Can the universe create itself when it does‘t exist?

[paarsurrey]

Because God made no claim.
Lots of people about making claims for God but no God. Just others like you and me. Failable and prone to mistakes.

Some person decided to create a story about creation to tell for entertainment late at night around the campfire. Someone else decided the story should be included in the Torah. Where is God in all of this? Did God take pen in hand to make this claim?

You choose to believe the story of some unknown human author is true. There is nothing other than your belief to support this truth.

"You choose to believe the story"

Sorry, I don't believe in the stories to be real. We are just exploring the realities in this thread, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Secret Chief]

So let's accept that any accounts of a beginning to the universe are just fiction.

"speculative" seems a liitle more appropriate, rather than fiction. Just my two pedantic pence.

 

[Nakosis]

I understand that truthful Quran was authored by G-d, as claimed by Him in so many a verse and Muhammad never claimed it even once. Right, please?
Please don't be angry. Right, please?

Regards

So then there is no difference between my story and the Quran other than your belief right?

I'm not angry, I enjoy these discussions. To create a topic in which so many people choose to participate in is an honorable thing.

 

[Nakosis]

"You choose to believe the story"

Sorry, I don't believe in the stories to be real. We are just exploring the realities in this thread, please. Right, please?

Regards

So you don't believe the stories in the Quran to be real?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Can the universe create itself when it does‘t exist?

I understand it cannot. Right, please?

Regards
___________
With thanks to friend @PruePhillip post #244

Is the Universe -

1. Space or
2. Space + time?

If it is the former, then you are admitting that time always existed and was never created. This is an inconsistency in your logic as you are unwilling to accept the same principle for space.

If it the latter, then there is no such thing as creation or beginning as this is predicated on the existence of time, thus creating an inconsistency.

In short, your ideas of a 'created universe' fail the test of simple logic.

 

[Secret Chief]

I understand from the clues in the truthful religious knowledge:

[21:31]اَوَ لَمۡ یَرَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡۤا اَنَّ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضَ کَانَتَا رَتۡقًا فَفَتَقۡنٰہُمَا ؕ وَ جَعَلۡنَا مِنَ الۡمَآءِ کُلَّ شَیۡءٍ حَیٍّ ؕ اَفَلَا یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ ﴿۳۱﴾
Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass, then We opened them out? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 21: Al-Anbiya'
G-d claims it. Right, please?

Regards

Right for you clearly. I prefer the enquiries of science to suggest the possibilities and mechanisms.

 

[paarsurrey]

If you mean can a compact singularity begin to expand into the universe we know today on its own via a natural process, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that that it could not.

Sorry, I understand that it was so dense outside that it could not inflate. It happened, I understand, when G-d commanded it to happen so the "nothingness" happened and "something-ness" started getting inflated. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Nakosis]

"speculative" seems a liitle more appropriate, rather than fiction. Just my two pedantic pence.

I think fiction is more appropriate because really, what facts do we have about the beginning of the universe to speculate on?

 

[George-ananda]

How is this not magic?

i don’t doubt magic-like aspects to reality.

 

[paarsurrey]

And where did G-d come from? What created the creator? Why assume that a deity exists to cause the universe when we know the universe exists?

We understand from the truthful religion that one of G-d's attributes is that He is Eternal - He always existed and will exist. So G-d was already there. He could do anything, nothing could disobey His commandments. The clues to this all we understand from the truthful religious knowledge provided by G-d. He has shared it with the human beings by His Word to his truthful Messengers. There is no compulsion to believe it. And there is no harm to those who opt to believe it and understand it, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Polymath257]

We understand from the truthful religion that one of G-d's attributes is that He is Eternal - He always existed and will exist.

Which truthful religion is that? Why do you think there is a truthful religion?

So G-d was already there. He could do anything, nothing could disobey His commandments. The clues to this all we understand from the truthful religious knowledge provided by G-d. He has shared it with the human beings by His Word to his truthful Messengers. There is no compulsion to believe it. And there is no harm to those who opt to believe it and understand it, please. Right, please?

Regards

No, not right. At least, I don't believe it to be the case. You are assuming some religion to be truthful. I make no such assumption.

 

[Polymath257]

Sorry, I understand that it was so dense outside that it could not inflate. It happened, I understand, when G-d commanded it to happen so the "nothingness" happened and "something-ness" started getting inflated. Right, please?
Regards

Not sure where you got that from. Certainly not from the scientific theory. In fact, in the standard BB model, there *is* nothing outside of the universe: the universe is literally all that exists. So there was no 'dense' outside of it.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well I can't speak for other atheists but I for one assume the universe has always existed in one form or another.

That's really no crazier than assuming God has always existed is it?

We are here, we exist right?
What is crazier is assuming there was a time when nothing existed. I mean how can something come from nothing?
If you stop assuming there was a time when nothing existed then you don't have to worry about something coming from nothing.

"Well I can't speak for other atheists but I for one assume the universe has always existed in one form or another."

The assumptions, I understand, are of little value. "Universe always existed" is neither from the truthful religious knowledge nor from the knowledge of science that does not claim and could not claim of perfection. Right, please?

Regards

 

[QuestioningMind]

Sorry, I understand that it was so dense outside that it could not inflate. It happened, I understand, when G-d commanded it to happen so the "nothingness" happened and "something-ness" started getting inflated. Right, please?

Regards

Actually no, since a compact singularity is not 'nothingness'. It went from being a compact singularity to the expanding universe we're familiar with today. As for some god being 'commanding' it to happen, there is absolutely zero evidence to support that notion, since it could just as easily have been the result of a natural process we are not yet aware of.

 

[paarsurrey]

And god done exactly the same thing with magic is possible in your book. Right, please?

Sorry, one believes in magic, I don't. And magic is not the topic of this thread. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

How is this not magic?

Please define the natural word "magic", one's own understanding not from a lexicon, please.

Regards

 

[Polymath257]

"Well I can't speak for other atheists but I for one assume the universe has always existed in one form or another."

The assumptions, I understand, are of little value. "Universe always existed" is neither from the truthful religious knowledge nor from the knowledge of science that does not claim and could not claim of perfection. Right, please?

Regards

it is certainly one of the options. A lot depends on the correct description of quantum gravity. Under certain possibilities, time will be eternal. If that is the case, so will the universe (in some sense).

And what 'truthful religious knowledge' do you think there is?

 

[Nakosis]

"Well I can't speak for other atheists but I for one assume the universe has always existed in one form or another."

The assumptions, I understand, are of little value. "Universe always existed" is neither from the truthful religious knowledge nor from the knowledge of science that does not claim and could not claim of perfection. Right, please?

Regards

So what religious knowledge do you have?

 

[Polymath257]

i don’t doubt magic-like aspects to reality.

What do you mean by the term 'magic'? What I see is physical laws. And I see no violations in those laws.

 

[paarsurrey]

Personally, I don't assume nothingness.
The "big bang" is really where they start defining what is/was as the universe. Doesn't really claim there was nothing before it or that the universe came from nothing. I think I read somewhere they can sequence back to some fraction of a second after the "big bang" the initial expansion of the universe. What existed or didn't exist prior to that they can't say.

What Existed Before the Big Bang?

"What existed or didn't exist prior to that they can't say."

May be they get a clue, G-d willing. Right, please?

Regards