Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[Trailblazer]

However, if that religion is true then God has revealed some aspects of himself.
John 3:16 – For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

Which means he cares if people believe him.

No, that verse does not mean God 'cares' if people believe Him. It only means that God gave us Jesus so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

Which means he's not stupid and he would know trying to continue a religion:
1) by admitting he got the first one all wrong,

Revealing a new religion is not admitting God got the first one wrong. The Gospel message was never intended to suffice for all of time.
The Gospel message served a certain purpose. That purpose was served so is time to move on to God's Purpose for this new age.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

Aside from that, Christianity is not 'the first religion.'

somehow an infinite God failed to put the correct 4 Gospels to the council of Nicea and later councils and they picked the wrong Gospels out of the 40 or so. Except the followers made a creed, one of the most important was that God gave them the correct information.
Now, on some guys word, nope, he got it wrong. Don;t say "people mis-interpreted it" because God is infinite, he knows everything that will ever happen and he is capable of getting his Bible correct. HE went to earth and did plenty of other things so he also can make sure the most important thing was done.

Omnipotence does not imply responsibility. It is not God's responsibility to correct human mistakes.
God did not write the Bible, it was written by humans. If God wrote it. it would be correct, just as the Writings of Baha'u'llah are correct.

2)He would not mess up a revealed truth and that means right away Bahai is false.

God did not mess up the Bible, humans did that.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

In order for Bahai to be correct you have to make Yahweh an incapable deity who cannot get a book together. The church fathers were told, by God, they had it correct. If you get to claim revelations then so do church fathers.
So if it's true, Bahai is not. If it's all a myth, Bahai is wrong.

God could have gotten the book together but instead God chose to allow humans to put it together and humans are fallible so they made mistakes.

One big mistake atheists make is to say that an All-Powerful God could do x so that God would or should do x. That is patently illogical since power does not imply responsibility. God only does what God chooses to do, period.

It is because God is All-Powerful that God only does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah......except it was GOD WHO GAVE THE 10 COMMANDMENTS.

AND THE 613 LAWS IN THE PENTATEUCH

God gave those commandments and laws through Moses, and God gave them to humans.
God is not subject to following those commandments and laws since a) God is All-Good and b) God is not a human.

You are trying awful hard, so it seems that you do care.

Answering posts does not mean I care about what anyone believes. It only means I answer posts. My motives are my own.

You will never run out of things to say because you are repeating the same points over and over.

So do you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course they do. 84% of the world believes in religion. 1/3 are Christian and believe in miracles, exorcisms, magic powers and so on.
billions are in Islam and also rely on many miraculous events to demonstrate Allah is really the author of the text.

Just because they believe them that does not mean they need them. I suggest you take a course in logic.

And Sai Baba, after Bahai, has millions of people swear he levitated, healed, created food and many other miracles.

So what?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

You cannot prove or make any reasonable case for these beliefs. The more you try the less it works.

I am not trying to prove or make any reasonable case for my beliefs. I am just responding to posts.

It seems like you are trying to disprove and make a case against my beliefs, so perhaps you are projecting your intentions onto me.

 

[CG Didymus]

You are so blind with cognitive bias you can't see what is right in front of your eyes.
What visions? What dreams? What handmaiden prophecies?
What wonders in the heavens?
What sun turned to darkness?
When did the moon turn to blood?

She quotes Mark and says it is fulfilled by an earthquake, a smoky day, and a meteor shower. You are right. In Mark there is no earthquake, dark day and stars falling in that order. The earthquake is missing.

​

Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.​

​

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....​

​

These prophecies gave already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted.​

​

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake​

2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day​

3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars​

​

It is in Revelation that the earthquake, dark day and stars fall.

Revelation 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.​

​

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”​

​

Of course, it is taken out of context. An earthquake in Portugal and a dark day and a meteor shower, that happen decades before The Bab and Baha'u'llah, and don't happen anywhere near Persia, Don't fulfill anything. And definitely don't fulfill what happens in the verses that follow. All this stuff came from Bill Sears book, "Thief in the Night". These "signs" start around p. 179.

Now going back to Mark... What "tribulation"? Do Baha'is claim all these things happened before the sun went dark? And the usual problem for me, there's still wars and rumors of wars. So, does that mean it is not yet the end? Cherry picking is such a wonderful tool for people wanting to prove their beliefs are true.

Mark 13:5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.​

​

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.​

​

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.​

​

14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’[a] standing where it[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.​

​

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​

 

[Trailblazer]

She quotes Mark and says it is fulfilled by an earthquake, a smoky day, and a meteor shower. You are right. In Mark there is no earthquake, dark day and stars falling in that order. The earthquake is missing.

​

Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.​

​

It is in Revelation that the earthquake, dark day and stars fall.​

Revelation 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.​

That's right. The great earthquake was not in Mark, it was in Revelation. Thanks for pointing that out. I went back and corrected my post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, it is taken out of context. An earthquake in Portugal and a dark day and a meteor shower, that happen decades before The Bab and Baha'u'llah, and don't happen anywhere near Persia, Don't fulfill anything.

No Bible verses say when or where these events will take place, the Bible verses just give the order in which they will take place.

And definitely don't fulfill what happens in the verses that follow.

Revelation 6

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The verses that follow, as noted above, were also fulfilled by he coming of Baha'u'llah.

Of course, much of the Book of Revelation is symbolic, not a description literal events that will take place.
Every mountain and island are not going to literally be moved out of their places.
Men did not talk to the mountains and rocks, saying "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne."
This is just symbolic of the earthshaking power a Manifestation of God has on the whole earth, followed by the wrath of God for those who do not recognize Him.

The great day of God's wrath has come, and that is literally true, not symbolic.

“Say: There is no place of refuge for you, no asylum to which ye can flee, no one to defend or to protect you in this Day from the fury of the wrath of God and from His vehement power, unless and until ye seek the shadow of His Revelation. This, indeed, is His Revelation which hath been manifested unto you in the person of this Youth. Glorified, then, be God for so effulgent, so precious, so wondrous a vision.” Gleanings, p. 257​

​

“Thus have We recounted unto you the tales of the one true God, and sent down unto you the things He had preordained, that haply ye may ask forgiveness of Him, may return unto Him, may truly repent, may realize your misdeeds, may shake off your slumber, may be roused from your heedlessness, may atone for the things that have escaped you, and be of them that do good. Let him who will, acknowledge the truth of My words; and as to him that willeth not, let him turn aside. My sole duty is to remind you of your failure in duty towards the Cause of God, if perchance ye may be of them that heed My warning. Wherefore, hearken ye unto My speech, and return ye to God and repent, that He, through His grace, may have mercy upon you, may wash away your sins, and forgive your trespasses. The greatness of His mercy surpasseth the fury of His wrath, and His grace encompasseth all who have been called into being and been clothed with the robe of life, be they of the past or of the future.” Gleanings, pp. 129-130​

 

[joelr]

Why? What motive did "nature" have to create everything we see?
Everything just happened because it could?

Your first mistake is to insist that anything that happens has motive behind it. We see an entire universe around us with natural forces causing things to happen because it can. One universe was suitable for life, doesn't mean it was from intention. Things do happen because they can, nature follows the laws of probability. We know this from quantum mechanics and the fact that we see probabilities played out in the universe.

..you think that, because you refuse to accept the possibility that behaviour is not
determined by other than physical structure.

I don't refuse anything. I withhold belief in something until sufficient evidence is presented to warrant belief. Behavior could be caused by aliens who wrote a program and we are part of it. It could be because Vishnu created us and the universe, or Yahweh, or another God who is not revealed. But there is no good evidence to believe those are real things.

You refuse the concept of "the self".

The "self" is a known thing in neuroscience. It's a part of the brain, learned behavior, cultural, emotional, intellect and so on. Nothing to do with a soul or vitalism. That is an antiquated folk tale. Show me in neuroscience where they find the concept reasonable.

Not far off..
Some of us believe, and some of us disbelieve (in a life hereafter) .. and nobody can know for certain
what becomes of us .. it can be no more than a belief, WHATEVER you believe.

Yes it's not far off because that is where the beliefs you have come from. Greek mysticism adopted into Christian theology and then into Islamic theology.
The only evidence for it is that it's made up fiction from Greek society.
It isn't about belief (how many times can I say this before you understad?), it's about evidence. If you were a Muslim many centuries ago you would also think illness was from Allah. And all natural disaster. I don't care about folk tales I am interested in what is actually true.

If I don't know then I don't know, I don't ascribe it to fictional things.

 

[joelr]

I have absolutely no confirmation bias or cognitive bias. I just look at what actually happened.

You haven't given an alternate explanation, you just used denial. If you think a mundane list of accomplishments is a "miracle" than you have some sort of bias.
Overlooking all the terrible evidence is also a bias.
Overlooking all the wrong science is a bias.
Accepting virtually no evidence except "he said so" is a bias

Ignoring all parts of the Bible that don;t fit with Bahai, you have to claim is wrong. Anything that you make fit, then it's true. More bias.

ALL of this actually happened.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, Christ would return and the great day of God's wrath would come.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So this is confirmation bias as well. None of these things happened. They go in order, at the same time.
Not centuries apart?
However, Revelations is not written about a future event, that is a misreading, so it isn't a prophecy:


Apocalypses and Apocalypticism

33:50
Comes into Judaism from Persian religion. Messianic savior myths also come from Persia. Prior to this there also is no cosmic devil. This comes from Zoroastrianism. Physical resurrection of people and a new world at the end of times battle comes into Judaism from Zoroastrianism.

37:00 during the 2nd Temple Period God becomes more cosmic in scope, not walking around wrestling with people. Visions are attributed to angels and ancient authorities - Daniel, Enoch, Adam…

Daniel

43:53 Daniel attributed to a prophet of the Babylonian period but actually written between 167 and 164 BC. Daniels visions from Gabriel are very specific and accurate up through the year 167 BC and then fail dramatically after 164 BC. Which illustrates the date.

Daniel believes they are at the end times and are totally wrong.

Ezekiel’s prediction of the worlds end failed so the author of Daniel reinterpreted the timeframe so the end would occur in his day.

Danilel’s prediction failed so John the Revelator reinterpreted the timeframe so the world would end in his day. His failure resulted in ongoing recalculations.

Apocalyptic authors suffered from lack of perspective, falsely believing themselves to have been living at the end times.

Their readers share the same lack of perspective, falsely imagining that the text refer to the readers time (when they actually referred to the authors time)

For centuries people have been reading Revelation as future history. Often convinced the signs point to their own time. This is called temporal narcissism.


1:03:40
Joachim of Fiore used Revelation to predict the world would end 1260 AD.

1:08:03 Newton spent equal time studying the Bible to predict the future and inventing calculus. His future calculations were all wrong.

In Revelation - no mention of the Rapture, no anti-Christ, not a message of fear but hope

Revelation is misread as future history. War, famine, pestilence and death are already loosed on Earth. Revelation envisions a world where they will be eliminated.

These prophecies have already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake

Confirmation bias. "they have to be fulfilled in the exact order. Besides that you are misreading Revelations, as the historical lecture explains, you are cherry picking events big time. There were bigger earthquakes before and after all the other events. So you just picked one that would fit your list? Of course there will be earthquakes over 2 millenia?? That is ABSURD that it fits some random list? It doesn't.

For example,
before:

September 30, 1139. Ganja, Azerbaijan. fatalities - 230,000–300,000

July 5, 1201 and/or May 20, 1202. Eastern Mediterranean; see 1202 Syria earthquake. fatalities - 1,100,000

After:
January 8, 1780. Tabriz, Iran. fatalties - 40,000–200,000. mag. 7.4

you just picked one of the dozens of earthquakes that. randomly ALWAYS happen????
HUGEST confirmation bias EVER.

1755 Lisbon earthquake - Wikipedia

2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day

So this didn't even happen where Bahai was, and it's also a random thing that happened before and after the one you picked out to make your "prophecy" work.
Earlier that century, before the earthquake you used, this dark day happened:

The evidence that dark days result from fires may be briefed as follows: In 1716 the air was very full of smoke. During the dark day of 1780 ashes of burnt leaves, soot, and Out of Old Books 187 cinders fell in some sections from forest fires in New York and Canada.


Which was BEFORE the earthquake. So you just picked a random earthquake that happened to be after the random dark day. Yet all of these events happen all the time so you can make ANY ORDER that fits any prophecy. Also your events were not the worst BY FAR. Just random events over decades or centuries?
Clearly the prophecy is on the same day and in the same area, if it were even a real prophecy.

Ridiculous, you don't care about what is actually true. You went out of your way to pick just the right order of events to make a silly prophecy work, without even looking to see if your method had flaws? This is what confirmation bias IS. This is a perfect example of it.

You claimed I use it but still have not shown where I used it?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England's_Dark_Day

3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

We can do this for many many years with asteroid showers, meteors and other events, in many different years

http://www.patmospapers.com/ndex/stars.htm

That is irrelevant, since these same prophecies are in the Book of Revelation, and in Matthew and Mark.

Matthew and Mark are copying Daniel and Revelations is Apocalypticism, a genre taken from the Persians. When they occupied Israel they already had the same myth and it then spread into Judaism and Christianity. It's a fictional story.
The Biblical version is not even about the future but is absolute fiction.

That is true for all of the New Testament, not only Acts.

Yes, the NT is a fictional story based on Hellenistic savior theology, Persian Apocalypticism mixed with Judaism. It's fiction. Making Bahai also not real. This is what evidence demonstrates.

I do not doubt that Acts is fiction, especially these verses that Christians use to say that 'the same Jesus' will return "in like manner" as He left.
Christians believe that the body of Jesus was taken up into heaven in the clouds and that same body of Jesus will come back to earth in the clouds and land on the ground, feet first. It is laughable.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Yes Acts is fiction, but ALL of the stories are fiction besides some historical places. There are no Gods or angels giving messages to anyone. Not Paul, Muhammad or Bahai.

When a story contains some fiction it calls into question any other parts of the story.

 

[joelr]

No, not literally. How much of the Bible do you think is literal?

Gods talking to people is never real. There is no evidence it exists or Gods exist.

I did not say that. All of the 10 commandments are still valid for this age, except 4.

4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.

Back in the Old Testament, this meant they should not work on the Sabbath but they carried it too far and wouldn’t let people pick up something heavy. Jesus changed this and said we should keep the Sabbath day to worship, remember creation, and rest so we could serve God and others.

Understanding the 10 Commandments and their relevance for today

The 10 Commandments are God's instructions for how to live a life that honors God and brings abundance in our own.

www.reporter-times.com

I did not say "Everything Jesus said only was for the dispensation of Jesus and is now invalid."

I said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That was only true during the Dispensation of Jesus, which is now over. The way to the Father is now through Baha'u'llah since we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

So the part in bold was what I was referring to as no longer being valid.

This entire thing is just you re-stating the issue in different words.
You claim that this - "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." is only applicable during the "dispensation of Jesus"

But then you say all these other things are still valid, like the 10 commandments.

But NOTHING YOU LINKED TO SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT THIS. NOTHING.
Nothing says the dispensation is over, nothing says just that one line is only valid for the "dispensation of Jesus" which is now over.

That is something you made up or took from Bahai, either way, it's unproven, made up, and something a con would say to really say "now you have to follow me for proper salvation".
It's made up fiction about made up fiction.

The only things that may say the dispensation of Jesus are over and we are now in the dispensation of Baha'u'llah is scripture from Baha'u'llah . So now you are using the worst apologetic EVER.

"it's true because it says so".

Like I said, the more you write the worse and worse this gets for you.

I never claimed that. The spiritual truths that Jesus revealed are eternal. That is why Jesus said:
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”

No, only Jesus had a Gospel. A new revelation from God is not a Gospel.

All Gods and demigods had a gospel. They are writings by people pretending to be the God or demigod getting revelations.

I am not suggesting the Gospels are wrong. I am suggesting that:
a) They are not what humanity needs in this age, and
b) They have been misinterpreted by Christians.

Yes they are made-up fiction but you have no evidence that they are misinterpreted in the way you say.

The evidence is that Jesus is a made up Greek savior deity.

Some man came around in the 1800s and is trying to re-write Christianity so he is the new Jesus. There is a man in AU doing the same.
Probably others as well. No evidence it's real.

“Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets

Perfect. He thinks Jesus is real. The Gospel stories are not real, they are high level mythology, combining narratives from the OT, Romulus, and many other stories. It's also a mystery religion, common at the time. He doesn't know this. He just wants to re-interpret the gospels so there can be prophets, like Muhammad.
When sufficient evidence is presented to believe only then should it be taken seriously. But the Gospels are a fictional story and Bahai is also based on fiction.


{e) Myth and rite


The best way to tackle the question of what the aim of the performance of the mysteries was, or in other words what kind of salvation the mystery cults promised, is to attempt to determine the relationship between myth and rite. Every cult is based on its own divine myth, which narrates what happens to a god; in most cases, he has to take a path of suffering and wandering, but this often leads to victory at the end. The rite depicts this path in abbreviated form and thus makes it possible for the initiated to be taken up into the story of the god, to share in his labours and above all in his victory. Thus there comes into being a ritual participation which contains the perspective of winning salvation (awrqpia). The hope for salvation can be innerworldly, looking for protection from life's many tribulations, e.g. sickness, poverty, dangers on journey, and death; but it can also look for something better in the life after death. It always involves an intensification of vitality and of life expectation, to be achieved through participation in the indestructible life of a god (cf in general terms Burkert 11: mysteries 'aimed at a change of mind through experience of the sacred').

The Religious Context of Early Christianity


A Guide to Graeco-Roman Religions


HANS-JOSEF KLAUCK






https://bahai-library.com/townshend_christ_bahaullah&chapter=4

No religious leaders do not do anything on this list except Christian leaders, who Call to remembrance what Jesus said, Testify of Jesus, and Glorify Jesus.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Yeah, Christian teachers all do this list. It is not a "miracle" to do these things.

“To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets

Then provide evidence. Please stop continually with the "but it's true because it says so" point. It's so awful and confirmation of massive confirmation bias that it's taking away some of my intelligence. You cannot demonstrate or argue a point with "but he said so". I cannot even believe you have repeatedly tried?



https://bahai-library.com/townshend_christ_bahaullah&chapter=4

No, I do not believe in the religion called Christianity. The Gospels might be correct, but the Gospel message has been misinterpreted by Christians, who corrupted the Gospel message.

And you have no evidence the gospels are true, and you have no evidence they were corrupted except a man who said they were. So much for a logical methodology.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

His writings are terrible, please stop posting them. He says nothing and takes a really long time.
I'm looking for those manifestations. Not seeing anything except people trying to convince other people they are in touch with a God.




http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-86.html#pg171

No, Son of Man is not the title of a deity. It is a reference to a human being who is perfect.

“In the previously quoted passage Baháu'lláh appears to specifically affirm the title 'Son of Man (or 'Son of Humanity, as some modern Christian theologians prefer to translate it) as referring to Jesus. Baháu'lláh does not say what the term means, and Christian tradition has been fairly vague about the terms meaning. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

Then they were wrong once again, which is weird since he supposedly talks to a God. There are 3 uses in the Bible, which he should have known.



The Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם, ben-'adam) appears 107 times in the Hebrew Bible, the majority (93 times) in the Book of Ezekiel.[1] It is used in three main ways: as a form of address (Ezekiel); to contrast the lowly status of humanity against the permanence and exalted dignity of God and the angels (Numbers 23:19, Psalm 8:4); and as a future eschatological figure whose coming will signal the end of history and the time of God's judgment (Daniel 7:13–14).[2]

 

[joelr]

No, that verse does not mean God 'cares' if people believe Him. It only means that God gave us Jesus so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

It does and if he didn't care if people believed him he would not say the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN is disbelief and one of the first commandments wouldn't be I am your God and you shall have no other.

Revealing a new religion is not admitting God got the first one wrong. The Gospel message was never intended to suffice for all of time.
The Gospel message served a certain purpose. That purpose was served so is time to move on to God's Purpose for this new age.

Great, please show me where the gospel message says it's temporary and a new messiah will come. Not in code, show me where this is said so it's understood.

So you are now saying you don't buy one fiction because a newer fiction said it's wrong. Cool. I don;t care. My question is do you have evidence. Not word games. Not continuously quoting your scripture as if it means anything.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

Oh look, more scripture by a person making false claims. What exactly is this supposed to prove besides that his writing isn't very good?
If his claims are not false, provide evidence reasonable to the claims.

God’s Purpose

I find this writing to be that of a man, nothing more. His writing is far below great writers.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-31.html

Aside from that, Christianity is not 'the first religion.'

So?

Omnipotence does not imply responsibility. It is not God's responsibility to correct human mistakes.

Yet you think Christianity and Judiasm is true and that God does try very hard to correct human mistakes. He kills the entire world, destroys cities, sends messages, tortures Job and much more.

Sos you are not correct.

God did not write the Bible, it was written by humans. If God wrote it. it would be correct, just as the Writings of Baha'u'llah are correct.

Bahai writings are DEFINITELY not from a God. I think if you actually read Greek and modern philosophy you would see it's rather lowbrow.

God did not mess up the Bible, humans did that.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

More "it's true because my book says". I really don't care how much you buy into a cult. I ask for evidence and you continue to talk around my requests and attempt to preach. You cannot even seem to understand the simple concept of someone else not buying into your religion?

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-86.html#pg171

God could have gotten the book together but instead God chose to allow humans to put it together and humans are fallible so they made mistakes.

Did he now? So says Bahai. who seems to know NOTHIING of importance, nothing of historical facts about Christianity, which he could have given, before we discovered them. But nope. He only knows what information is available at the time. Huh, it's almost like he's a faker?

One big mistake atheists make is to say that an All-Powerful God could do x so that God would or should do x. That is patently illogical since power does not imply responsibility. God only does what God chooses to do, period.

Speaking of mistakes, how about taking the word of a sub-par writer that he is the next Jesus.

And, even worse, you are still wrong because I'm not implying anything, I'm going by the scriptures. The OT.

It is because God is All-Powerful that God only does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

Yeah that's Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Saying "doth" and "chooseth" doesn't make it real. People didn't talk like that in the 1800s and he had an English translation so that is just ridiculous.

 

[joelr]

God gave those commandments and laws through Moses, and God gave them to humans.
God is not subject to following those commandments and laws since a) God is All-Good and b) God is not a human.

You said it yourself, if God is all good than he is concerned with ethics and morals and would do the most moral thing. So I was correct.

Answering posts does not mean I care about what anyone believes. It only means I answer posts. My motives are my own.

sorry but I believe you care. You are not answering posts to provide evidence or reasonable answers. Just preaching, which means you are attempting to spread belief.

So do you.

No, I'm correcting every illogical point you make and demonstrating your points are all fallacies.
It's true because my book says is the most obvious but there are others. You have not made one good point yet. All this shows is your beliefs are not based in evidence and not warranted by a logical methodology.

 

[joelr]

Just because they believe them that does not mean they need them. I suggest you take a course in logic.

Yes, that does follow. Let's see- Christians of all levels have repeatedly said if the resurrection was proven false they would no longer be Christian. If Islam found out Muhammad did not receive revelations or Joe Smith did not also have them, both religions would fail.

If you found out that Bahai was not really in communication with a God and that was a false claim, you would probably leave the religion.

My class in logic is now over.

So what?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

This is your other fallacy you seem to be fond of. Misdirection. I say one thing and you respond with a strawman as if I said something else.

I said Sai Baba had millions of miracle claims because you said this:

""Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead."

I was not saying Sai Baba is a miracle worker. If I was your response may have been fitting, except that wasn't the case. You were claiming his disciples said Bahai raised the dead or healed incurables.
So I responded that so did Sai Baba, and obviously he isn't a deity. To demonstrate anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.

Yet your response didn't deal with that did it? You lied and made it seem like I was saying Sai Baba is a miracle worker because many people made that claim. And went and posted a lecture about argumemtum ad populum (as if I don't know it), yet that wasn't my point and you know this wasn't my point.

So this is a strawman but worse its complete dishonesty.

So I get it, you have no evidence except "the book says so" and you will twist my words whenever you feel you can get away with it to try and look like you have done something.
You have not besides be dishonest and fail to provide evidence.

I am not trying to prove or make any reasonable case for my beliefs. I am just responding to posts.

All you are doing is try to make some sort of case for these beliefs? Now you are just going in circles with "the book says" and fake replies to things I didn't say. I told you, it gets worse the more you engage.

It seems like you are trying to disprove and make a case against my beliefs, so perhaps you are projecting your intentions onto me.

I don't have to, your beliefs disprove themselves to anyone who cares about rational and empirical methods to knowing what is true.

I'm just pointing out belief in supernatural claims without evidence isn't rational.
Trying to counter with "but the book says" just adds more evidence that the beliefs are irrational. Along with cherry picking vague prophecies.

 

[joelr]

She quotes Mark and says it is fulfilled by an earthquake, a smoky day, and a meteor shower. You are right. In Mark there is no earthquake, dark day and stars falling in that order. The earthquake is missing.

​

Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.​

​

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....​

​

These prophecies gave already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted.​

​

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake​

2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day​

3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars​

​

It is in Revelation that the earthquake, dark day and stars fall.

Revelation 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.​

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15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”​

​

Of course, it is taken out of context. An earthquake in Portugal and a dark day and a meteor shower, that happen decades before The Bab and Baha'u'llah, and don't happen anywhere near Persia, Don't fulfill anything. And definitely don't fulfill what happens in the verses that follow. All this stuff came from Bill Sears book, "Thief in the Night". These "signs" start around p. 179.

Now going back to Mark... What "tribulation"? Do Baha'is claim all these things happened before the sun went dark? And the usual problem for me, there's still wars and rumors of wars. So, does that mean it is not yet the end? Cherry picking is such a wonderful tool for people wanting to prove their beliefs are true.

Mark 13:5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.​

​

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.​

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12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.​

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14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’[a] standing where it[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.​

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20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​

Yes, it's bizarre cherry-picking events over centuries. There are huge earthquakes, smoky skies and objects falling from the sky almost every decade going back 2000 years.
In Revelation they certainly happen on the same day at least. But Revelation isn't a future prediction either. I pointed out a timestamped lecture by a historian/Pastor who explains this in response but I don't think it will be taken in. I don't believe the goal is to know what is true but rather to find ways to confirm what they want to be true. which is confirmation bias.
Bart Ehrman and ELaine Pagels, both excellent historians have a book on Revelation. The people who believe never seem interested in what experts in the literature have to say.? Even just to consider it?

Bahai is similar to Mormonism and Scientology where people sometimes read the writings and really want it to be true and only focus on ways to confirm the truth rather than take an honest look at what's really happening. I talk about it to see if there is any evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If I don't know then I don't know..

Right .. but that is not how you come across.
You come across as if there is NOT any life hereafter,
and harp on about scientific evidence to the contrary.

I don't think it is possible to make such conclusions from empirical means,such as neuroscience.
You confuse the "here and now", with a possible future for all.
It is merely a belief, that your psyche cannot be somehow transformed. It is
based on a material view of all that is.

 

[Trailblazer]

So this is confirmation bias as well. None of these things happened. They go in order, at the same time.
Not centuries apart?

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The Bible does not say they will happen at the same time.
The Bible does not say how long the interval would be between these events.

They go in order, but not at the same time. If they go in order, that cannot happen at the same time.

These three events would take place in order, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, Christ would return and the great day of God's wrath would come.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All of these things happened. These prophecies were fulfilled in the exact order predicted and then Baha'u'llah appeared.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

However, Revelations is not written about a future event, that is a misreading, so it isn't a prophecy:

Believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gods talking to people is never real. There is no evidence it exists or Gods exist.

God talking to people is never real since God does not talk. God only communicated to Messengers and only through the Holy Spirit.
There is evidence that God exists although there is no proof.

This entire thing is just you re-stating the issue in different words.
You claim that this - "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." is only applicable during the "dispensation of Jesus"

But then you say all these other things are still valid, like the 10 commandments.

Some things will always be valid but others change in each new dispensation. That's just the way it goes.
In each new dispensation the 'way to the Father' is through the Messenger of God who ushers in that new dispensation.
People can still get to the Father through the previous Messengers but that is not what God wants us to do.

“Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 172​

But NOTHING YOU LINKED TO SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT THIS. NOTHING.
Nothing says the dispensation is over, nothing says just that one line is only valid for the "dispensation of Jesus" which is now over.

That is something you made up or took from Bahai, either way, it's unproven, made up, and something a con would say to really say "now you have to follow me for proper salvation".
It's made up fiction about made up fiction.

The only things that may say the dispensation of Jesus are over and we are now in the dispensation of Baha'u'llah is scripture from Baha'u'llah .

Actually it is the Guardian Shoghi Effendi who said that the previous dispensations are over.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.” God Passes By, p. 100

“A Revelation, hailed as the promise and crowning glory of past ages and centuries, as the consummation of all the Dispensations within the Adamic Cycle, inaugurating an era of at least a thousand years’ duration, and a cycle destined to last no less than five thousand centuries, signalizing the end of the Prophetic Era and the beginning of the Era of Fulfillment, unsurpassed alike in the duration of its Author’s ministry and the fecundity and splendor of His mission—such a Revelation was, as already noted, born amidst the darkness of a subterranean dungeon in Tihrán—an abominable pit that had once served as a reservoir of water for one of the public baths of the city.” God Passes By, p. 100

Like I said, the more you write the worse and worse this gets for you.

Actually, the more I write the better it gets for me.

Then provide evidence. Please stop continually with the "but it's true because it says so" point. It's so awful and confirmation of massive confirmation bias that it's taking away some of my intelligence. You cannot demonstrate or argue a point with "but he said so". I cannot even believe you have repeatedly tried?

I have already provided the evidence 100 times over.
Either don't pay attention to what I am actually saying or you are unable to comprehend it.
I never said it is true "because he said so" so that is a big fat straw man.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does and if he didn't care if people believed him he would not say the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN is disbelief and one of the first commandments wouldn't be I am your God and you shall have no other.

No, Jesus said that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which means hating God.

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

Great, please show me where the gospel message says it's temporary and a new messiah will come. Not in code, show me where this is said so it's understood.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Baha'u'llah was called the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

My question is do you have evidence. Not word games. Not continuously quoting your scripture as if it means anything.

I have posted the evidence numerous times. I posted it years ago on this thread:

The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah are in this post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Oh look, more scripture by a person making false claims. What exactly is this supposed to prove besides that his writing isn't very good?
If his claims are not false, provide evidence reasonable to the claims.

I find this writing to be that of a man, nothing more. His writing is far below great writers.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 116-117

Shoghi Effendi was a man, not a Messenger of God or a writer. He was the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith and he translated the Writings of Baha'u'llah.http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-31.html

Yet you think Christianity and Judiasm is true and that God does try very hard to correct human mistakes. He kills the entire world, destroys cities, sends messages, tortures Job and much more.

Sos you are not correct.

God never did any of that. Men wrote stories about God and it is anthropomorphism. The stories convey spiritual lessons, but they are not literally true.

Bahai writings are DEFINITELY not from a God. I think if you actually read Greek and modern philosophy you would see it's rather lowbrow.

The Writings of Baha'u'llah are definitely from God. I have plenty of other reasons to believe that the Baha'i Faith is true, but if all I had were the Writings of Baha'u'llah that would be enough.

More "it's true because my book says".

Another straw man. You really have a problem understanding what I am saying. I never said it is true because my book says it is true.

Did he now? So says Bahai. who seems to know NOTHIING of importance, nothing of historical facts about Christianity, which he could have given, before we discovered them. But nope. He only knows what information is available at the time. Huh, it's almost like he's a faker?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? You constantly make assumptions about what I say.
Baha'u'llah did NOT say that. I am the one who said that because it is true. Humans to put the Bible together and humans are fallible so they made mistakes.

And, even worse, you are still wrong because I'm not implying anything, I'm going by the scriptures. The OT.

The OT does not say an All-Powerful God could do x, so God would or should do x. That is coming from atheists, constantly.

Yeah that's Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Saying "doth" and "chooseth" doesn't make it real. People didn't talk like that in the 1800s and he had an English translation so that is just ridiculous.

The kind of language that the Writings of Baha'u'llah were translated into does not make what He said true or false.
There is a reason they were translated that way.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said it yourself, if God is all good than he is concerned with ethics and morals and would do the most moral thing. So I was correct.

God does not do things like a human does things. God wills things to happen and they happen.

sorry but I believe you care. You are not answering posts to provide evidence or reasonable answers. Just preaching, which means you are attempting to spread belief.

Teaching is not preaching. Even if I am teaching to spread the beliefs that doesn't mean I care if people accept them. I don't care.

"If the whole world should arise to deny this cause, we must not fight. Our only role is to spread the teachings. If it be accepted, all is well; if not, leave the people to God."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 41

No, I'm correcting every illogical point you make and demonstrating your points are all fallacies.

You have not pointed out any fallacies that I have committed.

It's true because my book says is the most obvious but there are others. You have not made one good point yet. All this shows is your beliefs are not based in evidence and not warranted by a logical methodology.

I never said it is true because my book says so, so that is a straw man.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, that does follow. Let's see- Christians of all levels have repeatedly said if the resurrection was proven false they would no longer be Christian. If Islam found out Muhammad did not receive revelations or Joe Smith did not also have them, both religions would fail.

If you found out that Bahai was not really in communication with a God and that was a false claim, you would probably leave the religion.

My class in logic is now over.

When I said "Just because they believe them that does not mean they need them" I was referring to the miracles, exorcisms, magic powers and so on. Christians 'believe' they need them but that does not mean they really need them.

That is not the same as Muhammad or Baha'u'llah receiving revelations from God. The entire religions of Islam and Baha'i are based upon those revelations so of course we need them in order to have a religion at all.

This is your other fallacy you seem to be fond of. Misdirection. I say one thing and you respond with a strawman as if I said something else.

You said: And Sai Baba, after Bahai, has millions of people swear he levitated, healed, created food and many other miracles.

I said: So what?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

What I said was not misdirection, it was the appropriate response. So what if millions of people swear that Asi Baba levitated, healed, created food and many other miracles? That does not mean it is true. That is the fallacy of ad populum.

All you are doing is try to make some sort of case for these beliefs? Now you are just going in circles with "the book says" and fake replies to things I didn't say. I told you, it gets worse the more you engage.

It might get worse for you but it gets better for me.

I don't have to, your beliefs disprove themselves to anyone who cares about rational and empirical methods to knowing what is true.

My beliefs prove themselves to anyone who is rational or logical.

I'm just pointing out belief in supernatural claims without evidence isn't rational.

I do not believe in supernatural claims without evidence.

 

[joelr]

Right .. but that is not how you come across.
You come across as if there is NOT any life hereafter,

Because there is no evidence that supports it and the people who started the concept were basically wrong about everything else as well.

and harp on about scientific evidence to the contrary.

If people were saying the Earth was flat, germs are not real or everything revolves around the Earth would you not harp on scientific evidence to demonstrate the contrary?
You are talking about science as if it isn't our best method to demonstrate what is true.

I don't think it is possible to make such conclusions from empirical means,such as neuroscience.

It isn't possible to show that Zeus isn't real from scientific means. Doesn't mean Zeus is real.

You confuse the "here and now", with a possible future for all.

Possible futures are meaningless if they are just made up from wishful thinking.

You confuse mythologies, folk tales and ancient tales in ancient books with a possible future for all.

It is merely a belief, that your psyche cannot be somehow transformed. It is
based on a material view of all that is.

And the belief that a tooth fairy doesn't really come and take your teeth, or a rabbits foot isn't really lucky is also based on a materialist view.
It's only when you want something that you bought into yet has no evidence do you start making these arguments. The question is, is it because the concept has any probability or are you just attached to something you read and by what methodology can you show a difference if you claim there is one?