Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[Autodidact]

It doesn't and that isn't what it is saying. Where do you get that from?

Well, I'll let fallingblood sort that out.

O.K., so Jesus "fulfilling" the law doesn't mean that Christians don't have to follow it? So they do then? Have to follow the law? All 613 commandments?

 

[TheKnight]

But isn't that the big difference, that to Christians, Jesus is messiah, whereas Jews are still waiting for messiah?

The difference are far greater than just that one issue.

Jesus fulfilled the law by living by it instead of using to gain some type of favor or advantage with god. Like people in past generations did a lot.

It's not about gaining favor or advantage with God. At least not to any of the people I know who follow the law. It's a lot like a love relationship.


Imagine that you were married and your wife liked certain things and didn't like others. She wanted certain things and didn't want others. You would do the things that made her happy because you love her. And when you didn't do those things, and she got upset, it would hurt you because you love her.

So it is with the observant human being and God. It is out of love for God that we observe the commands. We are not perfect, but that is what it comes down to. It has little to do with advantage or favor.

Failingblood was right about this in the other thread as well. But I'll give you my ideas.

You really don't understand the concept of why Jews follow the commandments. It is not a matter of currying favor or seeking advantage with anyone. It is a matter of: God commanded us, and therefore, we do it.

Since God is the Master of the Universe, there is nothing we can really give God, as God owns everything anyway. What we CAN do to show our love is to live as God commanded us to.

There are many facets to the relationship between the Jews and God. As Song of Songs expresses, the love between us can be like that of a husband and wife, but that is a bit esoteric for my understanding.

God is our Father in Heaven. God is our King. God is our Judge. God is many things, and He does many things.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Harmonious]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you.

 

[Gloone]

When you all are done taking my post out of context and want to have a real debate let me know. My post.

 

[Harmonious]

When you all are done taking my post out of context and want to have a real debate let me know. My post.

I did discuss your post. You chose not to respond to it.

 

[ellenjanuary]

The difference are far greater than just that one issue.

Kinda just realized that there are Messianic Jews recently... I'm kinda slow like that.

 

[Gloone]

I did discuss your post. You chose not to respond to it.

Well evidently you and others have forgotten what this topic is about. We are talking about Jesus, prophets and Jewish Law. Not what you do in your spare time. Not why Jewish people follow Law. I have failed to see any valid reason as to why Jewish people do it based on their religion and understanding of the prophets. So far this debate has been filled with personal opinions and nonsense. That is why I said as soon as you all decided to read my post and not take it out of context then maybe we can have an intelligible debate. Until then I don’t see the point in wasting any more time over this topic. It is going nowhere like the other one did.

 

[Harmonious]

Well evidently you and others have forgotten what this topic is about. We are talking about Jesus, prophets and Jewish Law. Not what you do in your spare time. Not why Jewish people follow Law. I have failed to see any valid reason as to why Jewish people do it based on their religion and understanding of the prophets. So far this debate has been filled with personal opinions and nonsense. That is why I said as soon as you all decided to read my post and not take it out of context then maybe we can have an intelligible debate. Until then I don’t see the point in wasting any more time over this topic. It is going nowhere like the other one did.

What type of response are you looking for?

I responded to you:

Failingblood was right about this in the other thread as well. But I'll give you my ideas.

You really don't understand the concept of why Jews follow the commandments. It is not a matter of currying favor or seeking advantage with anyone. It is a matter of: God commanded us, and therefore, we do it.

Since God is the Master of the Universe, there is nothing we can really give God, as God owns everything anyway. What we CAN do to show our love is to live as God commanded us to.

There are many facets to the relationship between the Jews and God. As Song of Songs expresses, the love between us can be like that of a husband and wife, but that is a bit esoteric for my understanding.

God is our Father in Heaven. God is our King. God is our Judge. God is many things, and He does many things.

That is the answer.

I don't see your reaction to Moses and the Golden Calf as one worth discussing, as it is a matter of interpretation.

Would you like me to go on about why your interpretation is wrong, and then we can go back and forth, "I'm right and you're wrong"? I rather thought such a thing was pointless.

Instead, I explained the answer to your question.

 

[fallingblood]

Well evidently you and others have forgotten what this topic is about. We are talking about Jesus, prophets and Jewish Law. Not what you do in your spare time. Not why Jewish people follow Law. I have failed to see any valid reason as to why Jewish people do it based on their religion and understanding of the prophets. So far this debate has been filled with personal opinions and nonsense. That is why I said as soon as you all decided to read my post and not take it out of context then maybe we can have an intelligible debate. Until then I don’t see the point in wasting any more time over this topic. It is going nowhere like the other one did.

So far, the posts have fulfilled the purpose of this thread. The answer to the question posed, was no. You stated a different opinion, but based it partially on a faulty idea and an ignorance as to why Jews practice the laws God sent down.

As for the quote you posted from Matthew, it actually shows that Jesus maintained the idea that his followers had to follow the laws. It specifically states that one is to follow all the laws, even the least of them. So it actually supported the opposite of what you're saying.

 

[Harmonious]

But if it means that much to you, I'll try for what I think you're going for.

Jesus fulfilled the law by living by it instead of using to gain some type of favor or advantage with god.

I would say that most Jews fulfill the law by living it. Motivations can be useful, but it is far more important that Jews do the right thing than do it for the right reasons. But the right reasons can be good, too. And Jesus had trouble following the commandments to start with.

Like people in past generations did a lot. An example is Moses getting the commandments from god then seeing everyone dancing around a statue of a cow and he went into an outrage broke then tablets then killed 1,000s of his own people before going back up to the top of the mountain and rewriting the commandments a second time and bringing them forth to his people.

There are so many things wrong with that sentence, I don't know where to begin to correct you.

The punishment for idolatry is death, and Moses punished the Jewish people as God commanded. There was no "going into an outrage" and killing everyone in a rampage.

Moses didn't "write" the commandments. He took dictation from God.



Is this what you wanted?

He basically rebelled and went against god’s word then acted as if he had something to establish with his people after killing them.

No, not really.

Did you really want a whole, "I'm right, you're wrong" thing? It does get tiresome. You will disagree with me, and I can't offer you anything other than "That's what YOU believe" vs. "that's what I believe."

To me practicing and teaching does not mean standing in front of an altar every Sunday and reading from a book and acting like you know something the rest of the world doesn’t.

That isn't what practicing and teaching means to me, either.

 

[Ilisrum]

I have failed to see any valid reason as to why Jewish people do it based on their religion and understanding of the prophets.

You're joking, right?

 

[Gloone]

But if it means that much to you, I'll try for what I think you're going for.
I would say that most Jews fulfill the law by living it. Motivations can be useful, but it is far more important that Jews do the right thing than do it for the right reasons. But the right reasons can be good, too. And Jesus had trouble following the commandments to start with.

What is or was so different than how Jesus fulfilled the law and how Jewish people did or supposedly claim to?

To Fulfill;
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

Fulfill | Define Fulfill at Dictionary.com

What is the Jewish definition of fulfill and how did it differ from how Jesus might have fulfilled prophecy or laws?

 

[Gloone]

So far, the posts have fulfilled the purpose of this thread.

Based on what?

 

[Autodidact]

What is or was so different than how Jesus fulfilled the law and how Jewish people did or supposedly claim to?

To Fulfill;
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

Fulfill | Define Fulfill at Dictionary.com

What is the Jewish definition of fulfill and how did it differ from how Jesus might have fulfilled prophecy or laws?

Exactly. There is no difference. So why did Jesus' actions in effect cancel these laws?

 

[Harmonious]

What is or was so different than how Jesus fulfilled the law and how Jewish people did or supposedly claim to?

Are you asking me about the sins Jesus committed? Or are you asking me if Jesus was just like any other Jew? Because I can promise you that when it came to fulfilling commandments, Jesus was nothing special.

I know it says differently in Matthew, but I've read all four gospels. He wasn't very good at fulfilling the commandments.

What is the Jewish definition of fulfill and how did it differ from how Jesus might have fulfilled prophecy or laws?

Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies, so that is a useless question.

Are you asking me to catalogue Jesus' sins? Are you asking me to explain the simple "he did the commandments like any other Jew" thing? Are you asking me to explain why Jesus' performance of commandments doesn't take away the requirement of Jews to perform the commandments?

What exactly are you asking me?

 

[Harmonious]

Based on what?

He is the OP. If he got the response he was looking for, then the posts have fulfilled the purpose of this thread.

 

[Gloone]

Are you asking me about the sins Jesus committed? Or are you asking me if Jesus was just like any other Jew? Because I can promise you that when it came to fulfilling commandments, Jesus was nothing special.

I know it says differently in Matthew, but I've read all four gospels. He wasn't very good at fulfilling the commandments.


Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies, so that is a useless question.

Are you asking me to catalogue Jesus' sins? Are you asking me to explain the simple "he did the commandments like any other Jew" thing? Are you asking me to explain why Jesus' performance of commandments doesn't take away the requirement of Jews to perform the commandments?

What exactly are you asking me?

Yes tell me all the reasons why Jesus was a sinner.

 

[Gloone]

He is the OP. If he got the response he was looking for, then the posts have fulfilled the purpose of this thread.

Okay well he got the Jewish response he was looking for I guess he wasn't really wanting to debate anything.

 

[Harmonious]

Yes tell me all the reasons why Jesus was a sinner.

I'll post again in the daylight hours, EST. But a quick rundown: he had no respect for Shabbat. He had no problem humiliating people when it suited his purpose. He indulged in petty name-calling and slander.

He killed a fruit tree in a fit of pique.

He overturned the money-tables in the Temple RIGHT BEFORE PASSOVER, assaulted the individuals he didn't quite rebuke, and sent away the animals to be sold. Theft.

He swayed people away from burying their dead parents and had follow him instead.

He disrespected his mother.

He committed idolatry on the level of the Golden Calf by declaring that none could get through to God but through him.

And these are only the ones off the top of my head.

Yes, there were other people sinning. But these are the sins the gospels recorded that Jesus did.

 

[Gloone]

I'll post again in the daylight hours, EST. But a quick rundown: he had no respect for Shabbat. He had no problem humiliating people when it suited his purpose. He indulged in petty name-calling and slander.

He killed a fruit tree in a fit of pique.

He overturned the money-tables in the Temple RIGHT BEFORE PASSOVER.

He swayed people away from burying their dead parents and had follow him instead.

He disrespected his mother.

He committed idolatry on the level of the Golden Calf by declaring that none could get through to God but through him.

And these are only the ones off the top of my head.

I am starting to like this Jesus guy already. You will have to tell me more later.