Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[fallingblood]

Based on what?

Based on the question I asked. I got an answer that I found very suitable. And as of yet, I have seen no refutation to that answer. Thus, in my view, the answer was fulfilled.

 

[fallingblood]

Okay well he got the Jewish response he was looking for I guess he wasn't really wanting to debate anything.

It's open to debate. But so far, the debate lacks any real refutation. Thus, the answer seems quite clear. If you can show a reason to reject the answer so far given, be my guest.

 

[Levite]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

There is no such thing. Jewish law cannot be "fulfilled," in such a way that it becomes obsolete for everyone, as a body, forever. There just is no such thing.

The whole point is that the covenant we made at Sinai was eternal, and unbreakable. The commandments are binding not merely of the Jewish People as a body, but on every individual Jew, in every generation. No one can somehow make that go away, or do them all for everyone else.

That makes no more sense than having one American who obeyed every US law in his life time perfectly, and then saying, "OK, we can throw out the Constitution now! We don't need any more laws: that guy did them all for us."

Jewish Law is how Jewish society is shaped, formed, and ordered. It is not merely a body of rules, but our customs, our way of life, our philosophy, our literature, our liturgy and our observances. To say, "That's all over with, you don't have to follow Jewish Law anymore" is not only ridiculous and impossible, but insulting, since it amounts to "You don't have to be who you are anymore. You don't have to be Jews anymore."

 

[Flankerl]

From a personal point of view if jesus fulfilled the law where did he take my children? I obviously dont have children but since he fulfilled the law i must have been pregnant at some point in the past.
Where are they? Did jesus steal my children?

Also there is no way anyone is able to fulfill the various laws in advance. For example its not yet the next shabbat. Obviously no one can rest at that shabbat yet since its not the right time yet.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

Some laws can be explained differently according to jewish kohens

some might say somthing is Kosher, other might say it is not.

but what happened actually that children of Israel were asking too much about the laws and it's terms and conditions.

so they were asking thier prophets too much questions. therefore the laws became more specific and more strict.

if they left the laws as it was revealed at first, they would found more felixibilty in impelementing thier laws.

I am not talking about explicit laws , because it needs not an explinations, I am pointing to the ambegious laws.

So Jesus came to Allow some non-kosher things to be Allowed or Kosher. he has his evidence of prohecy , so he had the right to Allow some non-kosher things.

which made the Laws more easy to implemnt.

 

[SageTree]

I come to RF for the arguments :help:





:areyoucra
SageTree

 

[TheKnight]

What is or was so different than how Jesus fulfilled the law and how Jewish people did or supposedly claim to?
What is the Jewish definition of fulfill and how did it differ from how Jesus might have fulfilled prophecy or laws?

Well, Jesus didn't seem as concerned about following the law when it came to things he either wanted/didn't want to do.

Other than that, assuming he existed and was a Jew, he wasn't really any different from the Jews.

 

[SageTree]

Wait.... I thought Jesus was a Christian ?

 

[Autodidact]

He disrespected his mother.

This is huge, a big no-no, and cannot be disputed based on the gospel accounts. I'd say this is non-negotiable, not a venial sin, to use the Catholic term, but a great big deal. How can you "live and breath" the commandments by violating them?

 

[Harmonious]

Some laws can be explained differently according to jewish kohens

You are operating under a mistaken impression.

Cohanim, while the word translates to "priests", do not serve as the fount of Jewish knowledge and adjudicators of Torah law. Rabbis do. There are Cohanim who are Rabbis, but there are Cohanim who are NOT Rabbis.

Cohanim serve in the Temple, during Temple times. They are descended from Aaron, Moses' brother. They don't always have authority as far as Torah laws go. Rabbis always do.

some might say somthing is Kosher, other might say it is not.

Actually, Rabbis who are true to Torah don't argue about such things as much as you might think.

The things that are argued about amongst Orthodox Rabbis (or Pharisee Rabbis) were not things that would have caused so great a divide amongst Jewish law.

It helps to know what things were argued and why. And almost all arguments that you might be aware of were resolved.

but what happened actually that children of Israel were asking too much about the laws and it's terms and conditions.

No - that is the lifeblood of how Jews are supposed to function, constantly seeking to know more about those "terms and conditions." It brings us closer to God, to each other, and to our teachers and study-fellows.

so they were asking thier prophets too much questions. therefore the laws became more specific and more strict.

No, not really. The laws were always specific. There were fences that were built to make sure that Jews did not transgress Torah law, but the law is still the law.

Why do you think you know the development of Jewish law?

if they left the laws as it was revealed at first, they would found more felixibilty in impelementing thier laws.

This is silly, and ignorant.

Jews live, learn, and find more aspects of how to better fulfill the law. The Torah is infinite.

We STUDY the law as it was revealed. There is more that was given than what was recorded in the Five Books of Moses.

I am not talking about explicit laws , because it needs not an explinations, I am pointing to the ambegious laws.

There is very little that don't need explanations, as EVERY last law was taught with commentary. Unless you spent a significant amount of time learning Torah law, it would be hard to say what is "explicit" and what is "ambiguous."

So Jesus came to Allow some non-kosher things to be Allowed or Kosher. he has his evidence of prohecy , so he had the right to Allow some non-kosher things.

Actually... If someone claims to be a prophet, the positive proof that he is a true prophet and not a false prophet is that he (or she) would NOT change the law as it was given by God to Moses.

If a person claimed to be a prophet but allowed things that God said was NOT kosher by declaring such as part of his "prophecy," this was proof positive that said prophet was false, and was deserving of death for having claimed so.

I realize that Muslims have different ideas about what prophets, and what Torah law, might be because of the way you view Jesus, Muhammad, and other such things.

However, please do not explain Jewish law when it is clear that you are not at all familiar with it.

I wouldn't claim superior knowledge about Sharia law and its development. Please return the favor about Torah law.

 

[Gloone]

Well, Jesus didn't seem as concerned about following the law when it came to things he either wanted/didn't want to do.

Other than that, assuming he existed and was a Jew, he wasn't really any different from the Jews.

I guess that is why Jesus is a Christian then because he did things his way not the Jewish way. You can call Jesus a sinner for destroy a fruit tree, but he didn't go around telling other people to destroy fruit trees. One of the Jewish laws is to burn down any city that has idols. Jesus didn't teach anything like that.

 

[Harmonious]

I guess that is why Jesus is a Christian then because he did things his way not the Jewish way. You can call Jesus a sinner for destroy a fruit tree, but he didn't go around telling other people to destroy fruit trees. One of the Jewish laws is to burn down any city that has idols. Jesus didn't teach anything like that.

True. Jesus didn't teach people to do that. (That would have been worse.)

It was a sin for Jesus to have done it in the first place.

 

[Gloone]

I kill more fruit plants and trees with my lawn mower because they are in the way of where I'm going when I'm cutting grass. So if mother nature decides to strike a fruit tree with a bolt of lightning are you going to tell mother nature not to do that? Jesus was everything the Jewish people were not. He actual forgave people for being sinners. He fulfilled law by making the old laws better. The way they should have been to begin with.

 

[Harmonious]

I kill more fruit plants and trees with my law mower because they are in the way of where I'm going when I'm cutting grass.

You kill apple trees with your lawn mower? Really? This must be far bigger than John Deere creates them.

So if mother nature decides to strike a fruit tree with a bolt of lightning are you going to tell mother nature not to do that?

Mother nature, as you put it, is not a Jew. Therefore, it is not subject to Jewish law.

Jesus was everything the Jewish people were not.

Not really.

He actual forgave people for being sinners.

He forgave their sins? That wasn't his call, unless they wronged him personally.

That he spent time working with them to help make them better people? There are Jews involved with that all the time. If that is what you see Jesus as having done, good for him.

He fulfilled law by making the old laws better.

He had no business doing that. Jews don't have the right to summarily change Jewish law.

Any fence that the Rabbis have enacted don't actually CHANGE Jewish law, but as the fence around the law was taught, it was explained why it would be useful to protect Jewish law.

It never permitted something that was forbidden, and it certainly didn't make a mockery of Jewish commandments that they didn't seem to understand in the first place. (I'm thinking of Jesus and his discussion about divorce.)

The way they should have been to begin with.

Says who?

He was wrong on almost all counts. (I say "almost," because even a stopped clock is right twice a day. He got a few things right, and I won't discount those moments.)

 

[Gloone]

You kill apple trees with your lawn mower? Really? This must be far bigger than John Deere creates them.

No they are baby trees that haven’t had a chance to start growing yet.

Mother Nature, as you put it, is not a Jew. Therefore, it is not subject to Jewish law.

Okay so Mother Nature can do whatever Mother Nature wants.

He forgave their sins? That wasn't his call, unless they wronged him personally.

That he spent time working with them to help make them better people? There are Jews involved with that all the time. If that is what you see Jesus as having done, good for him.

Yeah he forgave people for condemning him to death for accusing him of being a sinner.

He had no business doing that. Jews don't have the right to summarily change Jewish law.

Any fence that the Rabbis have enacted don't actually CHANGE Jewish law, but as the fence around the law was taught, it was explained why it would be useful to protect Jewish law.

It never permitted something that was forbidden, and it certainly didn't make a mockery of Jewish commandments that they didn't seem to understand in the first place. (I'm thinking of Jesus and his discussion about divorce.)

How can you say Jesus had no business trying to better his community and help his Jewish brethren and sistren, but Jewish people today do? How did Jesus make a mockery of Jewish commandments? I fail to see how that is even possible. God telling people not to worship idols, and not kill people then commanding people to burn down cities that has idols and destroy those peoples way of life sounds totally opposite of what was originally taught. Maybe you can explain why something like that is within the bounds of reason for Jewish law.

Says who?

He was wrong on almost all counts. (I say "almost," because even a stopped clock is right twice a day. He got a few things right, and I won't discount those moments.)

He taught the original commandments. Maybe they were not something Jewish people went by at the time.

 

[TheKnight]

I guess that is why Jesus is a Christian then because he did things his way not the Jewish way. You can call Jesus a sinner for destroy a fruit tree, but he didn't go around telling other people to destroy fruit trees. One of the Jewish laws is to burn down any city that has idols. Jesus didn't teach anything like that.

Another Jewish law is not to cut down a fruit tree unless you must.

The way they should have been to begin with.

And it comes out. You don't believe the laws that were given in the Old Testament were given by God.

Well, go read the Old Testament. Those laws were commanded by God.

Maybe you have a problem with what God commands, maybe Jesus did too. And that's perfectly fine. But Jesus didn't say that. Jesus was trying to change the way people looked at things. In the process he broke some laws and inadvertently claimed to be God. For that reason he was executed.

You obviously don't know much about Jewish law.

 

[Gloone]

Another Jewish law is not to cut down a fruit tree unless you must.



And it comes out. You don't believe the laws that were given in the Old Testament were given by God.

Well, go read the Old Testament. Those laws were commanded by God.

Maybe you have a problem with what God commands, maybe Jesus did too. And that's perfectly fine. But Jesus didn't say that. Jesus was trying to change the way people looked at things. In the process he broke some laws and inadvertently claimed to be God. For that reason he was executed.

You obviously don't know much about Jewish law.

Yes I do know enough about Jewish Law. People at the time must have had problems with who and who not to have sex with, like animals, family, and w/e. Men at the time must have had a problems with wanting to wear womens clothing. People must have had a problem with worshiping idols, people must have had a problem with worshiping more than one god and evidently somebody or someone decided to make a law to tell people no, you are not suppose to do that. If anything Jesus gave people a reason to live and breath again. I actually enjoy shaving with a razor blade, I don't think I should be punished for looking sexy with my smooth face. Moses received the commandments from GOD how? Oral translation, what is he difference between his translation and Jesus. If you think Jesus was a Pagan then just say so and I will be more than happy to see him that way.

 

[TheKnight]

Yes I do know enough about Jewish Law. People at the time must have had problems with who and who not to have sex with, like animals, family, and w/e. Men at the time must have had a problems with wanting to wear womens clothing. People must have had a problem with worshiping idols, people must have had a problem with worshiping more than one god and evidently somebody or someone decided to make a law to tell people no, you are not suppose to do that. If anything Jesus gave people a reason to live and breath again. I actually enjoy shaving with a razor blade, I don't think I should be punished for looking sexy with my smooth face. Moses received the commandments from GOD how? Oral translation, what is he difference between his translation and Jesus. If you think Jesus was a Pagan then just say so and I will be more than happy to see him that way.

Like I said, you don't believe that God gave the commandments that are in the Old Testament, which means you don't believe in any of the Old Testament, which also means that you are not a Christian. Further discussion with you on this topic is useless.

Jews follow the laws because they believe God gave them. End of story. No random man (Jesus) can come along and change that. It is a simple matter. There's nothing to debate.

 

[Gloone]

Like I said, you don't believe that God gave the commandments that are in the Old Testament, which means you don't believe in any of the Old Testament, which also means that you are not a Christian. Further discussion with you on this topic is useless.

Jews follow the laws because they believe God gave them. End of story. No random man (Jesus) can come along and change that. It is a simple matter. There's nothing to debate.

How do you know what I do and don't believe? You don't. So if wish not to have a debate that is understandable. No one is forcing you to do anything you wouldn't want to do.

 

[Harmonious]

How do you know what I do and don't believe? You don't. So if wish not to have a debate that is understandable. No one is forcing you to do anything you wouldn't want to do.

The only way anyone can know anything about you is what you tell them. And from what you've said here, it's perfectly clear that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Jewish law.