Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Reverend Rick]

A program of what magnitude? What specific program has Matt or I introduced or endorsed?

Correct me if I am wrong, you both want a single payer system right?

 

[Smoke]

Correct me if I am wrong, you both want a single payer system right?

Yep. Please explain your calculations of the cost of such a system, and also how such a system is the same as rape and murder.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yep. Please explain your calculations of the cost of such a system, and also how such a system is the same as rape and murder.

Smoke, I'm going to have to put you to task here, where did I use the words "rape" and "murder"?

I believe you have produced a straw man here. :yes:

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, I'm going to have to put you to task here, where did I use the words "rape" and "murder"?

I believe you have produced a straw man here. :yes:

You did say "slaughter," not "murder."

We truly live in different worlds mball. You think that the rich should pay for everything all the while you are attempting to slaughter and rape the rich man.

 

[Magic Man]

So in other words, you think he is drinking the wrong flavor of kool-aid and have another flavor in mind for him?

No. In other words, in one way he's been successful at escaping misinformation and indoctrination, therefore it would seem very likely to me that he'd be able to do that in other areas. Basically, I'd think since he can obviously think for himself on a big issue like religion, he'd be able to do the same on other big issues, like politics.

 

[Magic Man]

Is it a valid argument that we just cannot afford to pay for a program of this magnitude with the current state of the economy?

Nope.

Would it be a valid argument that many employers are unsure of what the cost to them would be to add additional employees and is a contributing factor to the unemployment rate?

Nope.

Whether it is valid or perceived, it still affects the economy.

Yes, saving a lot of money on something as big as healthcare affects the economy.

We need to fix the economy first right?

Why separate them? We need to fic both things, and fixing the healthcare situation can help with the economy.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why separate them? We need to fic both things, and fixing the healthcare situation can help with the economy.

 

[Magic Man]

Yeah, that's about the response I'd expect from you. Usually you use more words to say the same thing, but this is about the extent of the thought I get from you.

Tell me, though, Rick, how does spending hundreds of millions of dollars less on a necessity not help fix the economy? I thought that would be Economics 101.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yeah, that's about the response I'd expect from you. Usually you use more words to say the same thing, but this is about the extent of the thought I get from you.

Tell me, though, Rick, how does spending hundreds of millions of dollars less on a necessity not help fix the economy? I thought that would be Economics 101.

Quit acting like a condescending twit mball, you are much better than that. You know I have an MBA.

Here is the thing. The topic of the thread is, "Can the US afford socialized medicine?".

Seeing how we are trillions of dollars in debt, the answer is no.

I may need a new car. They are having a great end of year sale and prices are reduced. That still does not mean I CAN AFFORD IT !

You can say I need the car.

You could even call it a necessity. :yes:

The sale could even save me money, but that does not mean I could afford it.

Now is health care really a necessity?

Yes, it can be a life or death necessity some times. Say you need a heart transplant and you are 95 years old. In the next room is a 16 year old girl who needs a transplant as well. There is only one donor heart available. You do the math.

Where on earth did you come to the deluded idea that you are entitled to be provided for from cradle to grave?

Has personal responsibility become extinct?

Should the government provide every citizen with health care, day care, a home, food, a car and anything else that they deem a necessity?

I will tell you what is a necessity, to pay attention in class, learn something and mature into a person who can provide for themselves.

 

[Smoke]

I may need a new car. They are having a great end of year sale and prices are reduced. That still does not mean I CAN AFFORD IT !

You can say I need the car.

You could even call it a necessity. :yes:

The sale could even save me money, but that does not mean I could afford it.

That's not quite the situation, though. The situation is more like this: Your car payments on a new car will be $300 a month. You say you can't possibly afford that, so you continue to lease an old jalopy for $600 a month. That's exactly the course of action you're recommending in the name of fiscal responsibility.

Now, I don't know if you're being disingenuous or if you're sincerely convinced by the crap on Republican talk radio, but it doesn't really matter. It's a stupid argument. Really. It's an incredibly stupid argument. So the question is, have you failed to give this any thought at all, or have you actually thought it out? Have you just decided that it may be a stupid argument, but if you keep saying it over and over again, maybe people will start to believe it?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

No. In other words, in one way he's been successful at escaping misinformation and indoctrination, therefore it would seem very likely to me that he'd be able to do that in other areas. Basically, I'd think since he can obviously think for himself on a big issue like religion, he'd be able to do the same on other big issues, like politics.

I do think for myself. That is why I am not going along with your ideas. I do not like them. By the way, my favorite kool-aid flavor is orange. It is much easier on the stomach than many of the others.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's not quite the situation, though. The situation is more like this: Your car payments on a new car will be $300 a month. You say you can't possibly afford that, so you continue to lease an old jalopy for $600 a month. That's exactly the course of action you're recommending in the name of fiscal responsibility.

Now, I don't know if you're being disingenuous or if you're sincerely convinced by the crap on Republican talk radio, but it doesn't really matter. It's a stupid argument. Really. It's an incredibly stupid argument. So the question is, have you failed to give this any thought at all, or have you actually thought it out? Have you just decided that it may be a stupid argument, but if you keep saying it over and over again, maybe people will start to believe it?

OK Smoke, lets give the keys to the kingdom away and give everyone anything they deem a necessity. When our country becomes bankrupt, we will be reduced to a third world country status.

Lets say I have a 600 dollar clunker that is paid off. If I trade it in on the 300 a month car and miss a payment or two, I will be walking. To be fair, when the clunker dies, I will be walking too. Just as when we as a country give it all away, it will be gone and no one will have health care.

WE CAN'T KEEP SPENDING MONEY WE JUST DON'T HAVE NO MATTER HOW NOBEL THE CAUSE IS.

Yes people have a genuine need. Let me ask you this, why not give the whole world health care? Their need is no different than ours.

 

[Smoke]

Lets say I have a 600 dollar clunker that is paid off. If I trade it in on the 300 a month car and miss a payment or two, I will be walking. To be fair, when the clunker dies, I will be walking too. Just as when we as a country give it all away, it will be gone and no one will have health care.

Is your clunker paid off, Rick? Free healthcare from here on out, at no expense? Hell, no, your clunker's not paid off, and you're paying a whole lot more for it than it's worth.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Yes people have a genuine need. Let me ask you this, why not give the whole world health care? Their need is no different than ours.

I have no doubt we will before they figure out how to straighten out our own healthcare system.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I have no doubt we will before they figure out how to straighten out our own healthcare system.

Nature will take it's course. All these over weight people who sit on their butts all day do not eat right or take care of themselves.

They will waddle into the doctors office and he will tell them to lose weight or quit smoking. Three months later it will be the same old same old again in the doctors office. We are suppose to save money when people get better. It's not going to happen.

One thing for certain, we all are going to die. Does it really matter how long we live or what we do with our time here on earth? Life is short, enjoy it!

 

[Magic Man]

Quit acting like a condescending twit mball, you are much better than that. You know I have an MBA.

I know you've said that, but I also know that you're failing to grasp very simple economic concepts here. And maybe you could stop the ad hominems, huh? I mean, you are staff now, so it might be good not to call people names. I'd hate to have to report a staff member.

Here is the thing. The topic of the thread is, "Can the US afford socialized medicine?".

Seeing how we are trillions of dollars in debt, the answer is no.

See, this is what I mean. It's a very simple concept. We are trillions of dollars in debt. So, to help with that, why don't we pay $1 trillion for something rather than $2 trillion? By my calculations, that would save us $1 trillion. That would seem to make the answer "yes".

I may need a new car. They are having a great end of year sale and prices are reduced. That still does not mean I CAN AFFORD IT !

You can say I need the car.

You could even call it a necessity. :yes:

The sale could even save me money, but that does not mean I could afford it.

Rick, it's usually customary to actually listen to what others say in a debate/discussion. If you did that, you'd have realized a long time ago how horrible this analogy is. I'll explain it again, though, in hopes that you miraculously listen for once.

We're not buying anything new. We're suggesting going a route that pays less money than we're currently paying for a better product. To use your car analogy, we're trading in our current old piece of crap car for a nice, new car and our monthly payments are going from $700 to $350. We're not adding any expenses; we're taking expenses away.

Did that get through this time?

Now is health care really a necessity?

Yes, it can be a life or death necessity some times. Say you need a heart transplant and you are 95 years old. In the next room is a 16 year old girl who needs a transplant as well. There is only one donor heart available. You do the math.

I'm sorry, is there a point in this pathetic strawman? What does this even have to do with universal healthcare?

Where on earth did you come to the deluded idea that you are entitled to be provided for from cradle to grave?

Where on Earth did you come to the deluded idea that I ever said or thought that?

Has personal responsibility become extinct?

Nope. Maybe if you pay attention, you'd understand what was being said so that you wouldn't have to go off on tangents like this that are both irrelevant and false.

Should the government provide every citizen with health care, day care, a home, food, a car and anything else that they deem a necessity?

Nope. They should provide every citizen with healthcare, food, shelter, clothing and protection. However, they're not providing it for free, as you seem to want to characterize it.

I will tell you what is a necessity, to pay attention in class, learn something and mature into a person who can provide for themselves.

You know what's just as important as that? Not growing up in the wrong neighborhood, not being the wrong race, knowing the right people and having some good luck.

Please, Rick, once and for all, stop this false dichotomy. There are rich people (Paris Hilton) who don't work hard, didn't do well in school and probably couldn't provide for themselves, if they had to. There are also poor people who work very hard, did as well as they could in school and can provide for themselves the best that society will allow, but still can't afford the skyrocketing costs of healthcare. So, please stop your willful ignorance and strawmen and stick to the facts.

 

[Magic Man]

That's not quite the situation, though. The situation is more like this: Your car payments on a new car will be $300 a month. You say you can't possibly afford that, so you continue to lease an old jalopy for $600 a month. That's exactly the course of action you're recommending in the name of fiscal responsibility.

Now, I don't know if you're being disingenuous or if you're sincerely convinced by the crap on Republican talk radio, but it doesn't really matter. It's a stupid argument. Really. It's an incredibly stupid argument. So the question is, have you failed to give this any thought at all, or have you actually thought it out? Have you just decided that it may be a stupid argument, but if you keep saying it over and over again, maybe people will start to believe it?

It's been explained to him once already. It seems to be a case of the creationist mindset: just put your fingers in your ears, stop listening, and spout any nonsense that sounds good to you, whether or not it makes real sense.

Also, you know Rick. His motto is "Say it over and over in the hopes that people will start to believe it".

 

[Magic Man]

I do think for myself. That is why I am not going along with your ideas. I do not like them.

Thinking for yourself would require looking at the facts and making a decision, not believing whatever tripe their selling on Rush Limbaugh.

You're right about one thing: you don't go along with my ideas because you don't like them. The problem is you have no good reason not to like them.

 

[Magic Man]

OK Smoke, lets give the keys to the kingdom away and give everyone anything they deem a necessity. When our country becomes bankrupt, we will be reduced to a third world country status.

Yeah! That's the way to do it, Rick! Let's exaggerate everything and go with the slippery slope argument! That'll work...or not.

Lets say I have a 600 dollar clunker that is paid off. If I trade it in on the 300 a month car and miss a payment or two, I will be walking. To be fair, when the clunker dies, I will be walking too. Just as when we as a country give it all away, it will be gone and no one will have health care.

An MBA you say? The $600-a-month is not paid off, hence why you're still paying $600 per month. Think of it like this: You have no car. Someone offers you two options, and you have to take one. You can have a 7-year-old Honda Accord with 100,000 miles for $600/month for 5 years, or you can have a 1-year-old Honda Accord with 10,000 miles for $300/month for 5 years. Neither one has had any accidents or any major problems. Which do you choose?

Are we getting through that skull yet?

WE CAN'T KEEP SPENDING MONEY WE JUST DON'T HAVE NO MATTER HOW NOBLE THE CAUSE IS.

YOU'RE RIGHT. THAT'S WHY NO ONE'S ADVOCATING SPENDING MONEY WE DON'T HAVE. WE'RE ADVOCATING SPENDING LESS MONEY THAN WE ALREADY DO.

Yes people have a genuine need. Let me ask you this, why not give the whole world health care? Their need is no different than ours.

Is the whole world paying taxes to us?

 

[Magic Man]

Nature will take it's course. All these over weight people who sit on their butts all day do not eat right or take care of themselves.

They will waddle into the doctors office and he will tell them to lose weight or quit smoking. Three months later it will be the same old same old again in the doctors office. We are suppose to save money when people get better. It's not going to happen.

One thing for certain, we all are going to die. Does it really matter how long we live or what we do with our time here on earth? Life is short, enjoy it!

I love how people like you bring this kind of thing up without realizing that the other countries in the table in the OP also have overweight people and smokers. Do you think they're suddenly paradises where no one has health problems like that?