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Can the US afford socialized medicine?

Rio Sabinas

Old Geezer
mball1297, please help slay my ignorance on this subject.

What part of the proposed Health Care Bill or any Socialized Medical Plan will
deter those who would try to take advantage of it? Has it become "Politicaly
Incorrect" to enforce our Laws against Fraud?

I'm not being faceitious, I just don't understand.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
That's because those countries have better wealth distribution. They don't have 30% of the population making $25,000 or less, and they don't have 10% of the population controlling over 70% of the wealth. Not that it matters. Either way, it gets paid for.
Of course it does not matter to you if you are ignorant when it comes to making money.
You keep forgetting the part where it saves everyone money.
Everyone? How can it save someone money when they pay nothing for health care already?

How can it save the top 10% money when they have to buy everyone in this country health care mball?
That's your opinion, and it's a sorely misinformed one. As I said, Rick don't need no stinking facts!
Your facts are fictitious
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
People do not want to pay for others folks health care even if it is cheaper.

Bottom line Rev, I think you've nailed it...

A healthy, wealthy person with minimal medical needs will pay more if he's part of a system which also services the needs of poor people with more significant medical needs.

Arguably greedy, selfish and down right immoral to object to universal heath care, but true that it will cost some a little more than it would if they were part of a smaller group of healthcare recipients.

IMO it says a lot about a society when it's citizens are not willing to pool their resources to take care of it's less fortunate members.
 

Amill

Apikoros
Yea, and why should we pay for other people's law enforcement and fire protection? Police have never been called to my house and I've never had a fire, why the hell am I paying for other people's coverage? This stinkin socialist country!
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Yea, and why should we pay for other people's law enforcement and fire protection? Police have never been called to my house and I've never had a fire, why the hell am I paying for other people's coverage? This stinkin socialist country!

I think if the fire or police come to your home, they should send you a bill. The money could pay back the tax payer.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Bottom line Rev, I think you've nailed it...



IMO it says a lot about a society when it's citizens are not willing to pool their resources to take care of it's less fortunate members.

These people would be dead if they where born 200 years ago. The pioneer spirit is what made our country great. Hard work and sacrifice, not sit on your butt and collect a check.

No work, no eat!
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
For one thing, we are bigger.

And? What difference do you think that makes?

Nope! People do not want to pay for others folks health care even if it is cheaper. See that is it in a nut shell. It may be cheaper per capita, but some folks would have to PAY EVEN MORE than they do now FOR LESS!

Nope! No one would have to pay more. We have 300 million people and we're paying about $6,700 per person. Cut it down to $4,000 per person, and we're spending less while covering more people. It's simple math, and no one has to pay more.

Exactly! It does not save EVERYONE money now does it?

Yes, it does.

The straw man is that EVERYONE will get better health care FOR LESS. You keep leaving out the part where some Americans will pay A GREAT DEAL MORE for an inferior health care plan.

No, I'm not leaving that out because that's not true. No one would have to pay more, and the service would be the same.

You ignore the facts. The facts are you are not getting health care reform :no:

What does that have to do with anything? It's very likely we won't get healthcare reform, but that has no bearing on whether or not we should have healthcare reform. The facts support the idea that we should get healthcare reform, but don't let those little things get in your way.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
mball1297, please help slay my ignorance on this subject.

What part of the proposed Health Care Bill or any Socialized Medical Plan will
deter those who would try to take advantage of it? Has it become "Politicaly
Incorrect" to enforce our Laws against Fraud?

I'm not being faceitious, I just don't understand.

Where did I say it would do that?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Of course it does not matter to you if you are ignorant when it comes to making money. Everyone? How can it save someone money when they pay nothing for health care already?

How can it save the top 10% money when they have to buy everyone in this country health care mball?
Your facts are fictitious

We have about 270 million people paying $2.01 trillion for healthcare right now. If we successfully implemented a system like all of the other industrialized countries, we could have 270 million people paying $1.2 trillion. That's a difference of $800 billion. No one would have to pay more; everyone would pay less, even those making $5 million/year.

For someone who's so worried about his money, you sure don't do math very well.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I think if the fire or police come to your home, they should send you a bill. The money could pay back the tax payer.

That's good. You just lost your house and all of your possessions other than your car in a fire? Here's a bill for another $2,000. Have a good day!
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
These people would be dead if they where born 200 years ago. The pioneer spirit is what made our country great. Hard work and sacrifice, not sit on your butt and collect a check.

No work, no eat!

To say nothing of the total greed and selfishness of these statements, you miss (as always) the people who do work hard and sacrifice still die like they did 200 years ago.

I think I've figured it out, Rick. You should go live in a third-world country, maybe somewhere in Africa. Your opinions aren't really fit for civilized society; they work much better in a primitive society that doesn't value life or other people as much.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
These people would be dead if they where born 200 years ago.
Everyone born 200 years ago is now dead. There must've been something in the water...

Reverend Rick said:
The pioneer spirit is what made our country great. Hard work and sacrifice, not sit on your butt and collect a check.
Slaves certainly make hard workers.

Reverend Rick said:
No work, no eat!
No cash, no medicine?
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
Outside of discussing which model best provides quality care to the most people for the least amount of money, I don't see why we're even debating whether or not the United States (or at least, the states which compromise it) should issue universal health care. With the exception of some fringe libertarians like Stossel and Rand, most Americans have kept up to date with modern philosophy about socializing some consequences of a competitive society. Most of us would think it barbaric, for example, if a child starved without guarantee of food, or an employer's obvious negligence maimed an employee without legal dispute and counsel. Government recognition and enforcement of property by its nature excludes others from usage rights; having "stuff" or "space" that is your own is a necessary component to any society. We must also recognize that to grant legal protection around property, knowing that it excludes the potential for others to use that property (even if it is not man-made like resources), should be followed up with at the very least some protection.

Of course no one likes the idea of free riders, but I have to question the ethical simplicity behind singlehandedly dismissing universal health care because some people abuse their neighbors' fortune. Do you same people not donate to charities because some of it may/does end up in the hands of corporate executives?

I'm not saying we should just ignore the issue of free riding, but there are ways to discourage it and still provide universal coverage, and I also think we have to realize "Free riding" is not a simple issue of black and white. I hate using extreme examples to quantify my thesis, but if someone suffers from a diagnosable mental illness where self-virtue is exaggerated beyond norms, one can't simply say that the government should not provide for them because they're free riding. More importantly, we run into the problem of dismissing candidates with overly simplistic qualifications for membership, such as some proposed "employment history."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
These people would be dead if they where born 200 years ago. The pioneer spirit is what made our country great. Hard work and sacrifice, not sit on your butt and collect a check.

No work, no eat!
The "pioneer spirit" wouldn't help that butt of yours if you broke your leg working hard and sacrificing.
 

Rio Sabinas

Old Geezer
mball1297, reference post #188
"Where did I say it would do that?"

You did not. Nor am I being confrontational. I merely ask 2 questions
to get another opinion on a subject I don't understand very well.
Any reply will be appreciated.
Rio
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I think I've figured it out, Rick. You should go live in a third-world country, maybe somewhere in Africa. Your opinions aren't really fit for civilized society; they work much better in a primitive society that doesn't value life or other people as much.

I guess we could conclude that you sir, should move to an European country and quit trying to turn the good ol U.S. of A. into a socialised country.

The health care bill is dead.

Your party failed miserably to lead. :thud: Perhaps they too should move to a third world country. ;)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My 2 Canadian cents is that as long as health care is run as a "for profit" business, the American public will be short changed. I have no problem with doctors and all medical staff making a good living, but when hospitals are looking for ways to increase profits, you simply cannot avoid conflicts of interest. In theory, the medical profession is here to help us, not fleece us of everything we own.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
I guess we could conclude that you sir, should move to an European country and quit trying to turn the good ol U.S. of A. into a socialised country.
Maybe he can't afford to get out of here, or maybe they won't take new immigrants beyond a certain age or from certain places. I know that if I was running a decent country, I wouldn't let an American in unless I had a way to be sure he was a decent person.
Perhaps they too should move to a third world country.
Are you seriously implying that European countries are third world? They have a better standard of living than we do...
 

Smoke

Done here.
My 2 Canadian cents is that as long as health care is run as a "for profit" business, the American public will be short changed. I have no problem with doctors and all medical staff making a good living, but when hospitals are looking for ways to increase profits, you simply cannot avoid conflicts of interest. In theory, the medical profession is here to help us, not fleece us of everything we own.
Hospital Corporation of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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