Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[dust1n]

Socialism is stealing? Right...

Yeah, kinda a political movement based on the very basic concepts of Robin Hood. Now if the movement/he would overthrow the king and queen, they wouldn't have to worry about the sheriff exploiting the royal absence.

 

[Autodidact]

Lets remember that the poor get medicaid and EVERYONE can go to the hospital.

Rick: This statement is false. You need to stop making it. It is not true. Would you like me to go to all the trouble of googling up the facts so you can see how false it is?

 

[Autodidact]

So Smoke, do you really think our doctors and nurses are inefficient and over paid?

No, Rick, the problem is NOT the doctors and nurses, it's the HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY. Nice dodge.

 

[Magic Man]

Rick: This statement is false. You need to stop making it. It is not true. Would you like me to go to all the trouble of googling up the facts so you can see how false it is?

Facts? Rick don't need no stinking facts!

 

[Darkness]

Facts? Rick don't need no stinking facts!

Get your stinking paws off of me, you damn dirty ape!

 

[Reverend Rick]

Facts? Rick don't need no stinking facts!

Do you believe by personalizing this that elevates your position? Liberal are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that this country does not want a national health care plan.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/summing_up_the_new_health_care.php

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The vehicles in other countries do not meet US Safety standards. That is why those low grade vehicles cannot be imported to the US without costly modification. Ever wonder why there are so many Mercedes Benz vehicles in other countries? They are not up to par.

Fun fact: Canadian vehicle standards are just as stringent as American ones, and in a few ways, they're more stringent than those in the US. Over the years, there have been a number of nice little cars that were available in the US but not Canada right away because it took the engineers a few years to figure out how to get their bumpers to pass the Canadian requirements.

Canadian health care compares favourably with American care as well. We have different rating systems here, but all the measurements I've seen for quality of care come in right around the American measurements.

 

[Magic Man]

Do you believe by personalizing this that elevates your position?

What?

Liberal are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that this country does not want a national health care plan.

Pollster.com: Summing Up The New Health Care Polls (and a New Chart)

Well, we certainly have a hard time understanding why anyone would choose not to go with the option that is proven to be cheaper and better than the current one.

 

[Smoke]

Do you believe by personalizing this that elevates your position? Liberal are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that this country does not want a national health care plan.

Possibly not, now that your party has spent so much time and effort convincing people that universal healthcare is a plot to kill their grandmas. But see below.

Pollster.com: Summing Up The New Health Care Polls (and a New Chart)

Note that most of these polls ask people what they think of "Obama's" health care plan, despite the fact that he never had one. The pollsters assume respondents are ignorant, which may be a safe assumption, but given the way the questions are phrased, I would have answered "oppose or bad idea" myself. The polls are basically asking what respondents think of how the Democrats have handled their approach to healthcare reform. I don't think much of it.

It's interesting that when the pollsters asked people about the specifics of the plans the Democrats were trying to get through, a majority favored those specifics.

A plurality don't trust Congress or the Democrats, yet a majority do want healthcare reform. Sooner or later, the Republicans and the Blue Dogs are going to have to come to terms with that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Well, we certainly have a hard time understanding why anyone would choose not to go with the option that is proven to be cheaper and better than the current one.

Proven in other countries mball. One shoe fits all right?

Other countries have secure borders and do not hand visa's out like candy.
Other countries do not have half of their citizens paying zero in income taxes.
Other countries have citizens with a better education and a thing called gainful employment.

In other words, other countries are in it all together. They have a shared sacrifice for the greater good.

Here in America, too many folks are not carrying the water. They vote to let the other guy pay for something. Socialized medicine in this country would be something different all together. It would not be shared sacrifice for the greater good.

It would be health care distribution from the worthy to the not so worthy.

People in America want something for nothing, not shared sacrifice like other countries that have sucessful health care programs.

They don't abuse their program because it would cost THEM more money.

Not so in the good ol U.S.A.

People rip off the system because they have not paid a dime into it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Other countries have secure borders and do not hand visa's out like candy.

Here in the land of socialized medicine, I still have to present my insurance card whenever I go to the doctor or the hospital... it's just that my insurance card is issued by the government instead of an insurance company. An uninsured foreigner has to pay for their care the same way an uninsured foreigner would have to pay for their care in the US.

Public health care doesn't necessarily mean you open up health care facilities to anyone who comes knocking.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Here in the land of socialized medicine, I still have to present my insurance card whenever I go to the doctor or the hospital... it's just that my insurance card is issued by the government instead of an insurance company. An uninsured foreigner has to pay for their care the same way an uninsured foreigner would have to pay for their care in the US.

Public health care doesn't necessarily mean you open up health care facilities to anyone who comes knocking.

Here is the thing, everyone assumes that the United States Government could run a health care system like other countries do with the same results. I believe they give our government a little too much credit.

Look at all the fraud and abuse with medicare.
Look at the postal service.
The VA does not impress me.

I believe our government has grown way too big as it is.

I want less government, not more.

 

[Magic Man]

Proven in other countries mball. One shoe fits all right?

Are you really suggesting we're that different from 100 other countries that use some form of it?

Other countries have secure borders and do not hand visa's out like candy.

You should really check into that, especially France.

Other countries do not have half of their citizens paying zero in income taxes.

That's because those countries have better wealth distribution. They don't have 30% of the population making $25,000 or less, and they don't have 10% of the population controlling over 70% of the wealth. Not that it matters. Either way, it gets paid for.

Other countries have citizens with a better education and a thing called gainful employment.

We don't have citizens with gainful employment? And what does a better education have to do with healthcare?

In other words, other countries are in it all together. They have a shared sacrifice for the greater good.

Huh? How would that not be the case with us?

Here in America, too many folks are not carrying the water. They vote to let the other guy pay for something. Socialized medicine in this country would be something different all together. It would not be shared sacrifice for the greater good.

You keep forgetting the part where it saves everyone money. Also, you're forgetting that the only reason 10% of the population would be paying for most of it is because that 10% holds most of the wealth in the country.

It would be health care distribution from the worthy to the not so worthy.

So, someone working 60 hours a week and supporting 2 kids by him/herself isn't worthy of healthcare? That's pretty heartless.

But I guess Paris Hilton's worthy, huh?

People in America want something for nothing, not shared sacrifice like other countries that have sucessful health care programs.

Nice strawman. I guarantee you those Americans who don't pay taxes would rather pay some taxes, considering that would mean they'd be making somewhat decent money. Most people would love to have this "shared sacrifice" you're talking about, since it would mean they wouldn't be making $25,000 while a few guys at the top make bonuses of $10 million.

They don't abuse their program because it would cost THEM more money.

Not so in the good ol U.S.A.

That's your opinion, and it's a sorely misinformed one. As I said, Rick don't need no stinking facts!

 

[Rio Sabinas]

Reverend Rick sez.... "People in America want something for nothing,"

I agree.
Example - I know several people who are drawing Full Social Security Disability
who are not anywhere near as "Disabled" as others who are still working.
Example - I know people on Welfare that could work but would run & hide
if offered a job.

Why would anyone wish to reward this type of behavior?
Don't get me wrong. I also know people who truly need help & are getting it.
I don't begrudge them my Tax Dollars at all.

I think that the majority of people that are against the Health Care Bill simply
don't really know all it contains. Why??... W-a-a-y to much partisan politics & finger
pointing from both sides of the isle.

 

[Magic Man]

Here in the land of socialized medicine, I still have to present my insurance card whenever I go to the doctor or the hospital... it's just that my insurance card is issued by the government instead of an insurance company. An uninsured foreigner has to pay for their care the same way an uninsured foreigner would have to pay for their care in the US.

Public health care doesn't necessarily mean you open up health care facilities to anyone who comes knocking.

And let's not forget the fact that an illegal alien can walk in and use a hospital as it is, and that costs everyone money. It's not like it's any different now.

 

[Magic Man]

Reverend Rick sez.... "People in America want something for nothing,"

I agree.
Example - I know several people who are drawing Full Social Security Disability
who are not anywhere near as "Disabled" as others who are still working.
Example - I know people on Welfare that could work but would run & hide
if offered a job.

And for every one of those people, there are 10 who are disabled or do try to make more money and work more.

Why would anyone wish to reward this type of behavior?
Don't get me wrong. I also know people who truly need help & are getting it.
I don't begrudge them my Tax Dollars at all.

You just answered your own question. No one wants to reward that behavior. What people want is to get those people you mention after your question the help they need. No matter what system is in place, there are going to be those people who take advantage of it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here is the thing, everyone assumes that the United States Government could run a health care system like other countries do with the same results. I believe they give our government a little too much credit.

Look at all the fraud and abuse with medicare.
Look at the postal service.
The VA does not impress me.

Well then: don't have the government run the health care system. Just because health insurance is public doesn't mean that health care providers have to be.

Here, hospitals are public institutions, but they're run at arms-length from the government. The Ministry of Health and Long-term Care (MOH) makes decisions about funding, but it's up to each individual hospital's board to figure out how to provide their services at the required standard of care while staying within their budget... however, this doesn't include the doctors; most doctors are effectively private entities who receive payment from the MOH on a fee-for-service basis like they would from a private insurer.

However, you wouldn't necessarily have to follow that model to have public health insurance. I suppose private, for-profit hospitals could be incorporated into a public model; from their perspective, the main thing that would change is the logo on the insurance cheques they receive.

I'm not really familiar with medicare fraud, so I can't speak to its specifics. What sort of fraud is it that you're worried about?

If it's a matter of people ineligible for medicare trying to claim benefits, then that would basically go away if everyone were eligible for government health insurance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Reverend Rick sez.... "People in America want something for nothing,"

I agree.
Example - I know several people who are drawing Full Social Security Disability
who are not anywhere near as "Disabled" as others who are still working.
Example - I know people on Welfare that could work but would run & hide
if offered a job.

Why would anyone wish to reward this type of behavior?
Don't get me wrong. I also know people who truly need help & are getting it.
I don't begrudge them my Tax Dollars at all.

I think a lot of this type of behaviour comes from simple economics: if you're eligible for Medicare or Medicaid, but only while you're on welfare or disability benefits, then it would cost you money (potentially a whole lot of money) to go back to work. Their rational self-interest tells them to continue to live off your tax dollars.

However, if you create a situation where people aren't put at this sort of disadvantage by getting off government aid, then I think you'll encourage the people you describe to get off it, and in the process, they'll start paying taxes themselves.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Are you really suggesting we're that different from 100 other countries that use some form of it?

For one thing, we are bigger.

That's because those countries have better wealth distribution. They don't have 30% of the population making $25,000 or less, and they don't have 10% of the population controlling over 70% of the wealth. Not that it matters. Either way, it gets paid for.

Nope! People do not want to pay for others folks health care even if it is cheaper. See that is it in a nut shell. It may be cheaper per capita, but some folks would have to PAY EVEN MORE than they do now FOR LESS!

You keep forgetting the part where it saves everyone money. Also, you're forgetting that the only reason 10% of the population would be paying for most of it is because that 10% holds most of the wealth in the country.

Exactly! It does not save EVERYONE money now does it?

Nice straw man.

The straw man is that EVERYONE will get better health care FOR LESS. You keep leaving out the part where some Americans will pay A GREAT DEAL MORE for an inferior health care plan.

That's your opinion, and it's a sorely misinformed one. As I said, Rick don't need no stinking facts!

You ignore the facts. The facts are you are not getting health care reform :no:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For one thing, we are bigger.

The population of the US is on the same order of magnitude as plenty of first-world countries with good, public health care systems... Japan, for instance.

Also, if you take the EU as one entity, then it's bigger than the US.