Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[URAVIP2ME]

That is a very weak argument. Obviously, God had appeared in the form of a man before Jesus came. There is more to John 1:18 than meets the eye. My own opinion is that no man sees God in all of His glory and lives. I think there are Scriptures to support that view. Regardless, there is no denying that God appeared in the form of a man to Abraham, Joshua.
Gen. 18:1. YHWH appeared to Abraham. He came in the form of a man.
Ex. 33:11. YHWH spoke to Moses face to face.
Josh. 5:13 Joshua saw the face of God.
Where are you coming up with a beginning before the beginning?
Gen 1:1 clearly says, In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. We're told Jesus created everything. Col. 1:16, John 1:3, Heb 1:1-2, 8-10
Jesus Christ is God. He made the heavens and the earth. This can mean only one thing. God is Jesus and Jesus is God who made everything!

God or "US" at Genesis 1:26 ? Who is the one to whom God is speaking ?
Yes, ' in ' the beginning. Who was before the beginning according to Psalm 90:2 ?

Isn't Jesus the just the ' image ' (reflection) of God according to Col. 1:14 ?
Is God the firstborn of every creation, or is God from everlasting - never born first or otherwise?
Col. 1:18 is God firstborn from the dead, when God can Not die - Psalm 90 v 2 ?
Who resurrected the dead Jesus according to Acts 2:27,31,32; 3:15; 13: 30,37 ?

Sure Moses knew God face to face - Deut. 34:10-12 - but that does Not necessarily mean see God literally but rather in a close relationship. God spoke or talked to Moses as closely knowing a person face to face.
Besides Exodus 33: 11,20 see Numbers 12:6-8; Deut. 5:4 where there was verbal talking used in communication with God by not literally in front of or by God's face.
Why does Exodus 33:20 say Moses could Not see God's face and live ? Isn't that because special precautions had to be taken to protect Moses from harm at Ex. 33: 21-23 ?

Where does it say at Joshua 5 vs 13-15 Joshua saw God face to face, or saw the face of God?

 

[Toxikmynd]

Why even use a book to judge how you live your life?

 

[moorea944]

God or "US" at Genesis 1:26 ? Who is the one to whom God is speaking ?
Yes, ' in ' the beginning. Who was before the beginning according to Psalm 90:2 ?

Isn't Jesus the just the ' image ' (reflection) of God according to Col. 1:14 ?
Is God the firstborn of every creation, or is God from everlasting - never born first or otherwise?
Col. 1:18 is God firstborn from the dead, when God can Not die - Psalm 90 v 2 ?
Who resurrected the dead Jesus according to Acts 2:27,31,32; 3:15; 13: 30,37 ?

Sure Moses knew God face to face - Deut. 34:10-12 - but that does Not necessarily mean see God literally but rather in a close relationship. God spoke or talked to Moses as closely knowing a person face to face.
Besides Exodus 33: 11,20 see Numbers 12:6-8; Deut. 5:4 where there was verbal talking used in communication with God by not literally in front of or by God's face.
Why does Exodus 33:20 say Moses could Not see God's face and live ? Isn't that because special precautions had to be taken to protect Moses from harm at Ex. 33: 21-23 ?

Where does it say at Joshua 5 vs 13-15 Joshua saw God face to face, or saw the face of God?

No one has seen God at anytime. So who are these people seeing then? It is angels that God works through. They are His messengers. God has manifested Himself in the angles and they carry His name. They represent Him. God manifestation at it's finest.

 

[cataway]

It says what is says. Accept or reject. Everyone makes a choice.

And I suppose you would say the same about Acts 20:28.

Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

How many verses must you explain away?

do you have a son or a daughter, your offspring are your blood

 

[katiemygirl]

Sure Moses knew God face to face - Deut. 34:10-12 - but that does Not necessarily mean see God literally but rather in a close relationship. God spoke or talked to Moses as closely knowing a person face to face.
Besides Exodus 33: 11,20 see Numbers 12:6-8; Deut. 5:4 where there was verbal talking used in communication with God by not literally in front of or by God's face.
Why does Exodus 33:20 say Moses could Not see God's face and live ? Isn't that because special precautions had to be taken to protect Moses from harm at Ex. 33: 21-23 ?

Where does it say at Joshua 5 vs 13-15 Joshua saw God face to face, or saw the face of God?

I cited Joshua 5, which was Joshua's encounter with the man who came as commander of the army of the Lord.

15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

Who, other than God, would cause the place where Joshua was standing to be holy?

It was Jacob (not Joshua, my error) who saw God face to face. (Genesis 32:30)

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

It is very clear that YHWH appeared to Abraham in Gen. 18:1, in the form of a man. Read the entire chapter. YHWH is one of the three men.

1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

The same can be said about Jacob's encounter in Gen. 32:24-32. God came in the form of a man.

In Ex. 24:9-11, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and the seventy elders saw God.

9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

 

[JM2C]

What did John (1 v 18) say about God but that No man has seen God ->at any time.

What did John (6 v 46 ) say but Not that any man has seen the Father.

What did John (1st John 4 v 12 ] say but No man has seen God ->at any time.

What does Exodus 33 v 20 say but that No man can see God and live.

In John 1:18 it says, ”the only Begotten Son” “hath seen God”, but if you read it in Greek it actually says “monogenës theos”, i.e., “only begotten God” “hath seen God”, that is, the Lord Jesus, the Son of God.

So, the correct interpretation of verse 18 from Greek to English should be, ”the only Begotten God”, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, “hath seen God” before He became flesh in V14.

“And the Word was God” in verse 1 is the “Son of God” from eternity before He became flesh in verse 14.

 

[JM2C]

Jesus had a pre-human life in the heavens - Proverbs 8 vs 22-31 - before God sent His Son, the heavenly Jesus, to earth.

If you read the whole chapter of Proverbs 8 you will see that it is talking about “wisdom” or “Wisdom personified”.

There is No Scripture saying Jesus was ' with ' God ' before ' the beginning, but rather Jesus was ' in' the beginning ' with ' God - Rev. 3:14

Absolutely right, nothing ( in heaven or on earth ) was made without Jesus - Col. 1:14,15,16.

Did you just contradicted yourself here?

 

[katiemygirl]

do you have a son or a daughter, your offspring are your blood

The verse is speaking of Jesus shedding His blood for us. He purchased the church, (christians) with His blood. The verse has nothing whatsoever to do with our sons and daughters.

 

[JM2C]

Paul said the Messiah was God.

Acts 20:28

28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

You know I’ve read this verse so many times but never read it this way “the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood” The word of God is truly amazing. When you thought you’ve seen everything then all of a sudden a verse that you’ve read over and over again enlightened before your very eyes. Another spiritual enlightenment. God bless you Katie.

 

[Kolibri]

Act 20:28 is one of those verses that are commonly looked to by trinitarians.

Ac 20:28—Gr., διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου

(di·a′ tou hai′ma·tos tou i·di′ou)

1903

“with the blood of His own Son”

The Holy Bible in Modern English, by F. Fenton, London.

1950

“with the blood of his own [Son]”

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn.

1966

“through the death of his own Son”

Today’s English Version, American Bible Society, New York.

Grammatically, this passage could be translated as in the King James Version and Douay Version, “with his own blood.” That has been a difficult thought for many. That is doubtless why ACDSyh (margin) (followed by Moffatt’s translation) read “the congregation of the Lord,” instead of “the congregation of God.” When the text reads that way it furnishes no difficulty for the reading, “with his own blood.” However, אBVg read “God” (articulate), and the usual translation would be ‘God’s blood.’

The Greek words τοῦ ἰδίου (tou i·di′ou) follow the phrase “with the blood.” The entire expression could be translated “with the blood of his own.” A noun in the singular number would be understood after “his own,” most likely God’s closest relative, his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ. On this point J. H. Moulton in A Grammar of New Testament Greek, Vol. 1 (Prolegomena), 1930 ed., p. 90, says: “Before leaving ἴδιος [i′di·os] something should be said about the use of ὁ ἴδιος [ho i′di·os] without a noun expressed. This occurs in Jn 1:11; 13:1, Ac 4:23; 24:23. In the papyri we find the singular used thus as a term of endearment to near relations . . . . In Expos. VI. iii. 277 I ventured to cite this as a possible encouragement to those (including B. Weiss) who would translate Acts 20:28 ‘the blood of one who was his own.’”

Alternately, in The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, Vol., 2, London, 1881, pp. 99, 100 of the Appendix, Hort stated: “it is by no means impossible that ΥΙΟΥ [hui·ou′, “of the Son”] dropped out after ΤΟΥΙΔΙΟΥ [tou i·di′ou, “of his own”] at some very early transcription affecting all existing documents. Its insertion leaves the whole passage free from difficulty of any kind.”

- 6C With the Blood of God’s Own Son — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I cited Joshua 5, which was Joshua's encounter with the man who came as commander of the army of the Lord.
15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.
Who, other than God, would cause the place where Joshua was standing to be holy?
It was Jacob (not Joshua, my error) who saw God face to face. (Genesis 32:30)
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
It is very clear that YHWH appeared to Abraham in Gen. 18:1, in the form of a man. Read the entire chapter. YHWH is one of the three men.
1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
The same can be said about Jacob's encounter in Gen. 32:24-32. God came in the form of a man.
In Ex. 24:9-11, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and the seventy elders saw God.
9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Thank you for your reply. Yes Jacob instead of Joshua.
And yes, Exodus 34:10,11 mentions they ' saw ' God and please note that it was in vision as it was at Numbers 12:6. So, they ' saw ' God with their ' mind's eye '. Just as the transfiguration vision was a vision, and Not a real occurrence. - Matthew 17:9

Moses recalled to the Israelites that God (YHWH) ' spoke ' ( talked ) to the nation of Israel ' face to face ' at Deut. 5:4; Deut.4:11-15 - but what the nation heard speaking was the Loud voice at Sinai .

The Psalmist was Not asking to literally be before the face of God forever - Psalm 41:13; 140:13 - but as ' setting a person before one's face ' which would denote or mean favorable attention would be given forever. So, face to face is an expression of closeness because No man can see God and live - John 1:18; 1st John 4:12; Exodus 33:20

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In John 1:18 it says, ”the only Begotten Son” “hath seen God”, but if you read it in Greek it actually says “monogenës theos”, i.e., “only begotten God” “hath seen God”, that is, the Lord Jesus, the Son of God.
So, the correct interpretation of verse 18 from Greek to English should be, ”the only Begotten God”, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, “hath seen God” before He became flesh in V14.
“And the Word was God” in verse 1 is the “Son of God” from eternity before He became flesh in verse 14.

Yes, only-begotten god (Jesus) who is located at the bosom of the Father (bosom position would refer to the position of special favor of being at the Father's side )

Jesus was Not a man before God sent Jesus to earth. No angels are men but angels see God.
Both words: God and god are titles. Such as Moses was god to Pharaoh - Exodus 7:1 and that Moses was a god to Aaron - Exodus 4:16.
The Tetragrammaton only ever applies to the LORD God (YHWH)
Who are the two (2) LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110:1 ?____________________________
One LORD is in all capital letters, whereas the other Lord is in come lower-case letters.
Isn't the Tetragrammaton only ever applied to the LORD in all upper-case letters ?

 

[katiemygirl]

Thank you for your reply. Yes Jacob instead of Joshua.
And yes, Exodus 34:10,11 mentions they ' saw ' God and please note that it was in vision as it was at Numbers 12:6. So, they ' saw ' God with their ' mind's eye '. Just as the transfiguration vision was a vision, and Not a real occurrence. - Matthew 17:9

Moses recalled to the Israelites that God (YHWH) ' spoke ' ( talked ) to the nation of Israel ' face to face ' at Deut. 5:4; Deut.4:11-15 - but what the nation heard speaking was the Loud voice at Sinai .

The Psalmist was Not asking to literally be before the face of God forever - Psalm 41:13; 140:13 - but as ' setting a person before one's face ' which would denote or mean favorable attention would be given forever. So, face to face is an expression of closeness because No man can see God and live - John 1:18; 1st John 4:12; Exodus 33:20

I don't really disagree with you as far as what "face to face" means.

But what about Gen 18? That was no vision Abraham had. YHWH comes to Abraham in the form of a man. When you read the entire account, checking your interlinear as you go, you will see YHWH interacting with Abraham throughout. Remember the discussion YHWH had with Abraham about destroying S & G?

And in Joshua 5:13-15? This was no vision. Who was the man? Why did he, the commander of the Lord's army say,

“Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

This was the point of my post. God had appeared in the form of a man long before Jesus ever came to earth.

Using John 1:18 to say, "No man has seen God, therefore, Jesus cannot be God" is a poor argument. Abraham and Joshua both saw God in human form.

 

[JayJayDee]

I don't really disagree with you as far as what "face to face" means.

But what about Gen 18? That was no vision Abraham had. YHWH comes to Abraham in the form of a man. When you read the entire account, checking your interlinear as you go, you will see YHWH interacting with Abraham throughout. Remember the discussion YHWH had with Abraham about destroying S & G?

God interacts with humans through his messengers. If the one angel who was in human form speaking to Abraham was God's representative, who were the other two who were also in human form with him. These ones physically escorted Lot and his family out of Sodom. Were they God too?

And in Joshua 5:13-15? This was no vision. Who was the man? Why did he, the commander of the Lord's army say,

“Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

This was the point of my post. God had appeared in the form of a man long before Jesus ever came to earth.

No it doesn't. God has never appeared in human form. He doesn't have to. His angels have appeared in human form on many occasions....even the rebel angels in Noah's day materialised human bodies and fathered children...you can't get more human than that.

Using John 1:18 to say, "No man has seen God, therefore, Jesus cannot be God" is a poor argument. Abraham and Joshua both saw God in human form.

No they did not. They saw God's representatives. If the apostle John, who was in close company with Jesus for three and a half years said that "no man has ever seen God", why are you calling him a liar? Is it because you need to squeezed God into your own beliefs?

 

[Kolibri]

If Abraham thought he was speaking to Jehovah directly, Hebrews 13:2 applies.

"Do not forget hospitality, (or "kindness to strangers.") for through it some unknowingly entertained angels."

 

[katiemygirl]

["JayJayDee, post: 4153982, member: 41110"]God interacts with humans through his messengers. If the one angel who was in human form speaking to Abraham was God's representative, who were the other two who were also in human form with him. These ones physically escorted Lot and his family out of Sodom. Were they God too?

You have stated prior that you are not willing to look at Gen. 18 in an Interlinear, which is what I used. I believe you said, "I don't need to look at an interlinear. Well, that's really too bad because it says YHWH appeared to Abraham. It is YHWH who asks why Sarah laughs. It is YHWH who asks the others if He should hide from Abraham what He was about to do. Abraham que7stions YHWH, not an angel, if He will destroy S&G if the fifty righteous are lacking five. I see no reason for me to discuss this topic with you if you won't even look at your own KI. I'm really not interested in opinions. Just the facts.

You need to lose the snarky, smug attitude. It's very unbecoming for someone who claims to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.. Putting a smiley face at the end of a nasty comment doesn't change it to nice.

Attack people's beliefs, not people.

 

[katiemygirl]

If Abraham thought he was speaking to Jehovah directly, Hebrews 13:2 applies.

"Do not forget hospitality, (or "kindness to strangers.") for through it some unknowingly entertained angels."

Abraham was talking to YHWH not an angel. YHWH is used repeatedly throughout the chapter. Use an Interlinear. Read the whole chapter, Hebrew and English side by side.

 

[Kolibri]

Abraham was talking to YHWH not an angel. YHWH is used repeatedly throughout the chapter. Use your own Kingdom Interlinear. Read the whole chapter, Hebrew and English side by side.

I do not need to look it up. I know what it says. But we can not neglect other scriptures that shed light on what happened. That is the 'picking and choosing' that we get accused of. If 'no man has seen God at any time' then the only other explanation is that an angel was speaking to these ones as Jehovah's authorized representative.

(And our own Kingdom Interlinear is a Westcott and Hort text with English underneath. That is only Matthew to Revelation.)

 

[katiemygirl]

I do not need to look it up. I know what it says. But we can not neglect other scriptures that shed light on what happened. That is the 'picking and choosing' that we get accused of. If 'no man has seen God at any time' then the only other explanation is that an angel was speaking to these ones as Jehovah's authorized representative.

(And our own Kingdom Interlinear is a Westcott and Hort text with English underneath. That is only Matthew to Revelation.)

Okay. Sorry, it was another passage I was looking at in your KI. Thank you for catching my error.

You seem to overlook the fact that what people saw was God in human form. Jesus was God in the flesh. It was that flesh people saw.

Why do you have such difficulty believing God could come to earth in the form of a man. Surely, if angels could, why couldn't YHWH?

Your unwillingness to look at an interlinear is very telling. You cannot deny that it is YHWH who appears to Abraham, and it is YHWH who Abraham converses with throughout the chapter. No amount of Scriptures can make a whole chapter to be wrong.

 

[cataway]

The verse is speaking of Jesus shedding His blood for us. He purchased the church, (christians) with His blood. The verse has nothing whatsoever to do with our sons and daughters.

no

The verse is speaking of Jesus shedding His blood for us. He purchased the church, (christians) with His blood

no

28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].