Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[Harmonious]

No they are baby trees that haven’t had a chance to start growing yet.

Intent counts. Further, you're not Jewish, so that law doesn't pertain to you.

Okay so Mother Nature can do whatever Mother Nature wants.

Hey - you are the one giving nature a human nature. If you are trying to say God can do what God wants, and then say that Jesus could do what he wants because you believe Jesus is god, it isn't going to work.

God isn't Jewish. Jesus was. Jesus was as bound by Jewish law as any other Jew, no matter what else you believe about him.

Yeah he forgave people for condemning him to death for accusing him of being a sinner.

Well, he was a sinner. He forgave people for wronging him, good for him.

How can you say Jesus had no business trying to better his community and help his Jewish brethren and sistren, but Jewish people today do?

I didn't say he couldn't try to better his community.

I said he had no business trying to change the commandments.

I also said that unlike the Rabbis, who merely ENFORCED the laws, Jesus tried to erase, ignore, or totally turn laws upside down. He had no business changing the law that God gave the Jews.

How did Jesus make a mockery of Jewish commandments?

You failed to see what he said about divorce. What he said about burying one's parents. What he said about Rabbis in the marketplace.

There is a way to deliver rebuke. Jesus went about it in such a wrong way that he committed more sins in his delivery than he actually "fixed" if people listened to him.

I fail to see how that is even possible.

Of course.

God telling people not to worship idols, and not kill people then commanding people to burn down cities that has idols and destroy those peoples way of life sounds totally opposite of what was originally taught. Maybe you can explain why something like that is within the bounds of reason for Jewish law.

You know... There is such a thing as due process. Nothing was quite so simple as that. It was never up to an individual to do such a thing. That would be murder. The death penalty is NOT murder, though it is killing a person.

It helps to be able to read the Hebrew. It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill." It says "Don't murder."

The word for kill, Harag, is different than the word for murder, Ratzach. One involves ending a life lawfully, and one involves ending a life unlawfully. And in both Decalogues, the verse is "Lo tirtzach," or "No murdering."

And so that you know... There was never a case where any town was burned down due to idol worship in all of Jewish history. It never happened.

Jews are a bit more intimate with the laws than "God told us to do that, and we have to be robots and do what "IT" says, without paying attention to the who, what, where, why, when, and hows about it. In Jewish history, Jews have indeed worshiped idols. Yup. Jews have rebelled against God. No question.

But never in all of Jewish history have Jews been in such a position, either as the idol worshipers or as the punishers, such that a town was burned down due to idol worship.

Due process is part of how to follow through with things like that. THAT is how something like that is within the bounds of reason for Jewish law.

He taught the original commandments.

Ah. You are of the mind that Jesus is God, and therefore taught the Jews the commandments. That explains that.

But you see, as far as anyone who isn't Christian (and even Christians who don't agree with your point of view) goes, Jesus was NOT God. As far as Jews go, Jesus was just a man, deluded by his own sense of grandeur, if the gospels are to be believed.

And he was NOT very good at following the commandments.

 

[Harmonious]

Let me refine my thoughts on the matter that I addressed before.

Yes I do know enough about Jewish Law. People at the time must have had problems with who and who not to have sex with, like animals, family, and w/e. Men at the time must have had a problems with wanting to wear womens clothing. People must have had a problem with worshiping idols, people must have had a problem with worshiping more than one god and evidently somebody or someone decided to make a law to tell people no, you are not suppose to do that. If anything Jesus gave people a reason to live and breath again. I actually enjoy shaving with a razor blade, I don't think I should be punished for looking sexy with my smooth face.

You are under the mistaken impression that the laws were given so that Jews could develop into a moral people. Without the laws, there were no morals. So when you "outgrow" the laws, you no longer need them to tell you what to do.

The reality of the matter is that each Jewish law is a multifaceted treasure. There are nuances of every matter. Family purity is a big one. It is far more intense than who may sleep with whom. I'm not going into detail here, first of all because you wouldn't appreciate it, and second of all, the details are a bit graphic. But every time a Jew appreciates and observes another facet of the law, it is worth more merit.

The laws are not a simple baseline. They are an entire way of life. If you see them only as a list of "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not", I promise you that you are missing the ENTIRE picture. If that is the image you are bringing up when you think of Torah law, it would be easy to see why a person would be anxious to "outgrow" the need for such things.

But as I said, if that is all you think of it, you have entirely missed the point of God giving the commandments to the Jews.

Moses received the commandments from GOD how? Oral translation

Some was written, some was oral tradition, true.

what is he difference between his translation and Jesus.

The difference is that no prophet after Moses was given prophecy to gainsay what God taught Moses.

Every and all prophets, from Joshua to Malachi, sought to remind the Jews of their responsibility to FOLLOW the commandments, as God gave to Moses.

It is clearly stated that if a prophet came to say that any part of what Moses was taught by God was null and void, that is proof positive that it was a false prophet.

So, whenever Jesus said that the law is no longer valid, or any part of what Jesus said gainsaid what God told Moses, it is proof positive that Jesus was a false prophet.

That is the difference between Moses and Jesus.

If you think Jesus was a Pagan then just say so and I will be more than happy to see him that way.

No one said he was pagan. Although he WAS an idolator. He indulged in self-idolatry, trying to say that none can come to God but through him.

I could say that would make him pagan.

 

[Autodidact]

One of the Jewish laws is to burn down any city that has idols.

Really? Where is that law found?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

Matthew 5:18-19 was clear but if Christians choose not to follow the law it shouldn't be a big deal or come to surprise anyone ....considering Yeshua wasn't speaking to them anyway...

 

[Autodidact]

He fulfilled law by making the old laws better. The way they should have been to begin with.

Didn't Jesus Himself, in the persona of God, impose the old laws?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes I do know enough about Jewish Law. People at the time must have had problems with who and who not to have sex with, like animals, family, and w/e. Men at the time must have had a problems with wanting to wear womens clothing. People must have had a problem with worshiping idols, people must have had a problem with worshiping more than one god and evidently somebody or someone decided to make a law to tell people no, you are not suppose to do that. If anything Jesus gave people a reason to live and breath again. I actually enjoy shaving with a razor blade, I don't think I should be punished for looking sexy with my smooth face. Moses received the commandments from GOD how? Oral translation, what is he difference between his translation and Jesus. If you think Jesus was a Pagan then just say so and I will be more than happy to see him that way.

Jesus was a Jew. That is all--a radical Jewish preacher who questioned and rejected existing Jewish law.

 

[Harmonious]

Really? Where is that law found?

Deuteronomy 13:13-19

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well, I'll let fallingblood sort that out.

O.K., so Jesus "fulfilling" the law doesn't mean that Christians don't have to follow it? So they do then? Have to follow the law? All 613 commandments?

:slap:.....no silly, they get to pick and choose the ones they want to....

Shucks...the basic ten is hard enough for them to follow now....what would the do with the other 600+...?

 

[Gloone]

Intent counts. Further, you're not Jewish, so that law doesn't pertain to you.

So now would be the proper time for me to give praise and say; “Thank God!” or “well crap!”?

Hey - you are the one giving nature a human nature. If you are trying to say God can do what God wants, and then say that Jesus could do what he wants because you believe Jesus is god, it isn't going to work.

God isn't Jewish. Jesus was. Jesus was as bound by Jewish law as any other Jew, no matter what else you believe about him.

Wow! Wow! Wow! This is new to me. God isn’t Jewish? So that leaves the door open for there being more than one god for other people to believe in if they are not Jewish.

Well, he was a sinner. He forgave people for wronging him, good for him.

Well I thought Jesus was the perfect angel and you are comparing him to Lucifer.

I didn't say he couldn't try to better his community.

I said he had no business trying to change the commandments.

I also said that unlike the Rabbis, who merely ENFORCED the laws, Jesus tried to erase, ignore, or totally turn laws upside down. He had no business changing the law that God gave the Jews.

So he was a leader not a follower. What is so hard to understand about that.

You failed to see what he said about divorce. What he said about burying one's parents. What he said about Rabbis in the marketplace.

There is a way to deliver rebuke. Jesus went about it in such a wrong way that he committed more sins in his delivery than he actually "fixed" if people listened to him.

Well I read some of the bible and try to make sense of it and never come up with some of the things you come up with honestly.

Jews are a bit more intimate with the laws than "God told us to do that, and we have to be robots and do what "IT" says, without paying attention to the who, what, where, why, when, and hows about it. In Jewish history, Jews have indeed worshiped idols. Yup. Jews have rebelled against God. No question.

See Jewish people have been just as disgraceful as everyone else. That doesn’t mean it should be held against them for an eternity though does it?

Ah. You are of the mind that Jesus is God, and therefore taught the Jews the commandments. That explains that.

But you see, as far as anyone who isn't Christian (and even Christians who don't agree with your point of view) goes, Jesus was NOT God. As far as Jews go, Jesus was just a man, deluded by his own sense of grandeur, if the gospels are to be believed.

And he was NOT very good at following the commandments.

It could just boil down to your interpretation. Do you think Jewish people are Gods people? If so, is that really any different than saying Jesus is a person or son of god.

Didn't Jesus Himself, in the persona of God, impose the old laws?

Yes but he had his own way of teaching them. I guess it was something Jewish people at the time didn’t agree with and still do not.

Deuteronomy 13:13-19

And if you examine this law closely you will notice just how unconventional it is. In other words it is saying if a Jewish person decides to not follow the Jewish god anymore then find the new god they choose to worship and destroy it. What a bunch of a nice people. :areyoucra

 

[Harmonious]

So now would be the proper time for me to give praise and say; “Thank God!” or “well crap!”?

As you will.

Wow! Wow! Wow! This is new to me. God isn’t Jewish? So that leaves the door open for there being more than one god for other people to believe in if they are not Jewish.

Not at all.

God created the world, and is the God of us all. God isn't Jewish, but it hardly stands to reason that God can only be the God of the Jews.

God created Adam and Eve, who weren't Jewish. God rescued Noah, his three sons, and all of their wives. They weren't Jewish, either. As a matter of fact, God created a covenant with Noah, involving seven laws, which can actually expand into an entire justice system.

Jews didn't start until Abraham rediscovered God (as most people in the world forgot about God). Abraham wasn't precisely Jewish, but he was the start of the covenant which would be the covenant shared between himself and God, and his children after him. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all of Jacob's children thereafter.

So, God created two covenants. One with Noah (in other words: all humanity), and one with Abraham (or, the small subset that would eventually become known as Jews).

And both are alive, well, and fully operational today. Whether all people believe in them or not - that is a different matter altogether.

Well I thought Jesus was the perfect angel and you are comparing him to Lucifer.

No. First of all, I don't believe in Lucifer.

Second of all... Jesus was just a man. Nothing more, nothing less. I realize that he is more important in your belief system. But yes, as a human, as a Jew, he wasn't very good at following the commandments that he would otherwise be capable of doing.

So he was a leader not a follower. What is so hard to understand about that.

He was a leader. I get that. However, many of the things he did was horrifically unethical, unkind, and frankly, he wasn't a good role model.

And never did he had the right to attempt to CHANGE Jewish law by dismissing any part of it.

Well I read some of the bible and try to make sense of it and never come up with some of the things you come up with honestly.

If you want me to present you with the laws of Evil Speech and guarding your tongue against that, and show you examples of how Jesus had problems with that, I will. And these are within the Five Books of Moses.

See Jewish people have been just as disgraceful as everyone else.

Yup. We're only human. Some of us do try our best to be the best we can be, however.

That doesn’t mean it should be held against them for an eternity though does it?

No, but that doesn't keep people from doing that.

But if you are referring to Jesus... From what I've read in the gospels, Jesus wasn't anything special, and certainly not a role model for human behavior, certainly not Jewish behavior.

And some of the things he did were indeed unforgivable. If you need examples, I'll give them to you.

It could just boil down to your interpretation. Do you think Jewish people are Gods people?

In so much as God took the time to rescue our forefathers from Egypt, and give us the Torah, and proclaiming us as His Chosen people? Yup.

But does that mean that other people are NOT God's people? No. They are just as much God's people as Jews are. However, Jews were chosen for a specific role, and to fulfill certain commandments that other people were not.

That doesn't make us better or worse, just different.

If so, is that really any different than saying Jesus is a person or son of god.

Because he was human. He isn't any more the son of God than I am the daughter of God.

I realize you might believe otherwise...

And if you examine this law closely you will notice just how unconventional it is. In other words it is saying if a Jewish person decides to not follow the Jewish god anymore then find the new god they choose to worship and destroy it.

Not at all. A Jewish person who decides to follow a false god has separated themselves from the Jewish people. There are several passages that say that idolatry is not only forbidden, but it is punishable by death. And that Jews should choose death over being forced to worship idolatry.

But you see, the hypothetical circumstances that were set up in that passage is simply not provable. As such, it is impossible to have that negative judgment against them.

What a bunch of a nice people. :areyoucra

Or, more to the point... Such people would be worthy of death, but because the circumstances would never allow such a thing to happen, God's infinite mercy spared such idolatrous people from being killed.

I guess it is a matter of perspective.

But why do you say "What a nice bunch of people"? The destruction of a city never happened.

Or, are you questioning the idea that God commanded this to the Jews?

That is your right, of course, but I'm trying to figure out this source of sarcasm.

 

[fallingblood]

There is no such thing. Jewish law cannot be "fulfilled," in such a way that it becomes obsolete for everyone, as a body, forever. There just is no such thing.
"

I didn't think so, but I wanted to make sure. It's come up in a couple of discussion, and I was about positive that Jewish law could not be fulfilled, because it sounds illogical in the first place anyway, but just wanted to double check. Thanks for the information.

 

[fallingblood]

Matthew 5:18-19 was clear but if Christians choose not to follow the law it shouldn't be a big deal or come to surprise anyone ....considering Yeshua wasn't speaking to them anyway...

I think that is a great point.

 

[Autodidact]

I still don't even know what it's supposed to mean. Maybe someone could give me a synonym? What's another word that fits in the blank? Jesus fulfilled the law.

 

[Gloone]

God created Adam and Eve, who weren't Jewish. God rescued Noah, his three sons, and all of their wives. They weren't Jewish, either. As a matter of fact, God created a covenant with Noah, involving seven laws, which can actually expand into an entire justice system.

So there is another system of seven laws that no one is even aware of. Maybe you can give me a link to them, please.

Not at all.

God created the world, and is the God of us all. God isn't Jewish, but it hardly stands to reason that God can only be the God of the Jews.

That is good.

So, God created two covenants. One with Noah (in other words: all humanity), and one with Abraham (or, the small subset that would eventually become known as Jews).

And both are alive, well, and fully operational today. Whether all people believe in them or not - that is a different matter altogether.

Thanks for the response. I can see how there can be two different covenants. I am curious to know why Jewish people decided to follow the small subset and not the larger one.
Is that just the way the chips fell into place or do you think Jewish people were destine for the smaller subset by fate.

No. First of all, I don't believe in Lucifer.

Second of all... Jesus was just a man. Nothing more, nothing less. I realize that he is more important in your belief system. But yes, as a human, as a Jew, he wasn't very good at following the commandments that he would otherwise be capable of doing.

When you are a Trinitarian (or understand the concept of the Trinity) and are non-religious you see and understand things a little differently.

He was a leader. I get that. However, many of the things he did was horrifically unethical, unkind, and frankly, he wasn't a good role model.

And never did he had the right to attempt to CHANGE Jewish law by dismissing any part of it.

This seems to be getting repeated a lot that he tried to change a law or something and we are not making any progress with it. Maybe we can drop this part of the debate.

If you want me to present you with the laws of Evil Speech and guarding your tongue against that, and show you examples of how Jesus had problems with that, I will. And these are within the Five Books of Moses.

Sure if you want, I might actually be interested in debating some of this.

But if you are referring to Jesus... From what I've read in the gospels, Jesus wasn't anything special, and certainly not a role model for human behavior, certainly not Jewish behavior.

And some of the things he did were indeed unforgivable. If you need examples, I'll give them to you.

Okay it is clear that Jesus is not a role model for Jewish children for obvious reasons. What do you think the chances are of Jesus not being born a Jew? Do you think Jewish people would see him differently if he wasn't?

In so much as God took the time to rescue our forefathers from Egypt, and give us the Torah, and proclaiming us as His Chosen people? Yup.

But does that mean that other people are NOT God's people? No. They are just as much God's people as Jews are. However, Jews were chosen for a specific role, and to fulfill certain commandments that other people were not.

That doesn't make us better or worse, just different.

Got it.

Because he was human. He isn't any more the son of God than I am the daughter of God.

I realize you might believe otherwise...

I understand he was human. It almost makes me want to question your fellowship with god though. I actually hold god to a high standard and don’t discredit anyone for who they are or what they believe.
I'm dropping idolatry from this discussion. It seems like a subject that could go in a 100 different directions and I don’t really care to debate it right now. You also seem to have a different interpretation or understanding of idolatry than I.

 

[Gloone]

I still don't even know what it's supposed to mean. Maybe someone could give me a synonym? What's another word that fits in the blank? Jesus fulfilled the law.

There seems to be a different meaning for the word. Right now my own understanding of it is definitely not what other people in this thread have been talking about evidently.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So there is another system of seven laws that no one is even aware of. Maybe you can give me a link to them, please.

Just because YOU are unaware of them doesn't mean "no one is even aware of" them.

Here's a quick and simple overview: http://www.noachide.org.uk/http://www.<b>noach</b>

I am curious to know why Jewish people decided to follow the small subset and not the larger one.
Is that just the way the chips fell into place or do you think Jewish people were destine for the smaller subset by fate.

Pick up your bible, start reading from the first mention of Abraham in Genesis, and read all the way to the end of Deuteronomy. That answers that question.

This seems to be getting repeated a lot that he tried to change a law or something and we are not making any progress with it. Maybe we can drop this part of the debate.

You don't seem to be making any progress because when she mentions it, you just kinda avoid it. You might try asking for specifics. One among many examples Harmonious mentioned was Jesus' position on divorce.

It almost makes me want to question your fellowship with god though.

That's a really crappy thing to say. It's completely uncalled for. You owe Harmonious an apology.

 

[Gloone]

That's a really crappy thing to say. It's completely uncalled for. You owe Harmonious an apology.

Okay! I apologize Harmonious for wanting to question your fellowship with God even though everyone in this thread has been stubborn as a mule towards me. Harmonious you are the only person that has actually made any sense and it seems as if we agree on a few things about everyone being gods people even if they choose not to believe it. Maybe I can get an apology now from everyone that has said something rude to me.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Okay! I apologize Harmonious for wanting to question your fellowship with God even though everyone in this thread has been stubborn as a mule towards me.

That's no excuse. I'm glad that you did the right thing by apologizing, and I hope Harmonious will accept your apology... but when you start making excuses (bad ones at that), it calls into question the sincerity of your apology.

 

[Zardoz]

Getting back to the OP...

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

It doesn't sound right because it's not right. Simply read the 'Sermon on the Mount', and you will see Yeshua was not about 'fulfilling Jewish law' for us, but teaching us how to fulfill Jewish law in our own lives. Not only in the letter of the law (which he fully supports) but in the spirit of the law. For, in the final analysis, it's how the Torah improves you that matters, that's why G-d gave it... for us. To me, his message was clear: 'Where is your heart o Yisrael?' Kevanna.

Kinda just realized that there are Messianic Jews recently... I'm kinda slow like that.

Not at all. We're a minority within a minority, so who knows us? Especially since many so-called 'Messianic Jews' are not Jews at all, but christians. Not that it's a bad thing for Christians to embrace the Jewish roots of their faith, but they shouldn't go about saying they're Jews. Makes it hard on us real Jews, who are Messianic.

 

[Caladan]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

Jewish society is very diverse. going from the most strict to the most liberal, as Harmonious said, as far as I know, Jewish tradition holds that the law was not meant to be fulfilled in its entirety, the idea behind it, is that man can strive just as much, but leaning on God will get him there.
In the modern world, it is anachronistic to try and fulfil a comprehensive system of law as the Jewish law. I keep it very basic, I receive the Sabbath with the traditional blessing of bread and wine every Friday, I celebrate in some way some of the Jewish holidays, such as lighting the candles of the 8 branched Menorah each day in Channukah to commemorate the victory of the Jewish Maccabees over the Seleucid Greeks and the rededication of the Temple at Jerusalem after foreign control has been removed, I read the Hebrew Bible, things which 'strict' Jews would consider perhaps very general and undetailed in Jewish law.
I do not limit myself to Kosher food, which the majority of Jews do.
As a Jewish person who grew in a a secular environment I could never be able to relate to strict adherence to Jewish laws, nor would I want to, I love to celebrate Jewish tradition which is rich and culturally empowering and not focus on what I find to be inane details of laws unrelated to my own character and way of life.