-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Can God have a Son?
- Thread starter AhmadSyahir
- Start date
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No .. he's not wrong .. it's a matter of when .. only Almighty God knows that, but there are many detailed signs.
It's difficult to interpret Book of Revelation, but overall, it is in agreement with Hadith ( sayings of Prophet Muhammad ). He told us that Jesus, son of Mary would return to become 'an earthly King'
ie. the Messiah
riest:Nevertheless, this would be the last major intervention from God .. the whole world will become peaceful, balanced, and it will be difficult to find somebody to accept charity :bow:
"satan will be chained in a pit for 1000 years" - Revelation
After this, there will be a gradual decrease in faith, and eventually the world will end .. there will only be a handful of believers left then (just as when Jesus, son of Mary came 2000yrs, ago) .. the mountains will crumble, the sun will rise from the west .. and .. :thud:
By Reading the gospels
I don't think so. Do you have a record of a religion called Judaism at the time? The Yahudi are assumed to be from the tribe descended from Judah. We use the term Jew and Jewish now to refer to any claiming to have descended from Abraham. That's nothing to do with their religion. Jesus lived in the Provence of Judea. Maybe he was descended from Abraham, maybe not. Jew is a name we apply to people living in the area at the time. That doesn't imply anything about their religion. Judaism as a religion started after the first century. They claim roots to the official religion of Abraham however so does Christianity. Saying Jesus was a Jew is like saying I am an American because that is were I was born. It doesn't say anything about my religious belief.
Yes, we already went over this. You think you are saying something different?
Ok but the point is we got to keep on living, working, supporting ourselves and each other in the mean time.
It's difficult to interpret Book of Revelation, but overall, it is in agreement with Hadith ( sayings of Prophet Muhammad ). He told us that Jesus, son of Mary would return to become 'an earthly King'
ie. the Messiah
I'll give that it is difficult. I try reading it and I have no idea what it is about. I've heard a lot of different interpretations but it takes knowledge not evident in revelations itself.
Maybe, and when/if it happens, then maybe I'll understand, finally. If I'm too slow, didn't get it, screwed up with God completely, sorry, tried the best I could.
....and after Satan will be released from the abyss to deceive the nations,
there is an un-numbered amount of people [Rev 20v8,9; Jer 33v22]
as the 'sand of the sea' can not be numbered. So, there is an unknown amount of people. Unknown does not have to mean majority but just can't count how many. Verse 9 says those rebels will come to a finish.
There is No crumbling of earth mentioned. As King Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes [1v4 B] that the earth will abide or remain forever.
It is the wicked that are destroyed Not the planet. [Psalm 92v7]
Isaiah [45v18] wrote God created the established earth to be inhabited.
Jesus has earthly subjects from sea to sea. -Psalm 72v8.
They are the humble meek that will inherit the earth. -Psalm 37vs11,29
Earth will be like the Garden of Eden -Rev. 22v2.
Rev. 21 vs4,5 gives a description of the paradisaic conditions of Eden.
Like in Eden, once more there will be: No pain, No tears, No death.
No death means everlasting life.
Before the start of Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth,
at Matthew [25vs31,32,40], those living humble 'sheep'-like people can gain everlasting life right into the start of Jesus millennial reign over earth,
and they can remain alive forever because, as verse 46 says,
they go into everlasting life. Everlasting earthly life, a deathless life,
a sinless life of earthly blessings just as God promised to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. Blessed with curing or healing of the nations.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Really!? What difference does it make, anyway?
"The righteous will inherit the earth" .. whether this one, or any other. Almighty God will ressurect ALL of us .. it's easy for Him, as He created us (the first time), and He is able to create as many 'planet earths' as you may desire
NB. Quoting willy-nilly from Scriptures to try to prove a point is not illuminating .. the context of the verses is lost.
Last edited:
I asked a Christian pastor, "If God impregnated Mary, doesn't that imply that God has male XY DNA chromosomes and is therefore a male? and even further that God must also be a middle eastern male as opposed to an African male or a South American male?"
The pastor's reply: "Those rules don't apply for God."
The pastor's reply: "Those rules don't apply for God."
According to Scripture not ALL resurrected but some destroyed.
The wicked are destroyed forever. -Psalm 92v7
Matthew [20v28] wrote that esus ransom covers 'many' Not ALL.
It will be 'all' EXCEPT for those committing the unforgivable sin.
[Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6]
We do agree the righteous 'willy-nilly from Scripture' will inherit the earth.
Inherit a paradisaic earth under Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Do you understand what I mean by "willy-nilly"?
If not, I'll expand .. I'm referring to quoting 1 or 2 verses from one chapter, and then quoting out of a different chapter or even section (ie. Psalms or NT etc.)
To get a proper understanding, we need to consider one quote at a time, and consider a whole passage in its context.
. . .
For example, you quote:
The wicked are destroyed forever. -Psalm 92v7
If we think about it, particularly in the light of what we know Jesus told us about the next life, we can see that it probably means the wicked will be destroyed .. FOREVER!
ie. they will not continue to prosper as they appear to be in the present
7 When the wicked flourish as a herb, And blossom do all workers of iniquity -- For their being destroyed for ever and ever!
Psalm 92 -Young's literal translation
You jump to conclusions, that our souls/spirit will cease to exist .. :no:
To take one verse, and claim it means 'what you want it to mean', without acknowledging other verses, such as:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented
- Luke 16 - KJV
does not lead to THE WHOLE TRUTH
Last edited:
Do you understand what I mean by "willy-nilly"?
If not, I'll expand .. I'm referring to quoting 1 or 2 verses from one chapter, and then quoting out of a different chapter or even section (ie. Psalms or NT etc.)
To get a proper understanding, we need to consider one quote at a time, and consider a whole passage in its context.
For example, you quote:
The wicked are destroyed forever. -Psalm 92v7
If we think about it, particularly in the light of what we know Jesus told us about the next life, we can see that it probably means the wicked will be destroyed .. FOREVER!
ie. they will not continue to prosper as they appear to be in the present
7 When the wicked flourish as a herb, And blossom do all workers of iniquity -- For their being destroyed for ever and ever!
Psalm 92 -Young's literal translation
You jump to conclusions, that our souls/spirit will cease to exist .. :no:
To take one verse, and claim it means 'what you want it to mean', without acknowledging other verses, such as:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented
- Luke 16 - KJV
does not lead to THE WHOLE TRUTH
Jumping to conclusions seldom leads to happy endings.
What does Matthew [12v32] say ?__________
What does Hebrews [6 vs4-6] say ?_________
Luke [16vs19-25] is an illustration or parable meaning Not literal.
According to Matthew [13 vs34,35] Jesus would Not speak to the people without a parable or illustration.
Psalm [92v7] says the wicked will be destroyed.
Psalm [37v38] says transgressors will be destroyed.
The end of the wicked will be cut off.
Who remains according to Proverbs [2vs21,22] ?
Hebrews [2v14 B] says about wicked Satan that he will be destroyed.
What is Jesus going to do to the wicked according to Isaiah [11v4 B] ?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
OK .. so why would Jesus use such a parable? Why wouldn't he just simply tell us that their 'souls' no longer existed?
No! You are being deceived .. the Bible mentions this same concept of hell in many, many places.
You're just believing what you want to believe
ie. that there is no hell
There sure is a "hell on earth" for many of us, right now! :help:
Well, I would consider that somebody who ends up in hell is very much destroyed! :help:
Last edited:
javajo
Well-Known Member
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mathew 1
Here we see that God left the glory of Heaven and took on human form as the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world. I believe only God in human form was worthy as the lamb without spot or blemish to pay the penalty of sin, which is death. Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins by dying on the cross so whoever trusts him for that may be freely and eternally saved. That is the simplicity and truth of the Gospel (Good News). In the Bible we see God expressed in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, in whose name we are to witness of his death, burial and resurrection for remission of sins of all who believe in Him. That's my belief from my understanding of scripture.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mathew 1
Here we see that God left the glory of Heaven and took on human form as the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world. I believe only God in human form was worthy as the lamb without spot or blemish to pay the penalty of sin, which is death. Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins by dying on the cross so whoever trusts him for that may be freely and eternally saved. That is the simplicity and truth of the Gospel (Good News). In the Bible we see God expressed in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, in whose name we are to witness of his death, burial and resurrection for remission of sins of all who believe in Him. That's my belief from my understanding of scripture.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I come from a C of E background .. I can't say that I used to really believe that or understand it .. but I went to church, and had a firm belief in God.
When I discovered Islam, I relaised that the above belief is actually incorrect, and that Jesus is NOT God (or ''God in the flesh' .. is there any difference??)
It really doesn't make any sense for God to "die" on a cross :no:
No we don't, it has little to do with the Bible! That's Emperor Constantine's Roman creed:-
In AD 325 Constantine once again held a religious council, summoning the bishops of the east and west to Nicaea. At this council the branch of the Christian faith known as Arianism was condemned as a heresy and the only admissible Christian creed of the day (the Nicene Creed) was precisely defined.
-> Emperor Constantine <-
Which concept of hell in many places?
The English word hell comes from Hebrew and Greek words:
The Hebrew word 'sheol' translated in English as hell is the common grave.
The Greek word 'hades/haides' in English as hell is still the common grave.
Another word in English 'hellfire' is from the word: Gehenna.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed not kept burning forever. So, hellfire [Gehenna] is a fitting symbol of destruction, or being destroyed forever. -Psalm 92v7.
While Jesus was hell [Acts 2vs27,31] Jesus was a lifeless soul.
When God resurrected Jesus then Jesus again was a living soul.
Unlike Adam, Jesus come from the spirit realm and when resurrected Jesus returned to the spirit realm or heavenly realm.
The expression 'hell on earth' is not found in Scripture.
People just come to understand that expression to mean horrific conditions.
Whereas while in the 'biblical hell' the dead sleep the unconscious sleep of death. [Ecclesiastes 9v5; Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; John 11vs11-14]
Was Jesus destroyed [annihilated] while Jesus was in the Bible's hell [sheol] ?
Because Jesus was resurrected out of hell, that does Not show destruction but shows a resurrection back to life or living again.
The story or parable/illustration of Luke 16v14 is directed to the false religious leaders [Pharisees]
They were rich spiritually but now the tables would be turned.
Now the common Lazarus people would now have God's favor.
The haughty covetous money-loving Pharisees experience a figurative death tormented by divine disfavor because Jesus followers would Not water down God's message for them.
Now the humble repenting Lazarus people experience a dramatic reversal,
or to a good or favorable change of condition.
Which was when the old law covenant was replace by a new covenant,
and the new commandment [John 13vs34,35] to love as Jesus loved.
The common people would no longer be spiritually deprived eating spiritual crumbs off of the rich-man Pharisee table.
Now the common people would be fed a spiritual banquet.
You are correct because what the Bible really teaches is that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3v14.
God is uncreated and is Creator.
Even the resurrected heavenly Jesus still considers himself to be the Son of God according to Revelation 2v18.
The heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him. Rev. 3v12.
Gospel writer Luke wrote that wolf-like clergy, dressed in sheep clothing, would fleece the flock of God. - Acts 20vs29,30.
Jesus also taught how genuine 'wheat' Christians would grow together over the centuries with fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the harvest time.
Harvest comes at the end, and Jesus, as Shepherd, at the end time of all badness on earth separates people placing righteous ones, so to speak, at his right hand of favor. -Matthew 25 vs31,32,37.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Still doing it .. flipping from one place to another, asserting your assumptions that have no bearing upon truth / reality..
What's so difficult to understand about the existence of hell (as well as heaven) ?
Is it that you find it difficult to comprehend 'a loving God' that would "torture" His creatures?
Nay! It's mankind that wrong their own souls .. Almighty God doesn't wrong anybody IN THE LEAST!
Why should God "appoint" suffering in this life, but not in the next?
It's easy to "twist" religious belief to suit ourselves .. there are around 200 sects of Abrahamic religion..
Almighty God does not like those who mislead others..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them
that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and
worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she
made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his
image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the
cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Revelation 14 -
Last edited:
Revelation is written in very vivid word pictures.
A lot of Revelation is highly symbolic and by comparing with corresponding or reference verses we can more clearly define Revelation.
The Torment of verse 10 corresponds to Rev. 20v10.
Please notice it is the devil [not people] who is cast into the lake of fire.
The definition of the lake of fire is found in verse 14 and is: second death.
The fire and brimstone[sulphur] corresponds to Rev. 21v8 'second death'.
The smoke of their torment [not torture] forever is like the smoke of Edom.
Is Edom still smoking today ? No, but Isaiah [34v10] says Edom's smoke would ascend forever meaning the destruction of Edom was permanent.
So, it shall be with the wicked or goat-like people of Matthew [25v46]
they go away into everlasting punishment. [does not say flames]
2nd Thessalonians equates everlasting punishment with everlasting destruction.
Psalm 92v7 also mentions everlasting destruction for the wicked.
Even Satan is destroyed by Jesus according to the second chapter of Hebrews verse 14 B. Destroyed in second death. -Rev 21v8.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Absolutely .. but can God have "a son"?
If the answer is yes, will 'this son' inherit his father's kingdom when he dies? :foot:
ie. what do you mean by son??
Didn't Jesus end up in hell ?
Was Jesus destroyed while in the biblical hell [sheol] ?
According to Acts [2vs27,31,32; Psalm 16v10] Jesus ended up in hell [sheol]
In Scripture 'son' is someone who has a father.
Besides angelic sons, Adam was considered 'son' at Luke 3v38
On the other hand Jesus was considered 'Son' as in only-begotten Son of God.
Jesus had a pre-human existence that is why Jesus could say before Abraham was he was. He was God's first heavenly creation [Rev 3v14] and as God being Jesus' life giver [Father], then Jesus could rightly be called Son.
According to Rev [2v18] Jesus still considers himself to be the Son of God.
Since Jesus was resurrected by God then Jesus will not die.
Jesus is reigning king of God's kingdom only for a limited period of time because according to 1st Corinthians [15vs24-28] the time will come when Jesus will hand back [deliver up] God's kingdom back to God.