You are forgetting to take this passage into account:
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Paul was writing to people alive then in the church of Corinth. If they all died and slept, he lied to them.
I see you have a preference for the KJV? Do you speak that kind of English today? I don't, and it just confuses the socks off me. Can we use a modern English version so that the scriptures speak the same language we do? I will quote from the NASB or one of your choice.
The verse you feel I am failing to take into account, is part of an entire passage. Can we see how Paul's words relate in context to the subject of 1 Corinthians 15?.....
The main objective of this chapter is Christ’s resurrection as a guarantee for all other resurrections.....and the fact that spirit-anointed Christians must die and forfeit their earthly bodies in order to be raised to immortality and incorruption in a heavenly realm.
In verses 20-23 Paul states....
"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming"
So do you see what I see? There is an "order" to the resurrection of the dead. Jesus Christ was the very "first" human to be raised to spirit life in heaven. Now notice when the resurrection for Christ's disciples takes place.....NOT until his "coming".
You do not believe that he has come quite yet, do you?
Deeje said:
How did God communicate with his earthly servants? If it wasn't in dreams and visions, it was sending his angels in human form to instruct them directly. e.g. the angels who physically escorted Lot and his family out of Sodom were in materialized form. They ate and drank meals prepared for them by both Abraham and Lot. Never did God's people communicate with spirits. They were to communicate directly with God through the only means that he prescribed....a mediator, Jesus Christ.
Are you citing texts that prop up what you have been taught while ignoring those which contradict your views? Angels are spirits.
Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
This is quoted later in Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Who is arguing that angels are not spirits?
If you read what I wrote, you can see that the angels never appeared as "spirits" but in a materialized form. They did not communicate with humans unless it was in a dream, or a vision, or in human form.....they did not have wings in most instances, so that the humans they visited did not really know that they were angels at first. Its not as if they needed physical wings, but to convey flight to those who had never experienced it in anything but a winged creature, it was necessary back then.
Must it be a parable because you say so? You're right Jews don't put much stock in "eternal torment in a fiery hell."
Chapters 13-16 were all parables.....so it isn't just my say-so.
The ancient Jews had NO belief in life after death, let alone inventing places for the dead to go.....that was Christendom's idea, borrowed from pagan religions.....Plato mostly. The apostate Jews adopted that Hellenic belief as well, but it is not in their scriptures.
They do however believe that the souls of good people go join other righteous souls in Paradise, Gan Eden, or the Bosom of Abraham; and they further believe that some souls benefit from the corrective fires of Gehinnom -- or hell. By no means is either state necessarily eternal.
To a first century Jew, "Gehenna" was the city's garbage dump where the corpses of executed criminals were cast because they were not considered worthy of a decent burial. Have you not noticed in Jewish cemeteries the elaborate tombs that house their dead?
For a Jew not to have a burial tomb meant that the person would not be remembered in the resurrection. It was never a place of correction. The grave (sheol) is where everyone went, regardless of their station in life. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
Jesus said he would raise the dead from their tombs, both "the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29) In order to be called from their graves, the people would still have to be in them...."sleeping".
Your take on it seems even sillier to me. I don't recall the hypocritical Pharisees asking for a drop of spiritual refreshment from Jesus. Who were their brothers they were concerned about? How does Lazarus fit into this interpretation? Were the Pharisees hoping Jesus would send them another messenger to refresh them?
The rich man requests “father Abraham” to send Lazarus “to the house of my father, for I have five brothers.” The rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another "father", whom Jesus identified as Satan the Devil. (John 8:44)
The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God’s judgment messages so as not to put his “five brothers,” his religious allies, in “this place of torment.”
“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” So, if the “five brothers” would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples.
But the rich man objects: “‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”
God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such people. They must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor. (Luke 16:16, 22-31; )
You can take it up with the Jews who do believe Paradise and Gehinnom are that close to each other. The gulf? Perhaps impassable space would convey the concept better. The typical Jew then would have recognized exactly what he meant; and I daresay many Jews today would too. And the manner of how justice is meted out is also a typical Jewish idea.
Please do not confuse later Jewish ideas with the writings of the ancient Hebrews to whom the scriptures were written There is a reason why Christ said his Father had abandoned that apostate system. (Matthew 23:37-39) If they had God's word, why did they reject Jesus and expect someone who fulfilled the Messianic criteria more than he did?
Every soul has committed both good deeds and bad ones. God's Justice requires every good deed be rewarded and every bad one also taken care of. If you were mostly evil in this life, odds are you had some good things happen to you and if those are enough of a reward, the soul doesn't need any rewards after death. So it will go to Gehinnom for purification of the bad urges and to correct for the bad deeds. On the other hand, a person who has mostly good deeds but has led a mostly miserable life has no need for correction in Gehinnom. He can go to Paradise and receive rewards.
You do not seem ready to be here discussing the Scriptures. "You err, not knowing them."
Please show us where in the Hebrew scriptures I would find any of what you just said.....? Chapter and verse would be appreciated.
