Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Muffled]

Oh my! Previous lives? You didn't get that from the Bible!

What a terrible thing to say about your own daughter.

I believe I most certainly did.

I believe she isn't me and facts are facts. I can't lead her life for her and have done my best for her but it is never easy to convert a sinner. She loves her sin but she is also the closest of my kids to God although my other daughter got a little closer with the Mormons for a while.

 

[Muffled]

Actually, I never think of any of them as "a god" either -- but always as "God." The confusion appears to arise when I hear someone say that there is "one God in three persons." When I say, "Are these three persons divine?" the answer is always "Yes, of course." And then I ask, "But what is a synonym for the phrase 'divine person'?" Obviously a "divine person" is a "god." So you have "three divine persons" constituting "one God." That's agreeable to everyone, but as soon as you say "three gods" constituting "one God," it becomes blasphemy. To me, it's all a matter of nuances in how the words are understood.

Then I agree with you completely.

Amen! That is a perfect explanation of what I believe, too!

Just to clarify, we don't believe the Holy Spirit to be physical. As a matter of fact, we believe that the reason He is known by that title ("the Holy Spirit") is because His lack of a physical body is what distinguishes Him from the Father and the Son. It is because He is solely spirit that He can both fill the universe and reside within a person's heart. We do believe the Father and the Son to both have physical bodies, though. We can talk about that more if you'd like.

That's nice to hear.

I would say that's a very accurate way of putting it.

I'll get back to you later on today on this. Meanwhile, could you explain your position with respect to the way in which they are three? I suspect it's not all that different from mine. I know we both believe that Jesus Christ exists as a physical being. I know we both believe that the Holy Spirit does not. I think it's just the Father that we differ on. Am I right about that?

You're welcome. I'm glad we decided to give it a fresh start.

I agree that three persons would normally mean three gods. I believe the problem is that the church is not using the word "person" according to its true meanings but has attached an ecclesistical meaning to the word and thus has confused millions of people in the process.

 

[Muffled]

What you believe isn't at issue. What is historical is the issue.

Are you going to try to aver that a baby has beliefs due to the historical record?

 

[Unification]

I can honestly say I have never promoted the bible ''as God''. I have however promoted the bible as the written word of God.

you have also said, at post #1678 that ,'' i am going past what is written in the OT '' . and yet for some unknown reason you promote doctrines that are not even in the bible .
for your part ,it would be good if you would ask us what we hold to be true. and please stop making accusations about what we hold to be true.

It is pleasing to finally see a response and not a reaction. Thank you, truly mean that.
I will continue to plead for the religiously righteous which are lost. You are a human just as I, and you matter more than myself.
It's dangerous when one isn't aware of what they do.
It is dangerous to apply everything or most of what it written by God and apply it literally.
I'm not trying to indoctrinate you, or anyone, the pureness of my heart genuinely wants one to approach God properly, being brought low and humbled, removed from their own throne and come with a clear, still, open mind and let the one master teach one.

 

[JM2C]

Who gives Jesus his authority to do anything? He does not claim to BE the authority but to have it granted to him by his Father. (Matt 28:19)

Who granted Jesus his power on earth?

Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

At the end all believers’ and unbelievers’ knees will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father. That is an awesome Father of the Lord Jesus Christ by giving HIM such authority, the right to exercise power.

MT 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “ All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Do you any name in heaven and here on earth the Father/God gave such authority to like the one He gave to the Lord Jesus Christ? NONE!

 

[JM2C]

Before his anointing he was just plain Jesus of Nazareth.He became "the Christ" with his anointing at age 30.

LK 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

If he was fully God and fully man, why was this not in evidence before his baptism?

MT 1:23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Moffatt renders it "There is a young woman with child, who shall bear a son and call his name Immanuel"

By supporting moffatt’s translations you/jw are literally denying the virgin birth of the Lord Jesus Christ and John 1:14 “and the Word became flesh”

 

[JM2C]

Why were his own siblings unconvinced that he was the Messiah until after he died?

Have you heard of “unbelief”. Your sin is unbelief and nothing else.

JN 7:5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him.

JN 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

 

[JM2C]

If he had miraculous abilities, they would have known about it. His fellow countrymen described him as merely "the carpenter's son".....meaning that there was nothing really special about him growing up.

Jn 6:42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
Jn 7:15 The Jews were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having studied?”

You/jw and the Jews back then all have the same unbelief/doubt/questions or You/jw are doing the same thing today what the Jews were doing then, but after they [and you/jw today] questioned His “miraculous abilities” the Lord Jesus Christ said, “Stop grumbling among yourselves, -John 6:43”. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day –John 6:44”. “My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. –John 7:16”. “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand –John 10:28”. “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [His enemies, the devil and his angels]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. -John 10:29” “My Father and I are one –John 10:30”

 

[JM2C]

If he was fully God, how is it possible that he needed to sit with the teachers of the law asking them questions?

“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house? –Luke 2:49”.

From the very beginning the Lord Jesus Christ knew who His Father was.

The same way you/jw knew who your father is “You belong to your father, the devil –John 8:44”

Jn 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[JM2C]

He was not known as a teacher until after his baptism.

Was there any records in the four gospels of the Lord Jesus Christ before His baptism except His birth and when He was 12 years old –Luke 2:42?

 

[JM2C]

Jesus also said "the Father is greater than I am"...what do you make of that? If you apply the same meaning to the words above, then you have a dilemma.

”God is greater than all” within the context of John 10:29, and that is, greater than His enemies. In the context it says, “no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” because “God is greater than all” His adversaries in reference to verses 10-12 “the thief” “a hired hand” and the “wolf” known as the devil and his angels.

JN 14:28 “ You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

You assumed that the meaning of the word “greater” here in John 14:28 is the same as the one in John 10:29. Yes, it’s the same word [greater/meizon SG3187] but they deliver different meanings within the context or in a sentence where the word is being use.

Therefore, you cannot make a conclusion then that the Lord Jesus Christ is the same or part of God’s adversaries in John 10:29 because they use the same word “greater” in John 14:28. If you do, and I think you already did, then you would have the same thought or thinking as the Jews in verse 20, “Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him? John 10:20”

So, your interpretation of “greater” between God/Father and the Lord Jesus Christ is about inferiority and therefore there is no equality between them as far as the works the Lord Jesus Christ did here on earth. So, your understanding of the word “greater than I” is as inferiority of person or nature.

Now, If the disciples will do “greater” works than the Lord Jesus Christ in John 14:12, then they are more superior or “greater” than Him and therefore there is no equality between the Lord Jesus Christ’s works while He was here on earth and His disciples’ works.

“Greater than I” in the context of John 14:28 is not like inferiority of person or nature or rank, because in essence or quality the “Lord Jesus Christ and the Father” as suggested in John 10:30 “are one” in essence.

And “greater works than” in John 14:12 is not like inferiority of works because the essence or quality of all the works that the Lord Jesus Christ did, while in the flesh –John 1:14, here on earth and His disciples’ all equally came from the same Father/God.

The quality or essence in the Triune God is the same or equal with each other as John 10:30 suggested “I and the Father are one” otherwise there will be conflict in the Triune God if one is greater than the other as in one is inferior than the other. IOW, if God/Father is saying something then the God/Son cannot say it differently from what the God/Father was saying.

JN 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

 

[JM2C]

Plurality does not always mean multiples. 'Elo-him' was also used with non-trinitarian false gods such as Dagon (1 Sa 5:7b), Ashtoreth (1 Ki 11:5), and Marduk (Da 1:2b). These examples show that sometimes the Hebrew uses the plural of 'eloh'ah intensively. It denotes majesty, dignity, or excellence.

'Elo-him' is also used to denote a simple plurality, But you can not assume that to be the case.

We are debating Deuteronomy 6:4, are we not? Who better knows the words “Elohim”, “echad”, and “yachid” but the Jews, right?

Why do you think Maimonides was so eager/zealous to change the word “echad, a unified one” to “yachid, an only one” if the word “Elohim” does not really mean what it meant, and that is, a unified one or echad?

GE 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

This is the first indication of the Trinity in the bible and was written by Moses, a Jew or Hebrew. Have you ever thought of this verse?

 

[cataway]

there is no trinity .there is no room for any other understanding in the fallowing scriptures

(Deuteronomy 5:7) You must never have any other gods besides me.


(Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.

(Zechariah 14:9) And Jehovah will be King over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will be one, and his name one.

(Mark 12:29) Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,

(Mark 12:32) The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;

(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

 

[JayJayDee]

Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

If Jesus was fully God and fully man, how could he possibly be given a name above what he already has? Who can give God a name that he doesn't already have?

In Ex 3:15 Jehovah (YHWH) stated that he has one name that was to be his alone forever. God does not change his name, because he does not need to, but Jesus does. Jesus is not Jehovah, but his created son. Are you your father? What is the point of describing themselves as "father and son" if this is not their true relationship? We humans have a concept of this relationship, yet trinitarians want us to believe that father and son in this relationship are equals. They never were. Even in heaven, YHWH is the God of Jesus. (Rev 3:12)

Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again, the truth is right there under your nose. Whose glory does Jesus reflect?
If Jesus is God why is he not promoting his own 'equal' glory? Why did he never once admit to being God Almighty?

At the end all believers’ and unbelievers’ knees will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father. That is an awesome Father of the Lord Jesus Christ by giving HIM such authority, the right to exercise power.

If Jesus was God and equal to his Father in every way, how is it that the Father needs to 'give' him authority, "in heaven and on earth", to exercise power? Do you see how ridiculous your argument is?

MT 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “ All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Do you any name in heaven and here on earth the Father/God gave such authority to like the one He gave to the Lord Jesus Christ? NONE!

Since Jesus is a servant of his superior Father, that is not surprising. He alone was given the assignment as Messiah and mediator. Does it never occur to trinitarians that the barrier that separates man from the Father, somehow doesn't apply to his "equal"? If we need a mediator between us and God...how come we don't need a mediator between us and Jesus? Does that make sense to you?

It's all there in the scriptures you quote, but there is a 'blindness' in trinitarians that is not explainable except by 2 Cor 4:3, 4.

 

[moorea944]

If Jesus was fully God and fully man, how could he possibly be given a name above what he already has? Who can give God a name that he doesn't already have?

In Ex 3:15 Jehovah (YHWH) stated that he has one name that was to be his alone forever. God does not change his name, because he does not need to, but Jesus does. Jesus is not Jehovah, but his created son. Are you your father? What is the point of describing themselves as "father and son" if this is not their true relationship? We humans have a concept of this relationship, yet trinitarians want us to believe that father and son in this relationship are equals. They never were. Even in heaven, YHWH is the God of Jesus. (Rev 3:12)



Again, the truth is right there under your nose. Whose glory does Jesus reflect?
If Jesus is God why is he not promoting his own 'equal' glory? Why did he never once admit to being God Almighty?



If Jesus was God and equal to his Father in every way, how is it that the Father needs to 'give' him authority, "in heaven and on earth", to exercise power? Do you see how ridiculous your argument is?



Since Jesus is a servant of his superior Father, that is not surprising. He alone was given the assignment as Messiah and mediator. Does it never occur to trinitarians that the barrier that separates man from the Father, somehow doesn't apply to his "equal"? If we need a mediator between us and God...how come we don't need a mediator between us and Jesus? Does that make sense to you?

It's all there in the scriptures you quote, but there is a 'blindness' in trinitarians that is not explainable except by 2 Cor 4:3, 4.

Awesome post, thank you. And how true!! And... even when Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his Father, scripture tells us that he will "still" be subject to his Father... That's co-equal? That's Jesus as God? Absolutely not!!!! He is the son of God. HE was begotten, the first born. Begotten by the spirit of God.

 

[JayJayDee]

LK 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
MT 1:23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

What does the title "Christ" mean? It means "anointed one". Was Jesus anointed at birth? No, but he was born to be the Christ. His anointing took place at his baptism, at the age of 30, where he was anointed with holy spirit in order to carry out his ministry as Jesus the "Christ".

Moffatt renders it "There is a young woman with child, who shall bear a son and call his name Immanuel"

By supporting moffatt’s translations you/jw are literally denying the virgin birth of the Lord Jesus Christ and John 1:14 “and the Word became flesh”

We do not promote Moffat's translation, but offer it simply to demonstrate that not all translations support trinitarian bias.
The word "maiden" in Hebrew can mean a young married woman as well as a virgin. That is why it was given as an example.

We have never denied the virgin birth. Nor do we deny that "the Word became flesh". What we deny is that the Word was "ho theos" (THE God) which John 1:1 does NOT say. The Word was "with" THE God and the Word was god. (No definite article.) Elsewhere in the scriptures the indefinite article ("a" or "an") is applied in English, but just not in this instance because it does not support the trinity.

Read your Bible and see how many times an "a" or an "an" is used in the NT. Not one of them was there in the original text. When the definite article (the) is used with "theos", it is always speaking about Jehovah. When you have more than one of those described as "theos" mentioned in one passage of scripture and you are distinguishing between one who is god-like or divine and the true God, the definite article in Greek makes the application plain. There is but one "ho theos" in John 1:1.
You are conveniently forgetting that "theos" is a title that means "mighty one"....it is not used exclusively for the Father. The Word was divine......a "mighty one".....a "god".....just not THE God.

How many times will you ignore this?

 

[JayJayDee]

You/jw and the Jews back then all have the same unbelief/doubt/questions or You/jw are doing the same thing today what the Jews were doing then

And yet you cannot see that you are emulating the Pharisees attitude of promoting the "traditions of men" which Jesus said invalidated the word of God.

Let me give you an example of what you ignore when you highlight part of a verse......

the Lord Jesus Christ said, “Stop grumbling among yourselves, -John 6:43”. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day –John 6:44”.

Read this again. But look at what I would highlight.....

“Stop grumbling among yourselves, -John 6:43”. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day –John 6:44”

Why does the Father need to "draw" people to his son? If the son is God, couldn't he draw them himself....being equal in power and all?

What does it mean that Jesus will "raise him up at the last day"? When and what is "the last day"?

“My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. –John 7:16”. “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand –John 10:28”.

"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. –John 7:16”.
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

If Jesus is God, why does he need to be "given" teachings from his Father. Would he not have his own teachings if he were both the sender and the one sent?

How does Jesus give us humans "eternal life"? Is it not by offering his life in exchange for ours? As the appointed king of God's kingdom, he is the one who will rule mankind for 1,000 years, reconciling all humanity with his Father before handing rulership back to its rightful sovereign......who is also his sovereign. This is why Jehovah is still his God even in heaven.

“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [His enemies, the devil and his angels]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. -John 10:29” “My Father and I are one –John 10:30”

“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. -John 10:29” “My Father and I are one –John 10:30

Who needs to "give" God anything? Where is this equality you promote? I can't see it at all. I see an obedient son, doing the will of his Father, being sent by him on a mission. In all his ministry, he never once claimed equality with his own God and Father. How can God have a God?

John 17:21, 22....."so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

There it is in black and white (with a touch of red).

 

[Kolibri]

GE 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

This is the first indication of the Trinity in the bible and was written by Moses, a Jew or Hebrew. Have you ever thought of this verse?

Yes, I have looked at this verse many times. It does not sit as a mystery to me. John 1:3 tells us who God was talking to - Jesus in his pre-human form (the only human to have lived before becoming a human.)

"All things came into existence through [Jesus aka the Word], and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

And in vs 10 - "and the world came into existence through him"

And 1 Cor 8:6 - "and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

And Col 1:15-17 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible....All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist."

 

[moorea944]

We are debating Deuteronomy 6:4, are we not? Who better knows the words “Elohim”, “echad”, and “yachid” but the Jews, right?

Why do you think Maimonides was so eager/zealous to change the word “echad, a unified one” to “yachid, an only one” if the word “Elohim” does not really mean what it meant, and that is, a unified one or echad?

GE 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

This is the first indication of the Trinity in the bible and was written by Moses, a Jew or Hebrew. Have you ever thought of this verse?

"and God said, Let us..." That is not a trinity at all. That is "Elohim" in Hebrew. That is Yahweh and the angels. God manfestation. God manifest in a multitude. That angels. Jesus wasnt born yet. He did not pre-exist. God said he will be begotten, he will be my first born.

 

[Kolibri]

"and God said, Let us..." That is not a trinity at all. That is "Elohim" in Hebrew. That is Yahweh and the angels. God manfestation. God manifest in a multitude. That angels. Jesus wasnt born yet. He did not pre-exist. God said he will be begotten, he will be my first born.

what is creation in your estimation? is is merely what we can define as being made by the things we find on the periodic table? or does it include angels and the heavens they live in?

if angels too are created things, would not the person we know of as Jesus need to have existed as first-formed among them?