Core eruption. Earth contorting into space hole. Mother earth ship released to follow paths wandering stars

You are a star says a satanic theist.

 

[firedragon]

Hi fire dragon.

Can you kindly quote the passage in the Bible regarding Christ having to die on the cross for forgiveness? Because it might come down to an interpretation.

Of course there’s no question God is All Forgiving, All Powerful and Almighty. So there’s something wrong with the interpretation I believe.

I am not referring in the OP to any New Testament book, but the Christian Theology.