Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[cataway]

"and God said, Let us..." That is not a trinity at all. That is "Elohim" in Hebrew. That is Yahweh and the angels. God manfestation. God manifest in a multitude. That angels. Jesus wasnt born yet. He did not pre-exist. God said he will be begotten, he will be my first born.

there are just to many scriptures that do indicate the one who became jesus did indeed easiest long before he came down from heaven



(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.


(John 6:38) for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

(John 6:62) What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

(John 8:23) He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.

(John 8:42) Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.

(John 8:58) Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

 

[moorea944]

what is creation in your estimation? is is merely what we can define as being made by the things we find on the periodic table? or does it include angels and the heavens they live in?

if angels too are created things, would not the person we know of as Jesus need to have existed as first-formed among them?

Absolutely not. Angels were created but not at our creation. Jesus was born, he did not pre-exist. You cant be God and man at the same time. Or you cant go from immortal to mortal to immortal.

 

[Unification]

Absolutely not. Angels were created but not at our creation. Jesus was born, he did not pre-exist. You cant be God and man at the same time. Or you cant go from immortal to mortal to immortal.

Poison.

 

[cataway]

Angels were created but not at our creation

true angels came inbeing long before man

 

[cataway]

Jesus was born

yes, Jesus was born ,its the only way he could become human

 

[cataway]

You cant be God and man at the same time.

I have no intention of ever being a God and neither did/does Jesus

 

[Kolibri]

Absolutely not. Angels were created but not at our creation. Jesus was born, he did not pre-exist. You cant be God and man at the same time. Or you cant go from immortal to mortal to immortal.

Angels though are not immortal. If they were then Satan, the first rebel angel, could not be destroyed in the second death. Angels can be put to death.
Jesus as an angel becoming human would not be a case of an immortal becoming mortal, but a mortal remaining mortal. Immortality for a created spirit was something new with Jesus' resurrection. Only angels that pre-exist as humans are granted this "deathlessness." The rest of the angels remain mortal.

likewise, mortal does not mean someone will die. All it means is that death is possible.

I am reminded again of Col 1:16 where it says "by means of him all other things were created [including] the things invisible."

 

[cataway]

Or you cant go from immortal to mortal to immortal

no I nor any man how ever you say it cant be done . why cant it be done ?

 

[neologist]

The trinity fallacy not only dishonors God and trivializes Jesus' sacrifice, it is also an example of the doctrines nonbelievers cite as ridicule to believers. Jesus both God and God's son? To whom did he pray. Can you imagine him saying in agony "Oh me. Oh my. Why have I forsaken myself?

 

[lovemuffin]

Why do you think it trivializes the sacrifice, because it doesn't "really" involve a death or sacrifice if Jesus is divine? Presumably, given the resurrection, that sort of criticism could be leveled regardless of Jesus' divinity, i.e that nothing was really sacrificed.

From the orthodox perspective, the crucifixion and resurrection could not really save mankind if Jesus was not God, because it's not just a question of a sacrifice for sin but of God transforming human nature by assuming that same nature.

 

[Kolibri]

Since Jesus is not God but the first created being, Colossians 2:18 is rather scathing.

"Let no man deprive you of the prize who takes delight a false humility and a form of worship of the angels, "taking his stand on" the things he has seen. He is actually puffed up without proper cause by his fleshly frame of mind." - Colossians 2:18

The origin of such a 'form of worship', or religion, is implicated by the phrase "taking his stand on". This phrase is a quote from pagan mystery (initiation) rites.

 

[moorea944]

Poison.

Poison in what way? Your way of thinking?

 

[moorea944]

I have no intention of ever being a God and neither did/does Jesus

I did say you wanted to be God. And your right about Jesus too. He never wanted to be God.

 

[moorea944]

Angels though are not immortal. If they were then Satan, the first rebel angel, could not be destroyed in the second death. Angels can be put to death.
Jesus as an angel becoming human would not be a case of an immortal becoming mortal, but a mortal remaining mortal. Immortality for a created spirit was something new with Jesus' resurrection. Only angels that pre-exist as humans are granted this "deathlessness." The rest of the angels remain mortal.

likewise, mortal does not mean someone will die. All it means is that death is possible.

I am reminded again of Col 1:16 where it says "by means of him all other things were created [including] the things invisible."

Angels are immortal and cannot sin. In some cases, the translators have put in the word "Angel" when it is not suppose to. God has always had immortality. Angels and Jesus were given that. When your immortal, you dont sin. If you sin, you die. Angels cant sin or die. Jesus says that we will be like the angels someday. Immortal and sinless. And as for satan in the bible... what is it? You should really do a study on that one. The're are no rebel angels. Paul says that ALL angels do God's will.

 

[moorea944]

no I nor any man how ever you say it cant be done . why cant it be done ?

Well, think about it. .... If your immortal, you cant die. Jesus died, then raised, then immortal. Since he didnt pre-exist, he was born, a man, with our nature. That nature had to be put to death.

 

[Kolibri]

Angels are immortal and cannot sin. In some cases, the translators have put in the word "Angel" when it is not suppose to. God has always had immortality. Angels and Jesus were given that. When your immortal, you dont sin. If you sin, you die. Angels cant sin or die. Jesus says that we will be like the angels someday. Immortal and sinless. And as for satan in the bible... what is it? You should really do a study on that one. The're are no rebel angels. Paul says that ALL angels do God's will.

"So it was with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown with corruption; it is raised up in incorruption....But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption....For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is moral must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: "Death is swallowed up forever." - 1 Cor 15:42,50,53,54

Immortality and Incorruption virtually mean the same thing. Where Immortality is literally "deathlessness", Incorruption is literally unspoilable.

However this does not apply to angels either. Why? Spirit creatures in general are corruptible.

"Then he will say to those on his left: 'Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." - Mt 25:41

"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tar'ta-rus, putting them into chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgement." - 2 Pe 2:4

"Now in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit, an unclean demon, and he shouted with a loud voice: 'Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Nazarene? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.'" - Lu 4:33,34

However, 1 Cor 15 is not the passage you were thinking of. No doubt you were thinking of Lu 20:36?

"In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God's children by being children of the resurrection."

How can this be harmonized with Mt 25:41, 2 Pe 2:4; Lu 4:33,34? Jesus was most likely answering the Sadducees question about the resurrection in a way so as to give insight into what it would be like for those that partake of the 1st resurrection specifically. In saying they would be "like the angels" he was merely saying with those 3 words that they would have bodies made of spirit instead of flesh and blood. Oh and they would also, unlike the angels, be "deathless".

 

[JayJayDee]

Well, think about it. .... If your immortal, you cant die. Jesus died, then raised, then immortal. Since he didnt pre-exist, he was born, a man, with our nature. That nature had to be put to death.

Can I just ask you why you don't believe that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with his Father before his human birth?
Do you believe that he was the Word....the "Logos" or spokesman for God who was "with" him "in the beginning"?

If all creation came "through" the son, that was eons before Jesus was born as a human child. (Col1:15, 16)
He was "begotten" as the first of God's creations......the "only begotten" son was the first and only direct creation of the Father....all creation then came through the agency of the son. He was the "master craftsman" working alongside his Father (Prov 8:30, 31)....the one to whom he said..."let US make man in OUR image and likeness". Was God talking to himself?

At John 8:23 ....Jesus "went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world."

Jesus is called "the beginning of God's creation" in Rev 3:14.

The scriptures say that he came down from heaven. He said he would ascend to "where he was before". And have the glory he "had with the Father before the world was".

This indicates that Jesus was a spirit person before his human birth. Why is that a problem in your belief?

 

[Unification]

I have no intention of ever being a God and neither did/does Jesus

You are like a god though, friend. We all have the power and ability to create... Both good and evil, both love and hate, both peace and hell, both light and darkness, both truth and lies for ourselves and to others. Within and external creation. Mind and brain of mankind are pretty powerful. . Especially when humans' join in teams.

 

[moorea944]

Can I just ask you why you don't believe that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with his Father before his human birth?
Do you believe that he was the Word....the "Logos" or spokesman for God who was "with" him "in the beginning"?

If all creation came "through" the son, that was eons before Jesus was born as a human child. (Col1:15, 16)
He was "begotten" as the first of God's creations......the "only begotten" son was the first and only direct creation of the Father....all creation then came through the agency of the son. He was the "master craftsman" working alongside his Father (Prov 8:30, 31)....the one to whom he said..."let US make man in OUR image and likeness". Was God talking to himself?

At John 8:23 ....Jesus "went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world."

Jesus is called "the beginning of God's creation" in Rev 3:14.

The scriptures say that he came down from heaven. He said he would ascend to "where he was before". And have the glory he "had with the Father before the world was".

This indicates that Jesus was a spirit person before his human birth. Why is that a problem in your belief?

Great post, thanks.

A few things i'll comment on. I"ll start with, Let us.... That is not Christ, that is God and the angels.

John 1, Jesus is not the "whole" "word". The "word" in John is logos. Logos IS God's word. It is His plans, thoughts and reasons. It is not talking about "just Jesus". It is everything. In the beginning, God spoke.......

All creation was made through his son.... what does that really mean. Does that mean that Jesus was there "with" the Father at creation? No. It is saying that Jesus was there in God's plans, His mind. His son was the focal point. But it doesnt mean that he was there.

Jesus was sent into the world. Does that mean he started "from' heaven? No, he was sent into the world to preach, to save. John came from God to and he was sent into the world. Was John in heaven as a starting point? No. The mana came from God to. Did it start in heaven and float down to earth? No, it was there in the morning.

Jesus did come from God, God knew him before he was born, same with us.

 

[JM2C]

He could do nothing without the holy spirit.

And if you were to read the gospel of John in Greek, you would not see a trinity of any description. If you are trained to read it into verses in the gospels you will see nothing else....but in Greek it is missing, just as a triune godhead was completely missing in the OT. If Jesus was Jewish, he never taught such a blasphemous thing because it is a breach of the first commandment. So who are the "workers of lawlessness"?

From these verses you will see the Triune God or the Trinity.

JN 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another/ALLOS Helper, that He may be with you forever;
JN 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

JN 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

JN 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Notice the word “another/allos” in 14:16. The meaning of “another/allos” is the same in nature or one like the Lord Jesus Christ, or “allos, another like Himself, and not heteros –W.E. Vine”.

IOW, here we read the “Helper/Parakleton”, i.e., the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, and the Lord Jesus Christ are one like “I and the Father are one –John 10:30”.

The other meaning of “another/other” is “heteros/different” Example: “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me –Exodus 20:3”

Now, if the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father are one [John 10:30], and the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are one [John 14:16], and the Holy Spirit and God/Father are one [Acts 5:3-4 “you have lied to the Holy Spirit –v3” and “You have not lied to men but to God –v4”] then there is only ONE conclusion to this, and that is, The One/Echad/Unified LORD is our God/Elohim, and God/Elohim being plural shows that God, i.e., [God/Father, God/Son, God/Holy Spirit described in John 10:30, John 14:16, and Acts 5:3-4] are all ONE/Echad/Unified LORD, that is more than one, yet is "ONE/ECHAD-SH259 United Jehovah/LORD". Hence, we have the Trinity.

Now, your interpretation/alteration of John 1:1 to an “a god” from “God” means you actually acknowledging that there are more than one god before the beginning and if you preach the Jesus that you know as an “a god” instead of “God” then you are literally preaching polytheism and that makes you a pagan.

IOW, you have “another/different/heteros/ gods before God and that is a clear violation of Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me –Exodus 20:3”