Can Real Peace Exist between Christianity and Islam?

[Sunstone]

Then, take Canadian Evangelicals. They attend the country's Parliament while the government is in session to sit in the gallery above their political representatives and pray. But praying for one party, or partisan objectives, is expressly forbidden. They pray only that the discourse between the parties becomes more peaceful, that the politicians honor each other, and that they work well together.

I'm aware of some Evangelicals who do much the same thing here in the States. But I don't think it's caught on with the majority yet. Hopefully it will. The values the Canadian Evangelicals are praying for are values all can agree with.

 

[Laila]

It's not a question of how I understand them but how some (many) muslims today understand them, the koran is not read by them as merely historical literature but as containing instruction for them today, there is nothing written there to say it is only meant for that time period and only those who wish to live at peace with their neighbours would interpret it as such and many would consider them to be compromisers, but large majorities do not want this unless it is on the condition that they are superior and acknowledged as such by oppressive taxes and restricitions on meeting together. This is still practised today in many places so those people do not read their vesres (not to mention hadiths) as merely historical.

Those verses read against the background of the Quran in total, makes it clear what they are/were mean't for, nothing to do with compromising.
Muslims are supposed to live in peace with their neighbours; anyone who has knowledge on Quranic teaching can tell you this. First of all one must understand why the taxes existed/exist in the first place. Secondly, in which countries are the taxes really oppresive?
The World problems that we face today are related to power (and greed) unfortunately religion is used and abused.

 

[michel]

Uh...Michel...how much more devout do you have to get than the Pope?

I think you meant...extreme, maybe?

I do; but it begs the question (for another thread maybe does devout=extreme?)

Those verses read against the background of the Quran in total, makes it clear what they are/were mean't for, nothing to do with compromising.
Muslims are supposed to live in peace with their neighbours; anyone who has knowledge on Quranic teaching can tell you this. First of all one must understand why the taxes existed/exist in the first place. Secondly, in which countries are the taxes really oppresive?
The World problems that we face today are related to power (and greed) unfortunately religion is used and abused.

Whilst I find your message a wonderful one to read, I wonder if you feel that you really are talking for the majority of Muslims ?

Bar one ot two members here, the usual thread that seems to be posted by Muyslims is "You are all wrong because you say that Jesus is God; that is heresy, and you will be punished" (which I can understand from a Muslim point of view, but which, nevertheless comes up often enough with monotonous regularity).

 

[Laila]

Whilst I find your message a wonderful one to read, I wonder if you feel that you really are talking for the majority of Muslims ?

Hi Michel, I hope so as this message comes from the Quranic teaching so it's not one muslims can deny.

Bar one ot two members here, the usual thread that seems to be posted by Muyslims is "You are all wrong because you say that Jesus is God; that is heresy, and you will be punished" (which I can understand from a Muslim point of view, but which, nevertheless comes up often enough with monotonous regularity).

The members on RF are not representative of the views of the majority muslims. It's like when you put the news on and watch speeches given by MCB which are not a representative of the muslim majority in Britain. Please watch dispatches on Monday evening - I think you'll find it very interesting.

As a muslim I can never accept the trinity or Jesus as the son of God.
Jesus (bpuh) as a Prophet and person held in high esteem I have no problem with. These are the main differences between us but that does not give me or any other muslim to say that you're going to hell. This is not for us to say, God will tell us about that which we differed on. As a muslim (and many would share my views) I look at humanity, which comes first. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe - there is/and should be no hatred.

 

[pete29]

Hi Michel, I hope so as this message comes from the Quranic teaching so it's not one muslims can deny.

The members on RF are not representative of the views of the majority muslims. It's like when you put the news on and watch speeches given by MCB which are not a representative of the muslim majority in Britain. Please watch dispatches on Monday evening - I think you'll find it very interesting.

As a muslim I can never accept the trinity or Jesus as the son of God.
Jesus (bpuh) as a Prophet and person held in high esteem I have no problem with. These are the main differences between us but that does not give me or any other muslim to say that you're going to hell. This is not for us to say, God will tell us about that which we differed on. As a muslim (and many would share my views) I look at humanity, which comes first. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe - there is/and should be no hatred.

If a person has hatred for another person whatever the reason I can't believe God will judge that person as good.

 

[Laila]

If a person has hatred for another person whatever the reason I can't believe God will judge that person as good.

I agree, any negative attribute can't be a good thing.

 

[pete29]

Jesus said," Love God with your whole heart, your whole mind, and your whole soul. Also, Love your neighbor as yourself." If I hate You because of your beliefs, then I'm not following my beliefs very well am I.

 

[pete29]

I think the question has been answered. There is obviously peace between us. If it can happen between individuals, why can't it happen between groups. There will always be fanatics on both sides. God will deal with those people in His own good time. Hopefully they will learn to love each other before that happens.

 

[*Paul*]

That's fine Paul, but just realize that if you say things like this about Islam, then Jews will be wide open to claim Christianity is inherently anti-Semetic on the same grounds.

They do and they can, but they can't say that the bible is anti semitic so if a Christian is an anti semite (depending on how you define the word) they do so against apostolic teaching. If I meet anti semitic Christians I will stand up for the Jews against them and oppose them publicly and prove them wrong because anti semitsm is against scripture. Most people who take the bible literally believe as I do, others change scripture and make Israel mean Christian Church without good reason for doing so.

I'm well aware of current abuses of other religious groups in SOME Muslims countries today. I'm a Baha'i and as such we're not even "People of the Book" so we normally get worse treatment than Christians do in those countries that do not tolerate other religious groups.

I am aware of this too and have read much about it through some Bahais I met on another forum, and I was careful to say SOME muslim countries.

 

[pete29]

Hatred of anyone is satanic

 

[Random]

NO.

Try as one might, these cardinal principles of both religions prevent any movement to reconcile their beliefs. My conclusion on this matter is that there cannot be any peace between these two religions as long as they exist in their present forms. The present forms of these religions call only for world domination- nothing less.

For the reasons you've stated here.

The time will come I believe, that both these religions will be modified to different forms, possibly by Hinduism and Buddhism, to such states that the radicle beliefs of both will be moderated to an extent where peace is possible betweem them.

I agree: I have always believed the Dharmic religions would be the sole survivors of an ideological religious holocaust.

 

[*Paul*]

Those verses read against the background of the Quran in total, makes it clear what they are/were mean't for, nothing to do with compromising.
Muslims are supposed to live in peace with their neighbours; anyone who has knowledge on Quranic teaching can tell you this.

As I said how I interpret it makes little difference, but there are a lot of Muslims that use these verses and others and Hadiths to oppress, murder and humiltiate other faiths in their countries, you say any one with koranic knowledge will tell me this, but what i read is anyone who shares you're interpretation will tell me this, but there are yet many others who will differ and would say that living in peace is conditional on your neighbours behaviour towards Islam. For example if I came and preached the gospel publicly in some muslim countries and declared that the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is our only means of atonememt with God the Father, how long would I last? What if some believed me, would i be invited to a reasoned debate and discussion? NO, I would be imprisoned and or murdered. Yet love and scripture constraines me to try and make disciples for Jesus Christ.

First of all one must understand why the taxes existed/exist in the first place.

One must understand why they are still in existence thats all that matters. Answer because the koran says so therefore justifes this unjust financial gain.

Secondly, in which countries are the taxes really oppresive?

Any tax for holding a religious belief for which certain religions do not get taxed is oppressive, it is financial oppression and humiliation

 

[Laila]

As I said how I interpret it makes little difference, but there are a lot of Muslims that use these verses and others and Hadiths to oppress, murder and humiltiate other faiths in their countries, you say any one with koranic knowledge will tell me this, but what i read is anyone who shares you're interpretation will tell me this, but there are yet many others who will differ and would say that living in peace is conditional on your neighbours behaviour towards Islam. For example if I came and preached the gospel publicly in some muslim countries and declared that the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ is our only means of atonememt with God the Father, how long would I last? What if some believed me, would i be invited to a reasoned debate and discussion? NO, I would be imprisoned and or murdered. Yet love and scripture constraines me to try and make disciples for Jesus Christ.

If you're a religious minority in a majority country why would you want to preach the gospel publicly? In my country (England) you see people in the town square preaching the gospels publicly but you never see anyone preaching the Quran publicly; I doubt the muslim minority have a problem with this.
Do you really think that people are not invited to reasoned debate and discussions? Yes they are and some of these are recorded. Now there is a distinct difference in 'living in peace' and preaching your faith to people who are not interested. I do not preach my faith to my non-muslims friends who are clearly not intertested. So trying to preach your faith to a muslim majority, who are not interested, is hardly trying to live peacefully!

One must understand why they are still in existence thats all that matters. Answer because the koran says so therefore justifes this unjust financial gain.

So that non-muslims living in a muslim country don't have to participate in warfare or a compulsory military year but can rest assured that they will still be protected by the country. Which muslim country in 2007 charges this so called 'oppressive tax'?

Any tax for holding a religious belief for which certain religions do not get taxed is oppressive, it is financial oppression and humiliation

If you can understand the above, you'll know that the tax is not because of having a different religious belief, but respects the fact that someone of a different faith may not want to participate in the countries military affairs, if you don't want to pay the tax participation in warfare (to protect the country) would become compulsory - it's as simple as that.

 

[*Paul*]

If you're a religious minority in a majority country why would you want to preach the gospel publicly? In my country (England) you see people in the town square preaching the gospels publicly but you never see anyone preaching the Quran publicly; I doubt the muslim minority have a problem with this.

Go to Birmingham city centre and you wqill see them evangelising and challenging christian evangelists, I live there.

Do you really think that people are not invited to reasoned debate and discussions?

Some might well be but i guarantee you that if a normal low profile CHristian preached the gospel to an muslim community in many islam run countries they are dead meat.

Now there is a distinct difference in 'living in peace' and preaching your faith to people who are not interested.

Should that make it prisonable? Should they be killed for it? Are people forced to stop and listen?

I do not preach my faith to my non-muslims friends who are clearly not intertested.

You do not know they are not interested until the first time you try.

So trying to preach your faith to a muslim majority, who are not interested, is hardly trying to live peacefully!

How would we know they are not interested, how do we know they really understand what they are refusing? To practice our faith we have to evangelise at least that is how many of us understand Jesus' great commision to us, if you don't want to listen them fine, walk away but why throw someone in to prison, why take their children away from them?

So that non-muslims living in a muslim country don't have to participate in warfare or a compulsory military year but can rest assured that they will still be protected by the country. Which muslim country in 2007 charges this so called 'oppressive tax'?

Niger has Dhimmis (slaves) which must pay taxes, wear special clothes and are not permitted to build places of worship. Here is a comment from an egyptian:

I am an Egyptian agnostic, and I live in Egypt, the general atmosphere here is very tense and full of hatred and degradation of other religions and beliefs, people like should hide their beliefs in order to live safely, otherwise we should expect anything to happen to us, starting from harassment and discrimination reaching up to killing and eradication.
It is part of the Muslim's belief that, all non-Muslims (except Jews and Christians) should be killed, and regarding the Jews and Christians, they would be given the chance to live, with one provided that they follow the Quranic condition: to pay the Jizya (Special tax) with complete humiliation and suppression.
Sometimes I wonder, would the Islam and its followers someday become civilized to respect other's Human Rights?
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2006/12/bahai_and_dry.html#comment-343015

 

[Booko]

Any tax for holding a religious belief for which certain religions do not get taxed is oppressive, it is financial oppression and humiliation

The alternative (at least historically) was to pay MORE in terms of zakat (alms) and plus be required to serve in the military.

For much of its history, the Muslims in Muslim nations had a heavier load to bear.

Whether that is true today, I can't tell you. But to refuse to acknowledge historical facts is short-sighted at best. So is reliance on polemic.

 

[*Paul*]

The Dhimmi: An Overview [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]DEFINITION: The status of People of the Book (Jews and Christians) unders Islamic rule.[/FONT]
DHIMMI HOTSPOTS:
Pakistan: anti-Christian legislation
Iran: Systematic oppression of the Bahai community
Sudan: Murder and enslavement of Black Africans
Saudi Arabia: Apartheid for all non-Muslims
Indonesia: Terrorizing of Christian minorities
Egypt: Oppression of Coptic Christians
Bangladesh: Terrorizing of Hindu and Christian minorities by Islamic radicals

Full details:
http://www.dhimmi.com/dhimmi_overview.htm
Real life victims:
http://www.dhimmi.com/victimsgallery.htm

Come quickly Lord.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

There can be much peace so long as muslims and christian practice their respective religions with full understanding. At the same time repsecting one another as a valid religion. As far as some christians are concerned Islam is an invalid religion altogether and cannot be regarded as anything other than that. Some muslims ignorant of Islam feel the same.

Also another thing is that we should try to get to know one another. The problem with that is that getting to know about something else is often confused with accepting it. Some christians refuse to learn anything about Islam beyond hearsay, and are content with muslims being the "other" religion. Muslims who know nothing about christianity view it the same way.

A muslim and a christian can hold their respective views, but first must respect each other as having a belief system that means so much to them, that they have based their lives around it. After that, knowledge is the key to at least understanding one another even if we never accept the other POV.

 

[Ozzie]

Absolutely! If they were to stop treating eachother as religious objects and instead as fellow humans it would be possible.

 

[Navigator]

A devout Muslim cannot follow the Quran and be peaceful or equal to any other religion or belief.

 

[Popeyesays]

A devout Muslim cannot follow the Quran and be peaceful or equal to any other religion or belief.

That sentiment is unfortunately just what causes all the strife between religions around the world. It's a false statement, I assume it is from ignorance and misuderstanding rather than malice.

"We have erewhile declared -- and Our Word is the truth -- : "Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship." Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished. From the heaven of God's Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race. The highest essence and most perfect expression of whatsoever the peoples of old have either said or written hath, through this most potent Revelation, been sent down from the heaven of the Will of the All-Possessing, the Ever-Abiding God. Of old it hath been revealed: "Love of one's country is an element of the Faith of God." The Tongue of Grandeur hath, however, in the day of His manifestation proclaimed: "It is not his to boast who loveth his country, but it is his who loveth the world." Through the power released by these exalted words He hath lent a fresh impulse, and set a new direction, to the birds of men's hearts, and hath obliterated every trace of restriction and limitation from God's holy Book."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 95)

Regards,
Scott