Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[outhouse]

if the idea of a trinity is so important why is it not clearly spelled out in the Bible?

Jesus divinity I snot spelled out clearly in the bible. It has contradicting verses.


And who said I accept the trinity, I told you I didn't accept it. But that doesn't change that is what christianity Is based on.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I'm afraid I have a little more regard for the Bible. yes it was written by man but I believe it was inspired by God. while there may may minor errors, especially in translations, I believe it has more truth than not. and any church that says it puts as much faith in traditions as in the Bible does not hold much importance for me.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

and who cares what "Christianity" is based on. what mankind calls Christianity is nothing like the teachings of Jesus.if anyone can show me exactly what Jesus taught then I will adjust my beliefs. but I am afraid I have not seen anything to convince me that mankind's "Christianity" is correct.

 

[sojourner]

But it doesnt make it right. Trinity is not biblical.

There is no "right" or "wrong." The Trinity is a) valid, both biblically and theologically (even though the term, itself, is not present therein), and b) the orthodox stance.

There were multiple gods everywhere. Why not bring it into Christianity in the time of Constantine?

The Trinity isn't about "multiple gods." It's a way to describe the one God.

Yahweh is not a mystery. He is one.

That's what the Trinity says: God is One God.

How did Moses understand that? Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one!. Do you think he said, I dont understand that ? It's too confusing for me!! Or do you think he understood that God is one.

That's not exactly a fair comparison to make, because a) Moses didn't write any of the Pentateuch, and b) the viewpoint at that time was henotheism -- not monotheism, so "Moses'" perspective of the "oneness" of God would have been completely different from ours in the best case.

Mainstream Christianity says thats wrong. There are Gods beside our God.

No, they don't say that at all. The doctrine of the Trinity says that God is One. Unequivocally.

 

[outhouse]

what mankind calls Christianity is nothing like the teachings of Jesus.if

I'm not sure you even know what those teachings are. I teach biblical studies and I don't know exactly what his teachings are.

I know most of what you think you know is actually attributed to Hellenist in the Diaspora.

I also know most of what is in the bible has a better chance of being Johns teachings then Jesus. Jesus more or less took over Johns movement when John was murdered.

 

[outhouse]

I believe it was inspired by God.

That unsubstantiated statement cheapen the text.

No god would ever make that many mistakes, use rhetoric, and mythology writing only mans version of theology based on a previous religions foundation.


There is much more beauty in knowing man only wrote these text.

 

[sojourner]

consensus? ill add clarity.

Constantine did want unification no matter what the outcome may have been. He called the council because he was upset the bishops made it public after the problem grew so large.

The popular vote did win, but it was far from consensus. Only a small number of bishops even showed up, and the Arian controversy was not small by any means. The Council of Nicaea did not end the controversy either.


Constantine is believed to have exiled those who refused to accept the Nicean creed.

Emperors considered themselves responsible to the gods for the spiritual health of their subjects, and after Constantine they had a duty to help the Church define orthodoxy and maintain orthodoxy.

I understand that his use of force is stated as myth. BUT

In his opening address to the Council at Nicea Constantine referred to God using him to put away "the impious hostility of the tyrants," bringing peace to God's people.

Remember he just got done judging the Donatist crisis years earlier.

http://www.churchhistory101.com/century4-p7.php

A statement was read (perhaps written by emperor) welcoming the bishops and rejoicing that the empire had come to peace. Now it was the intention of the emperor that the Church of the Lord be filled with peace. Rufinus records that Constantine had an attendant bring in an armful of scrolls and letters sent to him from all over the empire. It was announced that these communications were letters of accusations and complaints sent by bishops against other bishops. Constantine then let the bishops know that he had not read any of them and instructed his attendant to burn them on the altar, saying that he wanted all grievances settled during their council.


This is pretty clear he was judge and jury here, and demanded peace.


Constantine did introduce, argued for and eventually insisted that the term homoousias be used in a creedal formula from the council that would definitively state the universal position of the Church

Though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out.

It eventually was settled, and, no matter the consensus -- it was a consensus, not a unilateral dictate.

 

[sojourner]

Constantine was a pagan who saw much of the pagan ideas in the new religion using the name Christian but still keeping much of the pagan beliefs. He accepted this new religion and forced people to accept it or face death. the word trinity is not in the Bible. the new religion decided not to follow the Bible in all matters but just make up traditions to explain things.

"Following the bible in all matters" constitutes sola scriptura, which was one of the new heresies introduced 1200 years later.

 

[sojourner]

the original post asked the question can someone explain the trinity. the answer is that it was made up 300 years after Jesus died and was forced on people by a pagan Roman government that left no room for debate.

No it wasn't. It was an idea extant during the time the NT texts were written.

 

[sojourner]

the doctrine was made by man and is not Biblical.

Yes it is.

if the idea of a trinity is so important why is it not clearly spelled out in the Bible?

It is.

Oh yes, the same church that forced it on people also decided that it did not have to follow the Bible but could make up traditions to explain things.

That's certainly what Jesus and the early photo-church did...

 

[sojourner]

the problem is that people use the word "God" to mean different things. sometimes "God" means the Father and sometimes "God" means more than just the Father. The word "God" should be used like the word "family". you can have one family but that family has more than one member. God is a family that has more than one member. right noe there is a father and a son. the Father has a spirit or power that He can use to do things. this spirit or power is not a third member of the family. Harry Potter has a magic wand that he can wave and make something happen. the wand is not another person. The Heavenly Father can blink an eye or wave a finger and His power or spirit can make something happen. this is not another person. there is the Father and the Son and the Father has a spirit or power. two persons in one God family. not three in some trinity. When Jesus was on the cross He was one part of the God family and he spoke to His Father , another part of the God family. two separate persons in one family called God. but the power or spirit that the Father has does not make three persons in the family.

It's obvious that you don't understand the doctrine.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

doesn't the doctrine of the trinity say that there is one God in three persons. if that is not what it says please explain it to me. my belief is that there is one God in two persons, Father and Son. the Father has a power or spirit that He can use to perform tasks but this is not a third person. there is no trinity, only two persons and the power or spirit of one.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

OK Mr Outhouse. I still think there is room for honest discussion. you said above that you do not accept the trinity doctrine. maybe you would be willing to share some of your knowledge with us and explain what you do believe. is there one God or more than one? is that God made up of more than one "person" and if so then how many? I am sure many readers could benefit from your ideas. or do you even believe in God at all?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I have already forgotten the doctrine. the problem is to get churches to forget it and stop teaching false ideas

 

[outhouse]

It eventually was settled, and, no matter the consensus -- it was a consensus, not a unilateral dictate.

Agreed.

In detail my point was were not sure exactly how much authority Constantine exercised over the council, but we do know that most Bishops voted in favor of the current status quo.

 

[outhouse]

is there one God or more than one?

I view 2 by reason and logic in Christian circles. Father and son. Even growing up I was Arian and had no clue about the trinity.

is that God made up of more than one "person" and if so then how many?

2 as explained

do you even believe in God at all?

Oh no lol I know exactly how man defined and redefined the concept from Canaanite religions.

Yahweh was actually two gods compiled into one. El and Yahweh were merged together by some groups earlier then 800 BC.

But they were redacted in biblical text to one god after 622 BC.

Christians redefined Judaism at will, plagiarizing Judaism. Islam plagiarized both redefining the concepts again.

But its OK Israelites plagiarized Canaanite mythology.

Jon Smith plagiarized the bible as well.


And on and on and on.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Thanks, Outhouse, it appears we have a lot in common. I see God as two "persons", the spirit is not a third person but is God's power or life force. I knew all along you were a wise man

 

[sojourner]

doesn't the doctrine of the trinity say that there is one God in three persons. if that is not what it says please explain it to me. my belief is that there is one God in two persons, Father and Son. the Father has a power or spirit that He can use to perform tasks but this is not a third person. there is no trinity, only two persons and the power or spirit of one.

That's incongruent with scriptural references.

 

[sojourner]

I have already forgotten the doctrine. the problem is to get churches to forget it and stop teaching false ideas

What makes it a "false Idea?" Because you don't get it, or believe it?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

because no one has explained how God's power or life force or spirit can be a separate "person". say there is a plumber who has a tool that can unclog drains. when he uses that tool you would not say there were two persons, there was one person with a skill or power or tool. God's spirit is a power or "tool" He can use to do tasks but is not a separate person. what makes this a false idea? because you do not get it or believe it?