Can God have a Son?

[muhammad_isa]

To AhmadSyahir:

If you are referring to the Abrahamic god, and if this god is all-powerful (omnipotent) and he can do everything and there is no limit to what he can do, then I don't see why it is not possible.

This is false logic .. well, worse than that actually. It effectively makes what we consider as logic equal to nonsense!

If the meaning of 'omnipotent' means for example, that God can make Himself "not exist', then He wouldn't be omniscient or eternal etc.

Conclusion
Defining omnipotent in the way that you are creates logical impossibilities. If you wish to do that, you will never find truth, as religious knowledge can't possibly be understood if omnipotence incudes "the logically impossible" (as opposed to the "physically" impossible), and so you might as well make it all up

 

[AhmadSyahir]

Well, I guess it can depend on how the person died, as well, if they bloated quickly. Or how long they were above ground before being buried.

Muslim is buried in the same day and were not preserved like Pharaoh. They will be buried in a white cloth and fragrance(to keep it from bad odor). It just pure soil, cloth and corpse. It's somehow cannot be explained.

There's also some cases that the corpse itself become heavier that it's hard to send them to the Graveyard. After they arrived at the graveyard, the grave hole itself does not fit the corpse and after a series of enlargement, they decided to just bury the corpse in that small hole.

There's also a man that buried for 3 days(if I'm not mistaken) but it turns out that he is not dead yet. Creepy right? It's on the front page of the news. I don't think that any scientific can describe this. We all should learn from the sign of God.

Here is another sign. A male baby born with Quranic verse on his body in Russia. The parents decided to stay shut about it, but after reading a line that warn them not to conceal, they spread the words and it's on the Russian
TV news.

Not even scientific can describe supernatural.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

This is false logic .. well, worse than that actually. It effectively makes what we consider as logic equal to nonsense!

If the meaning of 'omnipotent' means for example, that God can make Himself "not exist', then He wouldn't be omniscient or eternal etc.

Conclusion
Defining omnipotent in the way that you are creates logical impossibilities. If you wish to do that, you will never find truth, as religious knowledge can't possibly be understood if omnipotence incudes "the logically impossible" (as opposed to the "physically" impossible), and so you might as well make it all up

Good point brother.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Good point brother.

Would you also agree: God can Not lie ?

Titus 1v2

 

[AhmadSyahir]

Would you also agree: God can Not lie ?

Titus 1v2

Would you agree if I'm a muslim and not a Christians?
But I do agree with you that it say God cannot lie in Titus 1v2..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Would you agree if I'm a muslim and not a Christians?
But I do agree with you that it say God cannot lie in Titus 1v2..

We can both agree that Titus is saying 'God can not lie'
But do you believe that God can not lie?

 

[Nakosis]

This is false logic .. well, worse than that actually. It effectively makes what we consider as logic equal to nonsense!

If the meaning of 'omnipotent' means for example, that God can make Himself "not exist', then He wouldn't be omniscient or eternal etc.

Conclusion
Defining omnipotent in the way that you are creates logical impossibilities. If you wish to do that, you will never find truth, as religious knowledge can't possibly be understood if omnipotence incudes "the logically impossible" (as opposed to the "physically" impossible), and so you might as well make it all up

Ok then, is it logically or physically impossible for God to have a son. I don't think this is on the same level as asking if God can make himself not exist.

Could God have a son if he wanted to have a son? It's not like asking God to create a rock he can't lift.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok then, is it logically or physically impossible for God to have a son. I don't think this is on the same level as asking if God can make himself not exist.
Could God have a son if he wanted to have a son? It's not like asking God to create a rock he can't lift.

The Bible does Not teach that God literally fathered a Son named Jesus by means of Mary. Rather that God created the heavenly spirit person who was later sent to earth by God to be born to Mary. Because God is the Creator of Jesus, then, in that sense, God is rightly called as Jesus' Father.

-Revelation 3v14 B- Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ok then, is it logically or physically impossible for God to have a son .. It's not like asking God to create a rock he can't lift.

That's true..
Is it physically or logically impossible? Well, is Almighty God physical?
Ans. -> NO!

So what would "God having a son" logically mean?
Was God born?
Ans. -> NO! He's eternal, which means He has no 'father' or 'mother'..

Which leads us to .. Is God a male or female?
What IS a male & female? Isn't it about procreation? So why should God be either? Doesn't it make more sense that God is neither male or female? I mean .. what does male or female mean in a 'spiritual sense'? ie. God has no physical parts or hormones etc.

The sense in which Jesus (peace be with him), is 'the son of God', surely must be the same sense in which we are ALL 'sons & daughters of God'
ie. He created us .. He's our Father

Jesus did not teach that He was God (or effectively 'a god'), He taught us the Lord's prayer:

'Our Father, whom art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name..

ie. He taught us to worship GOD, not himself!

 

[AhmadSyahir]

We can both agree that Titus is saying 'God can not lie'
But do you believe that God can not lie?

God is all powerful mean that God can do anything and don't have human limitation. So God can create everything but he doesn't have need to give birth.
Same goes to lie. He has no need to lie because he own everything.

 

[Nakosis]

That's true..
Is it physically or logically impossible? Well, is Almighty God physical?
Ans. -> NO!

So what would "God having a son" logically mean?
Was God born?
Ans. -> NO! He's eternal, which means He has no 'father' or 'mother'..

Which leads us to .. Is God a male or female?
What IS a male & female? Isn't it about procreation? So why should God be either? Doesn't it make more sense that God is neither male or female? I mean .. what does male or female mean in a 'spiritual sense'? ie. God has no physical parts or hormones etc.

The sense in which Jesus (peace be with him), is 'the son of God', surely must be the same sense in which we are ALL 'sons & daughters of God'
ie. He created us .. He's our Father

Jesus did not teach that He was God (or effectively 'a god'), He taught us the Lord's prayer:

'Our Father, whom art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name..

ie. He taught us to worship GOD, not himself!

I was thinking more along the lines of Adam. Also in the OT there were sons of God, the Nephilim. These sons fathered heroes with the daughters of men, like the Hercules myths. I'm assuming an omnipotent being could take human form if they so choose to.

What's the Muslim concept of God? Is it anthropomorphized at all? Does God have feelings like humans, desires, get angry etc?

The concepts of God seem a bit arbitrary from religion to religion exactly how human like God tends to be.

I tend to think God is unknowable so try to make few claims as to God's nature.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I was thinking more along the lines of Adam. Also in the OT there were sons of God, the Nephilim. These sons fathered heroes with the daughters of men, like the Hercules myths. I'm assuming an omnipotent being could take human form if they so choose to.

The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.).

The concepts of God seem a bit arbitrary from religion to religion exactly how human like God tends to be.

Well, the making of mankind "in God's image" is meant spiritually, so that's how we understand concepts like morality & responsibility, for example .. but there's no physical likeness .. God isn't physical!
. . .
You say that God could take on human form as He is omnipotent .. is this supposed to convince anybody that Jesus is God (or the son of God, God in the flesh .. whatever..)?

There are too many logical reasons why Almighty God wouldn't do that .. it's very confusing, for starters

ie. "Your God is One God, and worship none but me" .. but then we're supposed to assume that 'nephilim' might be God .. Moses might be God .. or Jesus might be God .. or "one of us" might be God

And why three? why the trinity? A 'bit' suspicious that Greek/Roman culture already had this concept in paganism!

 

[Nakosis]

The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.).

I assume if Jesus meant anything he also meant it figuratively.

Well, the making of mankind "in God's image" is meant spiritually, so that's how we understand concepts like morality & responsibility, for example .. but there's no physical likeness .. God isn't physical!
. . .

I have no idea what was originally meant. I suspect that the common thinking was the ruler, king was the son of God. Not saying this is right only that it makes sense to what I know about early religions.

You say that God could take on human form as He is omnipotent .. is this supposed to convince anybody that Jesus is God (or the son of God, God in the flesh .. whatever..)?

No, just that it is possible.

There are too many logical reasons why Almighty God wouldn't do that .. it's very confusing, for starters

ie. "Your God is One God, and worship none but me" .. but then we're supposed to assume that 'nephilim' might be God .. Moses might be God .. or Jesus might be God .. or "one of us" might be God

If there is a God he seems to have a panache for keeping humans confused and guessing. Logic would seem to dictate he'd make himself a little more evident to common folk if he really wanted people to believe in him. Why rely on Prophets. Some individual a thousand or so years nobody living today actually knew nor have any reason to trust.

And why three? why the trinity? A 'bit' suspicious that Greek/Roman culture already had this concept in paganism!

I think it obvious Christianity was greatly influenced by the Greeks and Romans, but maybe the Greeks and Romans were right. Why couldn't their beliefs be as valid as anyone else's?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think it obvious Christianity was greatly influenced by the Greeks and Romans, but maybe the Greeks and Romans were right. Why couldn't their beliefs be as valid as anyone else's?

What .. you mean their original pagan 'gods' are right / true, instead of the one God of Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (peace be with them)?

Or .. do you mean that 3 (trinity) is indeed a special number, and applies to God just as much as it does to their previous pagan 'gods' ?

 

[Nakosis]

What .. you mean their original pagan 'gods' are right / true, instead of the one God of Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (peace be with them)?

Or .. do you mean that 3 (trinity) is indeed a special number, and applies to God just as much as it does to their previous pagan 'gods' ?

There's a lot of belief out their is various concepts of God. Like Mormons believe some may become Gods and receive worship from their own worlds someday. Heathen believe in a pantheon of old Norse Gods. Wicca believes in a few Gods.

Who's to say the Bible or Qur'an have the correct understanding of God?

In the case of Mormons, God could have a lot of sons, and daughters?

The trinity to me seems a much older belief. Existing long before Hebrew belief.

OK, Muslims rely on the concept that Mohammad had the authority to speak for God, Christians, Jesus, Mormons Joseph Smith, Hebrews, Moses.

Why pick anyone of them over the other?

You're basing your concept of of God on the Qur'an? What do we humans know about God. So how do you know who to trust? Just pick a Prophet and hope for the Best?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God is all powerful mean that God can do anything and don't have human limitation. So God can create everything but he doesn't have need to give birth.
Same goes to lie. He has no need to lie because he own everything.

Agree, not to give birth as we might generally define birth.

When Scripture speaks of being first born does Not always mean in the terms relating to natural birth, but birth in a figurative sense. Even in a spiritual sense.

Psalm 90v2 [mountains were brought forth, but not a literal birth of them]
Isaiah 66v8 [nation be born at once]
James 1v15 [lust conceives and brings forth [births] sin. [sin birth's death]

In a 'spiritual sense' Jesus said one must be born from water and spirit.
-Baptized in water begotten by God's holy spirit.

Hebrews [12v23] mentions the 'congregation of the firstborn'
meaning the first congregation accepted by God after Christ was resurrected.

Israel was God's' firstborn nation' because of God's promise to Abraham
-Exodus 4v22

Psalm [89vs20,27] in referring to David as God's servant,
verse 27 says David is first born. Since David was Not literally first born,
then that Psalm foreshadows God's firstborn Son in heaven .
Messiah like David is God's servant.
-Ezekiel 34vs23,24

So, heavenly Jesus, before being sent to earth, being referred to as firstborn distinguishes Jesus from all other creation. First to be created in the heavens, and first born [first begotten] from the dead meaning first to be resurrected.
-Col 1vs15,18; Rev 3v14; 1v5

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Um, Lazarus was first to be resurrected.

Details, details...

 

[gnostic]

This is false logic .. well, worse than that actually. It effectively makes what we consider as logic equal to nonsense!

If the meaning of 'omnipotent' means for example, that God can make Himself "not exist', then He wouldn't be omniscient or eternal etc.

Conclusion
Defining omnipotent in the way that you are creates logical impossibilities. If you wish to do that, you will never find truth, as religious knowledge can't possibly be understood if omnipotence incudes "the logically impossible" (as opposed to the "physically" impossible), and so you might as well make it all up

It is possible and natural for humans to reproduce and have children. There's nothing "logical impossible" about that.

Then why is "logical impossible" for a god to have children of his own?

Even if he (this god) was spirit, it doesn't sex the way humans do it. This god, who you think is all-powerful supposedly create this universe, this world, and us humans.

You have to ask yourself is a spirit can create matter, both organic and inorganic. How? And yet something like a child either being reproduce or create, actually make a mockery of god-without-limits.

In the 1st place, I don't actually believe in a god or even in spirit, because if it true what they say about spirits, there is no possible way for spirit or even god-spirit to create matters in the 1st place.

Do you expect me to believe that anything spirit can make physical matter?

Now that's what I think is truly LOGICAL IMPOSSIBLE!

If you say that spirit created a spirit world, then that's logical possible. But I think it is logical impossible and improbable that spirit can create a physical universe.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You're basing your concept of of God on the Qur'an?

No! That is not true .. I'm basing my understanding of God on a spiritual search for truth.

Jesus was a Jew, and most of his disciples were Jewish, and they worshipped in the temple with their Jewish brothers, even though some of 'the elders' opposed Jesus' authority.
The Jews know VERY WELL that GOD IS ONE and is not a human being, and it's only dogma that was forcibly established by emperor Constantine, a shrewd politician, but not particularly knowledgable or pious. What does Jesus say about rich people getting to heaven?
Should we follow them??

In any case, we are all free to follow our own path in life, and decide what is the truth for ourselves, and many people follow what they do as it's "their culture" and is easier to pretend to themselves that something like 'God has a son' makes complete sense (and God is a mystery, and so on), than to change and have to make a lot of sacrifice and be socially disrupted :sad:

 

[Nakosis]

No! That is not true .. I'm basing my understanding of God on a spiritual search for truth.

Ok, just asking... But do have something to go on other then these religious texts?

Jesus was a Jew, and most of his disciples were Jewish, and they worshipped in the temple with their Jewish brothers, even though some of 'the elders' opposed Jesus' authority.

I don't know what Jesus was. He was Judean, doesn't say anything about his beliefs. He obviously didn't agree with some of the other Judean religious groups of the time like the Pharisee or Sadducee. He seemed to hold a different concept of God then the one in the OT.

The Jews know VERY WELL that GOD IS ONE and is not a human being, and it's only dogma that was forcibly established by emperor Constantine, a shrewd politician, but not particularly knowledgable or pious.

The Hebrew also forcibly established their deity above the other Gods of the time. It's documented in the Bible. Don't know one one would think the Hebrew had any greater authority to do this than anyone else.

What does Jesus say about rich people getting to heaven?
Should we follow them??

Yes, well check out the thread on Jesus and Money.

In any case, we are all free to follow our own path in life, and decide what is the truth for ourselves, and many people follow what they do as it's "their culture" and is easier to pretend to themselves that something like 'God has a son' makes complete sense (and God is a mystery, and so on), than to change and have to make a lot of sacrifice and be socially disrupted :sad:

Yes Jesus expected a lot of his disciples. I don't think it is practical except if, like some say, Jesus thought the world was coming to an end. If he did, he was wrong though.