Can science prove or disprove the existence of a Spiritual existence? God?

[skywrath32]

Science and the Scientific Method are terrific tools for obtaining a better understanding of the Natural Universe. Can it be used to understand the Supernatural Universe? Can it be used to prove or disprove the existence of the Almighty, God, supernatural forces or anything else which exists beyond our Natural Universe? I think not, but this article tries to make it sound like it can:

Obviously the author of the article, Austin Cline, is a bit biased, but he is also smart enough to try focus most of his words narrowly yet he leaves the unstated impression that science can absolutely prove that God does not exist. Here he quotes Victor Stenger:






Note narrow definition of God and his point "as defined". While he is correct within his narrow parameters, to extrapolate that idea to say "God does not exist" is beyond scientific capability. Even the "high priest" of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, admits "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable". Fine. He guesses God is improbable but, as a scientist who is fully knowledgeable of the limitations of Science, he "cannot know for certain". If Dawkins can't know for certain, then why does a non-scientist Austin Cline believe he can know for certain?

God is outside the realm of Science because he CREATED IT but there is a way to disprove/prove his existence, How did existence came to existence?. anyway, You can use human's logic to prove or disprove a God which is what most people uses now for we lack solid proof.

 

[The Wizard]

God is outside the realm of Science because he CREATED IT but there is a way to disprove/prove his existence, How did existence came to existence?. anyway, You can use human's logic to prove or disprove a God which is what most people uses now for we lack solid proof.

"God is outside the realm..." Interesting statement. Does an ant actually know we exist as we sit there and watch it? How about when its on your finger? Can it even grasp the magnitude? Can a self discovery program find proof of its own Creator in its constructed digital Universe when it is restricted to the laws of a computer? It just sees data about a Creator. So, it catagorizes the data as unsubstantiated. By design, it can't ever see outside the design. I'd assume we would be similiar to the ant or computer program when reffering to a Creator and their domain.

Existence has always existed. It could not "begin" in the first place becouse then that would mean that something existed to begin it. So, it never did not exist. Upon some contemplation, you can discover that the question of if existence ever did not exist makes no logical sense... imo.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

If I travelled an infinite distance forward, then I must also travel an infinite distance backward, and so won't stop in any finite amount of time. If I travelled a finite distance, it'll take me a finite time to get back. What's the problem?

So where would you STOP? In the analogy I gave, you stopped once you reached me, now you are going backwards the same distance that you came, where would you STOP? If you reached that distance going forward, you should be able to reach the same distance going backwards, but since infinity cant be identified with any specific point, such as "I've reached infinity, and that is it", then you cant possibly know where to stop.

You implied it.
"In an infinitely long past, each event would have to traverse an infinite amount of events to reach ANY event."

You've just quoted me, and based on what I said, it has NOTHING to do with suggesting that the event had a beginning point.

As much as that is coherent at all, it's false. For it to be true, you would have to start a point that is an infinite distance away from the "present," but there is no such point.

What??????? If the past is infinite, then of course the present moment is an infinite distance away from any point of the past. The present moment, as I am typing this, has arrived, so if we go back in time and travel the same duration that it took to reach this "present" moment, what event in time would we arrive at??? In order to do this there would have to be a second point of reference, but with infinity, there IS no second point of reference. So if you can't travel backwards the same distance, you cant travel forward to reach the "present" moment.

Let me repeat that: all points on the road are a finite distance from every other point.

So, if all points on the road are a finite distance, what is the distance between any point on a road, and a point that is an infinite distance away??? What is the distance between those two points?

Assuming each step takes the same amount of time, the house will be done if you wait forever.

What????????? How much time is forever??? And by "forever", we are not talking about it in the context of a figure of speech, we are talking about it as the literal meaning "for all time". But even besides that, with infinity, it doesn't matter how long each step took, how much time you had to build the house, or how many people helped you build the house.

This isn't the same as "never be completed" - it will be completed after an infinite amount of time. If your particular universe has a timeline longer than that, this can be useful.

You are missing the point!!!! Can you count to infinity??? The answer is obviously no, so if you cant count to infinity and reach a "last number", how on earth can you reach an infinite amount of time and finish building the house, a house at which it will take an infinite number of steps to build???

However, if each step takes less and less time (say, half that of the previous step) then the infinite house can be completed in finite time, despite being infinite.

So if you couldn't complete the building in an infinite amount of time, how could you complete it in less time??

Answers you do not want to hear are still answers.

You are right, a person can offer as many cockamany answers as he/she likes, but the answer will rise or fall on its own merit.

There are no points which are an infinite distance away.

So, the distance from eternal past to this present moment is finite??? SO, how long did it take for the eternal past to reach this present moment??? How long?? I really would like an answer to this.

 

[skywrath32]

"God is outside the realm..." Interesting statement. Does an ant actually know we exist as we sit there and watch it? How about when its on your finger? Can it even grasp the magnitude? Can a self discovery program find proof of its own Creator in its constructed digital Universe when it is restricted to the laws of a computer? It just sees data about a Creator. So, it catagorizes the data as unsubstantiated. By design, it can't ever see outside the design. I'd assume we would be similiar to the ant or computer program when reffering to a Creator and their domain.

Existence has always existed. It could not "begin" in the first place becouse then that would mean that something existed to begin it. So, it never did not exist. Upon some contemplation, you can discover that the question of if existence ever did not exist makes no logical sense... imo.

If you use human logic, Existence would always exist but existence is only applicable to the physical world and the word existence isnt applicable to any other worlds , if there are any. So the possibility of God is still possible and he isnt existing but he is something else. Who knows? Do you know what is outside of existence? There might be an another world where the creator lives and he created the universe into existence.

And in the ant thingy. If you created another type of world with same laws with us, would the inhabitant inside that world know you? probably they would speculate the same thing. "Do we have a creator?". Now do you exists in there world? nope but you exist outside there world.

 

[ankarali]

''Religion is an examination. a test, proposed by God so that in the arena of competition elevated spirits and base spirits may be distinguished from one another. Just as materials are plunged in the fire so that diamonds and coal, gold and earth, separate out from one another, so too, religion is a trial concerning the obligations placed on man by God and a driving to competition, which is what this abode of examination consists of, so that the elevated jewels in the mine of man's abilities may become separated out from the dross. Since the Qur'an was revealed in this abode of examination for man to be perfected through trial in an arena of competition, for sure, it will only allude to the hidden events of the future pertaining to this world which everyone will see, and will only open the door to the reason to a degree that proves its argument. If it mentioned them explicitly, the mystery of proposal would be spoilt. Simply, it would become as self-evident as writing There is no god but God clearly with stars on the face of the skies. Then everyone would have to affirm it whether they wanted to or not. There would be no competition, and the examination too would be lost. A spirit like coal would remain together with a spirit like diamonds''

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Risale-i Nur Collection[/FONT]

to take better notes in an exam you must work hard so if each students get ''A'' in an exam without an examination it will not be logic

 

[Heathen Hammer]

If you use human logic,

What other logic do you think there is?

 

[PolyHedral]

If you use human logic, Existence would always exist but existence is only applicable to the physical world and the word existence isnt applicable to any other worlds , if there are any.

There aren't any. After all, they would have to not exist.

And in the ant thingy. If you created another type of world with same laws with us, would the inhabitant inside that world know you? probably they would speculate the same thing. "Do we have a creator?". Now do you exists in there world? nope but you exist outside there world.

They'd be correct if they reasoned that we don't exist, though. As far as they are concerned, we don't.

 

[skywrath32]

What other logic do you think there is?

Our logic is different from the logic of the universe. ours is limited.

 

[skywrath32]

There aren't any. After all, they would have to not exist.


They'd be correct if they reasoned that we don't exist, though. As far as they are concerned, we don't.

There are but they arent existent in the physical world.

 

[PolyHedral]

There are but they arent existent in the physical world.

So we're heading down the road to Platoism then?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Our logic is different from the logic of the universe. ours is limited.

In what way?

Does it's limitations make it habitually wrong, in your limited view?

Realizing, of course, that I understand you are totally wrong about that...

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

Science and the Scientific Method are terrific tools for obtaining a better understanding of the Natural Universe. Can it be used to understand the Supernatural Universe? Can it be used to prove or disprove the existence of the Almighty, God, supernatural forces or anything else which exists beyond our Natural Universe? I think not, but this article tries to make it sound like it can: Scientifically, God Does Not Exist - Science Allows us to Say God Does Not Exist - No Role for God in Science, No Explanation that God can Provide

Obviously the author of the article, Austin Cline, is a bit biased, but he is also smart enough to try focus most of his words narrowly yet he leaves the unstated impression that science can absolutely prove that God does not exist. Here he quotes Victor Stenger:






Note narrow definition of God and his point "as defined". While he is correct within his narrow parameters, to extrapolate that idea to say "God does not exist" is beyond scientific capability. Even the "high priest" of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, admits "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable". Fine. He guesses God is improbable but, as a scientist who is fully knowledgeable of the limitati
ns of Science, he "cannot know for certain". If Dawkins can't know for certain, then why does a non-scientist Austin Cline believe he can know for certain?

No. It seems to me, my belief cannot be disproved, that is why it is not belief, but reality. It seems, that being good, is something even an atheist will like and believe in religion. He will not want to disprove it.

 

[McBell]

No. It seems to me, my belief cannot be disproved, that is why it is not belief, but reality. It seems, that being good, is something even an atheist will like and believe in religion. He will not want to disprove it.

So you base reality on what you cannot disprove?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I'll see you at the Unicorn races this Saturday, Mes! I am betting my whole pot of leprechaun gold on number 5, 2nd race.

 

[adi2d]

If a person has been counting "down" from infinity, at what point will he reach the number 0?? I really would like an answer to this. No matter what number he arrives at, there is an infinite amount of numbers to count, so no matter how fast he counts, or how long he counts, he will never get anywhere CLOSE to 0.[/QUOTE]

This is a tough one but if you would tell me what # is one less than infinity I think we could count down to 0. That's why no to points are an infinite distance apart

 

[PolyHedral]

The present moment, as I am typing this, has arrived, so if we go back in time and travel the same duration that it took to reach this "present" moment, what event in time would we arrive at???

All of them.

So, if all points on the road are a finite distance, what is the distance between any point on a road, and a point that is an infinite distance away??? What is the distance between those two points?

There are no such two points.

So if you couldn't complete the building in an infinite amount of time, how could you complete it in less time??

Because the quotes are talking about different houses.

 

[idav]

This is a tough one but if you would tell me what # is one less than infinity I think we could count down to 0. That's why no to points are an infinite distance apart

However you want to define infinity. Could be infinite or just a very large number.

in·fin·i·ty/inˈfinitē/
Noun:
The state or quality of being infinite.
An infinite or very great number or amount.

 

[adi2d]

I think a possible solution was given by isaac asimov about 50 years ago. "The final question"
I'm not saying it happened that way but is a possible way a mind greater than ours could have brought us into existence

Its just a short story. Any reason to read asimov is a good reason (imho)

 

[R34L1TY]

First off, if I may.

Let me just say that the term "Atheist" does not make sense because you cannot fully prove or disprove of the existence of a spiritual being so you would have to have faith that there isn't a Spiritual Ruler in order to even be an Atheist.

Second off, what Science can do (not that its intent is to do).. is that it can offer factual evidence that can disprove that a God ever existed. But if your intent as a Scientist is to do just that, you shouldn't be a Scientist.

Neuro-Science can explain in vague terms why we are such biblical creatures, why we experience certain impulses that make us believe something happened, and so can our Ancestors. We believed a lot of funny things years ago (and some of us still do) that would explain how things happened. Lots of theories and poetic ideas of how we got to be what we are today. However, Physics/Chemistry and of course Biology.. can prove how we got here. Evolution is no longer a theory, it is a fact. We haven't gotten to the point of proving the Higgs Field but all evidence points that we will quite soon.

But Science cannot prove that a Spiritual Being does not exist. Just as it cannot prove that pigs did not once fly (although the evidence for it not being true, would be substantial).

Spiritually, it is nice to have your own beliefs. It brings closure when a loved one passes and can bring meaning to ones life. But so can Science. Life Science is very interesting which is why its unfortunate that Biology isn't such a popular class or career path in today's society. You really are missing out on the beautiful nature of our existence.

But anywho, hope that wasn't too long of a post.

 

[PolyHedral]

But Science cannot prove that a Spiritual Being does not exist.

This is true if and only if "a spiritual being exists" cannot be tested by experiment, i.e. there is no possible test we could do that behaves differently than we'd expect, due to spiritual beings.

And if spiritual beings affect literally nothing, in what way can they be said to exist?