Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[JayJayDee]

Scripture is not meant to be taken literally.

Show me where it says that. Unless you can back up what you say...it is just your personal opinion. What is personal opinion worth? Absolutely nothing unless it is supported by God's word.

You have vain, outward eyes and live a lie. It's not too late to seek properly.

I would say the same to you, except that your eyes are turned completely inward.

Was Jesus a real man? Did he teach real people about real things?

 

[Eileen]

Can someone explain the Trinity please...No.

 

[Unification]

Show me where it says that. Unless you can back up what you say...it is just your personal opinion. What is personal opinion worth? Absolutely nothing unless it is supported by God's word.



I would say the same to you, except that your eyes are turned completely inward.

Was Jesus a real man? Did he teach real people about real things?

While the deceived keep on arguing and debating on how Jesus can be both God and man, if he's fully God, a God, or just a man ....amongst all religions, particularly Christiandom, Islam, and Judaism..... The true inner man, the "Jew" who worships in SPIRIT and truth because God is SPIRIT knows that The Messiah/the Christ is both God and man because he is God inside of mankind. Spirit dwelling bodily. The life and light in all of mankind.

It is common sense and knowledge of God that He does not change nor can make a mistake. To say God made a mistake and had to flood the world, is absurd. This is not possible. It's an excuse for your dogma. It's an excuse for your dogma to explain incest as a change in a being's health, and the rest of your garbage is dogma, and nothing but lies and excuses. You worship a book, claim its final authority, take everything literal, things written by the Spirit of God and create religion, dogmatic junk. It's all vain. . And this false prophet garbage is brainwashed to the entire world. The naive minds of mankind. If you had enough oil in your lamp, you'd clearly see the story of Noah, as well as the rest of scripture and the SPIRIT behind it all, not the literal and carnal and history lessons you perceive.

Your God makes mistakes and destroys the literal world, teaches incest, murder of children, has people slice and dice literal animals and fling their guts all over the place, and will return and destroy humans' and give everyone who are liars and book worshippers of literal junk the earth, female subjection, and whatever other garbage is taught. . . And then simply says this is the word of God that your literally and carnal eyes see so therefore anything spiritual is false.

My God does not make mistakes, nor has changed ever, and he saves lives by destroying someone's mistakes and their created world's, who humbly and purely seek Him. He saves. By washing and cleansing. Transforms lives. Teaches equality. Is just. Teaches to know oneself and find the inner man. Teaches love and humility, and selflessness.


I'll take my God. I'd stand alone in this world with God if need be. You keep on following mankind and the crowd. Once more, it's never too late to seek properly in spirit and truth.

According to Revelation 3:9, you're gonna be the one bowing to the spiritual and inner man/woman. I truly don't want any of this falsity for you or any human.

 

[Kolibri]

While the deceived keep on arguing and debating on how Jesus can be both God and man, if he's fully God, a God, or just a man ....amongst all religions, particularly Christiandom, Islam, and Judaism..... The true inner man, the "Jew" who worships in SPIRIT and truth because God is SPIRIT knows that The Messiah/the Christ is both God and man because he is God inside of mankind. Spirit dwelling bodily. The life and light in all of mankind.

It is common sense and knowledge of God that He does not change nor can make a mistake. To say God made a mistake and had to flood the world, is absurd. This is not possible. It's an excuse for your dogma. It's an excuse for your dogma to explain incest as a change in a being's health, and the rest of your garbage is dogma, and nothing but lies and excuses. You worship a book, claim its final authority, take everything literal, things written by the Spirit of God and create religion, dogmatic junk. It's all vain. . And this false prophet garbage is brainwashed to the entire world. The naive minds of mankind. If you had enough oil in your lamp, you'd clearly see the story of Noah, as well as the rest of scripture and the SPIRIT behind it all, not the literal and carnal and history lessons you perceive.

Your God makes mistakes and destroys the literal world, teaches incest, murder of children, has people slice and dice literal animals and fling their guts all over the place, and will return and destroy humans' and give everyone who are liars and book worshippers of literal junk the earth, female subjection, and whatever other garbage is taught. . . And then simply says this is the word of God that your literally and carnal eyes see so therefore anything spiritual is false.

My God does not make mistakes, nor has changed ever, and he saves lives by destroying someone's mistakes and their created world's, who humbly and purely seek Him. He saves. By washing and cleansing. Transforms lives. Teaches equality. Is just. Teaches to know oneself and find the inner man. Teaches love and humility, and selflessness.


I'll take my God. I'd stand alone in this world with God if need be. You keep on following mankind and the crowd. Once more, it's never too late to seek properly in spirit and truth.

According to Revelation 3:9, you're gonna be the one bowing to the spiritual and inner man/woman. I truly don't want any of this falsity for you or any human.

@Unification What are you doing in the sub-forum Scriptural Debates? Your source of truth is whatever that spirit is that speaks to your inner man and not the Bible.

Is this thread not for people to discuss scripture? As you are not pointing to scripture itself, I am not sure what you are doing here.

 

[Kolibri]

According to Revelation 3:9, you're gonna be the one bowing to the spiritual and inner man/woman. I truly don't want any of this falsity for you or any human.

Funny. None of the Jehovah's Witnesses that visit this forum currently have ever claimed to be Jews - not even spiritual Jews. So I don't think you can make this apply to us.

"Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying - look! I will make them come and bow (or "do obeisance.") before your feet and make them know that I have loved you."

Do you see yourself as a Jew?

(As the KJV uses the word "worship" here I am curious how it would would have related to the debate @katiemygirl and @Pegg were having over who gets our worship and thus who falls under the title of "God". If "bow/do obeisance" is always to be "worship", then there is more than the projected 3 in the "God" much of Christendom worships.)

 

[JayJayDee]

While the deceived keep on arguing and debating on how Jesus can be both God and man, if he's fully God, a God, or just a man ....amongst all religions, particularly Christiandom, Islam, and Judaism..... The true inner man, the "Jew" who worships in SPIRIT and truth because God is SPIRIT knows that The Messiah/the Christ is both God and man because he is God inside of mankind. Spirit dwelling bodily. The life and light in all of mankind.

You speak of "the deceived" as though that could not possible apply to yourself.....it does you know.

JW's do not believe that Jesus was "both God and man....fully God....a God....or just a man".

We believe that he is who he himself claimed to be...."the son of God".
That designation does not describe any of the above.

It is common sense and knowledge of God that He does not change nor can make a mistake. To say God made a mistake and had to flood the world, is absurd. This is not possible. It's an excuse for your dogma.

Where do you get the idea that God made a mistake? His lack of intervention in satan's rulership is part of his overall plan to get us back to paradise. The devil implied that he was the better ruler and humans fell for his propaganda....So God stepped back and allowed humans to experience satan's rule without much intervention from himself.
Satan also influenced many of his angelic brothers who were also given a pretty free hand. Only when they went too far did God step in the bring his purpose back on track....such as the global deluge.

Why do you suppose the world is in such a mess? We have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the devil's world is not somewhere any decent person wants to live. "Man dominates man to his injury" as Solomon stated.

The flood was a response to something God's spirit sons did without his permission. They, like humankind are free moral agents. They materialized human bodies (as other angelic beings have done) and co-habited with human women and produced a hybrid race of humans who did not have a right to exist. They were not Adam's children.

These violent, monstrous bullies influenced mankind at that time to become "bad from his youth up". It became so bad that God said he "felt regret" that he had made humans at all. Only Noah found favor in God's eyes. God told Noah how to save himself and his family.
He did not save Noah but showed him how to preserve his life and the lives of his family through a global cataclysm.
Jesus and the apostles then used this as an example of what was to come. (Matt 24:36-39; 2 Pet 2:4-6)

By bringing a global flood, God not only destroyed wicked humanity, and the violent source of the world's untenable situation at that time, but he forced the rebel angels to go back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them.

It's an excuse for your dogma to explain incest as a change in a being's health, and the rest of your garbage is dogma, and nothing but lies and excuses.

You are sounding anything but Christian right now. We have explained that God had no law against incest before he instructed Moses to write it down. Abraham, the most faithful human mentioned in the Bible was married to his half sister...There was no law forbidding it. Yet you want to judge them when God didn't.

I think we all know whose garbage is their dogma. You want to rewrite God's law to suit your own beliefs. Please rethink your position.

You worship a book, claim its final authority, take everything literal, things written by the Spirit of God and create religion, dogmatic junk. It's all vain. And this false prophet garbage is brainwashed to the entire world. The naive minds of mankind. If you had enough oil in your lamp, you'd clearly see the story of Noah, as well as the rest of scripture and the SPIRIT behind it all, not the literal and carnal and history lessons you perceive.

Your words are falling on deaf ears I'm afraid. Without credentials, your words are wasted here. If you cannot prove that God is backing what you say...you have no credibility. If you could back up what you say with scripture that would be something....but you have nothing but empty words.....and insults by the looks.

Your God makes mistakes and destroys the literal world, teaches incest, murder of children, has people slice and dice literal animals and fling their guts all over the place, and will return and destroy humans' and give everyone who are liars and book worshippers of literal junk the earth, female subjection, and whatever other garbage is taught. . . And then simply says this is the word of God that your literally and carnal eyes see so therefore anything spiritual is false.

Do we discern you losing your cool now? You can't prove anything, but we are all supposed to believe you. Why should we? That would make us as gullible as you appear to be. If Jesus needed proof of God's spirit in his ministry...why don't you?

You denigrate the God of the Bible and his past activities and fail to see the spiritual significance in the physical actions he implemented in his law. You treat his word as of no account, yet still claim to be a Christian....why?
You believe that only you know how to read what you downgrade as merely "a book". The spirit that speaks to you may well be the wrong spirit. If you have no company of fellow believers, then I believe that proves it.

My God does not make mistakes, nor has changed ever, and he saves lives by destroying someone's mistakes and their created world's, who humbly and purely seek Him. He saves. By washing and cleansing. Transforms lives. Teaches equality. Is just. Teaches to know oneself and find the inner man. Teaches love and humility, and selflessness.

Funny my God does too. But he is nothing like you describe.

I'll take my God. I'd stand alone in this world with God if need be. You keep on following mankind and the crowd. Once more, it's never too late to seek properly in spirit and truth.

If you followed the true God, you would never be alone in the world. You would be meeting with fellow believers who believe as you do in every nation on earth. Christians can never be alone.....do you get that?
If no one believes what you believe, then you are on the wrong spiritual track.

According to Revelation 3:9, you're gonna be the one bowing to the spiritual and inner man/woman. I truly don't want any of this falsity for you or any human.

So you see yourself as the one before whom others will bow?

Your choice to believe that of course, but don't hold your breath, will you?

 

[Unification]

You speak of "the deceived" as though that could not possible apply to yourself.....it does you know.

JW's do not believe that Jesus was "both God and man....fully God....a God....or just a man".

We believe that he is who he himself claimed to be...."the son of God".
That designation does not describe any of the above.



Where do you get the idea that God made a mistake? His lack of intervention in satan's rulership is part of his overall plan to get us back to paradise. The devil implied that he was the better ruler and humans fell for his propaganda....So God stepped back and allowed humans to experience satan's rule without much intervention from himself.
Satan also influenced many of his angelic brothers who were also given a pretty free hand. Only when they went too far did God step in the bring his purpose back on track....such as the global deluge.

Why do you suppose the world is in such a mess? We have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the devil's world is not somewhere any decent person wants to live. "Man dominates man to his injury" as Solomon stated.

The flood was a response to something God's spirit sons did without his permission. They, like humankind are free moral agents. They materialized human bodies (as other angelic beings have done) and co-habited with human women and produced a hybrid race of humans who did not have a right to exist. They were not Adam's children.

These violent, monstrous bullies influenced mankind at that time to become "bad from his youth up". It became so bad that God said he "felt regret" that he had made humans at all. Only Noah found favor in God's eyes. God told Noah how to save himself and his family.
He did not save Noah but showed him how to preserve his life and the lives of his family through a global cataclysm.
Jesus and the apostles then used this as an example of what was to come. (Matt 24:36-39; 2 Pet 2:4-6)

By bringing a global flood, God not only destroyed wicked humanity, and the violent source of the world's untenable situation at that time, but he forced the rebel angels to go back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them.



You are sounding anything but Christian right now. We have explained that God had no law against incest before he instructed Moses to write it down. Abraham, the most faithful human mentioned in the Bible was married to his half sister...There was no law forbidding it. Yet you want to judge them when God didn't.

I think we all know whose garbage is their dogma. You want to rewrite God's law to suit your own beliefs. Please rethink your position.



Your words are falling on deaf ears I'm afraid. Without credentials, your words are wasted here. If you cannot prove that God is backing what you say...you have no credibility. If you could back up what you say with scripture that would be something....but you have nothing but empty words.....and insults by the looks.



Do we discern you losing your cool now? You can't prove anything, but we are all supposed to believe you. Why should we? That would make us as gullible as you appear to be. If Jesus needed proof of God's spirit in his ministry...why don't you?

You denigrate the God of the Bible and his past activities and fail to see the spiritual significance in the physical actions he implemented in his law. You treat his word as of no account, yet still claim to be a Christian....why?
You believe that only you know how to read what you downgrade as merely "a book". The spirit that speaks to you may well be the wrong spirit. If you have no company of fellow believers, then I believe that proves it.



Funny my God does too. But he is nothing like you describe.


If you followed the true God, you would never be alone in the world. You would be meeting with fellow believers who believe as you do in every nation on earth. Christians can never be alone.....do you get that?
If no one believes what you believe, then you are on the wrong spiritual track.


So you see yourself as the one before whom others will bow?

Your choice to believe that of course, but don't hold your breath, will you?

You are a Charles Taze Russell witness, as well as a governing body of mankind's carnality witness and under jurisdiction of mankind. Not God's. You err in everything you say.

Enough said.

 

[cataway]

You are a Charles Taze Russell witness, as well as a governing body of mankind's carnality witness and under jurisdiction of mankind. Not God's. You err in everything you say.

Enough said.

Say what you will my self I like what Peter said "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.''

what I am saying is you have nothing to offer. what you would do is just take away

 

[cataway]

Yeah, but do YOU understand that Jesus didnt exist before his birth? He came down from heaven, yes, but with other parts of the bible, we know that he didnt pre-exist. He came from God. Not physically, but he was part of God's plans.

.

you saying he did not exist until he was conceived by his mother mary and yet there are many scriptures that do say he was there in heaven and returned there a few days after his death .
There is an account in the book of John that shows many were bothered by what Jesus said ,(perhaps much like your self) Jesus said ;
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things as he was teaching in a synagoguea in Ca·perʹna·um.

60 When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?''

I have to ask ,how is it you can ignore all thing that were written ? how is it you can be just like the ones that left him so long ago ?

 

[Unification]

@Unification What are you doing in the sub-forum Scriptural Debates? Your source of truth is whatever that spirit is that speaks to your inner man and not the Bible.

Is this thread not for people to discuss scripture? As you are not pointing to scripture itself, I am not sure what you are doing here.

Sure, let's debate. Starting Luke Chapter 17, break down the entire chapter for me. What's the literal man see?

 

[Unification]

Funny. None of the Jehovah's Witnesses that visit this forum currently have ever claimed to be Jews - not even spiritual Jews. So I don't think you can make this apply to us.

"Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying - look! I will make them come and bow (or "do obeisance.") before your feet and make them know that I have loved you."

Do you see yourself as a Jew?

(As the KJV uses the word "worship" here I am curious how it would would have related to the debate @katiemygirl and @Pegg were having over who gets our worship and thus who falls under the title of "God". If "bow/do obeisance" is always to be "worship", then there is more than the projected 3 in the "God" much of Christendom worships.)

Nor does one find the words "Christian" of "Jehovah witnesses" in the revealing of Christ either, not from any words of Christ.

Do your natural eyes still see Jews as a heritage and literally? Are there two separate and different forms of salvation that God offers? One for the Jews and one for Jehovah witnesses? Do you teach that every heritage Jew is an auto-save because they are heritage Jews?

 

[moorea944]

you saying he did not exist until he was conceived by his mother mary and yet there are many scriptures that do say he was there in heaven and returned there a few days after his death .
There is an account in the book of John that shows many were bothered by what Jesus said ,(perhaps much like your self) Jesus said ;
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things as he was teaching in a synagoguea in Ca·perʹna·um.

60 When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?''

I have to ask ,how is it you can ignore all thing that were written ? how is it you can be just like the ones that left him so long ago ?

I"m not ignoring anything. We just look at scripture differently. Your side is more trinitarian, mine is more scripture.

First of all, "heaven" is not in verse 62 at all. Since you actually believe that Jesus did pre-exist, you put heaven in there to fit your beliefs. Let's take a look at some other views.



WHAT IF YOU SEE THE SON OF MAN ASCEND TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE!: This might refer to his ascending out of grave to stand on earth again. He would now be in his immortality. This proof of his resurrection was seen by hundreds, but the proof of his ascension by only 11. This seems to fit better than Jesus pre-existing.

Or it can mean to where he was before in God's mind and plans.

you saying he did not exist until he was conceived by his mother mary and yet there are many scriptures that do say he was there in heaven and returned there a few days after his death .

There are no verses that tell us that he was in heaven before his brith. And it wasnt really a few days, it was 40, then he went into heaven. First time too.

 

[Kenny]

I"m not ignoring anything. We just look at scripture differently. Your side is more trinitarian, mine is more scripture.

I don't understand... are you saying that if you are looking through scripture as trinitarian, it is not scripture?

There are no verses that tell us that he was in heaven before his brith. And it wasnt really a few days, it was 40, then he went into heaven. First time too.

John 8:58 Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

John 8:38 I am telling you what I saw when I was with my Father.

Phil 2:
5 Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had.
6 Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God.
7 He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form.
8 And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross.

There are others.

 

[JM2C]

John 1:1 is no proof of a trinity because no threesome is even mentioned.
There is no indefinite article ("a" or "an") in Greek. That means that every time you see an indefinite article in the English translation, it wasn't there in the Greek text.
Only the definite article (the) is used in Greek. Now have a look at how many times you see an "a" or an "an" in your Bible and then tell me how you know that "a" doesn't belong in John 1:1?
It is up to the translators to insert the indefinite article in order to aid understanding.
Bias dictates whether to use the "a" or not.

Exactly! There was no “a” in Greek and “bias dictates whether to use the ‘a’ or not” and you guys chose to use the “a” even if it’s against the Greek word order. Trinitarians did not alter John 1:1 by adding and subtracting from Greek to English but you guys did.

If you could only read and understand this then we won’t have any problem with John 1:1:

The predicate nominative in the 3rd clause is the word “theos/God” and the linking verb is the word “en/was” and the subject is the “ho logos/the Word”. Think of the linking verb “was/en” as an equal sign. Then it would read like this: “and the Word = God”

You can’t just slap an “a” in that verse without reading the whole verse or the entire chapter or the entire gospel of John.

Since there is no direct statement of a trinity in any verse of the Bible, it is trinitarian bias that rendered it the way it is translated in the KJV and others....pure and simple.

The first 2 verses of the bible, i.e., Genesis 1:1-2 we could read the Son of God as the creator of the Heavens and the earth and in verse 2 we read the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God. IOW, in these 2 verses alone we can see the Trinity. The word “BARA” in the pictographs is literally means “the Son of God”.

In John 1:1 “In the beginning, i.e., in Genesis 1:1 BARA, the Son of God, was the Word”, and the Word [BARA, the Son of God] was with God, and the Word [BARA, the Son of God] was God.

There was no other “a god/s” before the beginning.

 

[JM2C]

If you really believe that scripture then you would not accept that which Christ never taught.


1. Jesus never said he was God.

Here we go again for the 20th times ahem, ahem, ahem.

Please read and understand as I will NOT repeat this again.

The Son of God is God. Please read and understand the 2nd clause of John 1:1 “and the Word, i.e., the Son of God, was/en, i.e., before the beginning in eternity, was with the God.”

Here we have the Son of God as not the God the Father. IOW, here we have two personal beings in existence before the beginning in the 2nd clause. Do you understand this? Or are you denying this?

Now, in the 3rd clause it says: “and the Word, i.e., The Son of God from the 2nd clause [NOT the Father], was/en, i.e., before the beginning or in eternity, God. How can you argue from this? Your argument “a god” cannot sustain it for the simple reason that you cannot arrive to your twisted conclusion if you will base the 3rd clause from clauses 1 and 2.

 

[JM2C]

The Catholic Church did that and then made Mary into God's mother. Blasphemy!

Not a member of rcc.

2. His Father never said his son was in any way equal to himself. No one could be. To place any "god" (mighty one) in the same position as the Father is to break the first Commandment. (Ex 20:3)

Read post #542 again for the 20th times, ahem, ahem, ahem.

That is why the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be an “a god” because that would make Him as “another/heteros/different” god that God forbids in Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me”

But your interpretation/alteration of John 1:1 to “a god” from “God” means you actually acknowledging that there are more than one god before the beginning and if you preach the Jesus that you know as an “a god” then you are literally preaching polytheism and that makes you a pagan.

 

[Kenny]

Then, of course, even the Jehovah Witness Bible expresses that Jesus is God Jehovah

 

[Unification]

Then, of course, even the Jehovah Witness Bible expresses that Jesus is God Jehovah

Shhhh, don't tell. A new version may have to be created.

 

[melk]

Can someone explain the Trinity please...No.

Let me try to explain you in a simple manner. For christians, Jesus has a central role in the new convenat made by God with his people, both because of his atonement and his teachings, as well as the role he plays in God's kingdom.
The controversy arises as we seek to understand his nature. Every christian agrees that it is sinless. Most would say it has a divine character. Others go far and believe it is the same as God's. These last ones usually group together as trinitarians. They believe in one God, constituted by three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit. And present it as a mistery to be accepted by the believers.
The Trinity is a concept not clearly suported by Scriptures. While the NT is full of passages that names Jesus the Son of God, there is none that clearly titles him God himself, placing him in the same level as the Father.

 

[Kenny]

Let me try to explain you in a simple manner. For christians, Jesus has a central rule in the new convenat made by God with his people, both because of his atonement and his teachings, as well as the role he plays in God's kingdom.
The controversy arises as we seek to understand his nature. Every christian agrees that it is sinless. Most would say it has a divine character. Others go far and believe it is the same as God's. These last ones usually group together as trinitarians. They believe in one God, constituted by three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit. And present it as a mistery to be accepted by the believers.
The Trinity is a concept not clearly suported by Scriptures. While the NT is full of passages that names Jesus the Son of God, there is none that clearly titles him God himself, placing him in the same level as the Father.

I would correct a portion of this and say most believe it is the same as God - the Father. Not that it is a mystery but rather a revelation that is accepted because it is clearly supported by scriptures throughout the two Testaments.