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Can we change our mind about what we believe?

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can we change our mind about what we believe?

@PureX said that one CAN change their mind, but they won't because they don't want to deny their current understanding of 'what is'. #523

I disagree. One CAN change their mind, and they sometimes do, if they get new information that causes them to change their mind. However, if they don't change their mind, it is because they truly believe that what they believe is true according to their current understanding. It is not that they won’t change their mind, as if they are stubbornly refusing to change their mind, it is that they have no reason to change their mind.

Why should anyone deny that what they believe is true?

Conversely, why should anyone accept any belief as true if they don’t believe it is true?

Why should atheists accept that God exists when they see no evidence for God’s existence?

I do not think that atheists are stubbornly refusing to believe in God. I take them at their word when they say that they see no evidence for God. It is not that they won’t believe in God, it is that they can’t believe in God because they see no evidence for God. The same holds true for me. It is not that I won’t disbelieve in God, it is that I can’t disbelieve in God because I see evidence for God.
In this context I suspect can change my mind, but within parameters. That is, about some things and not about others.

For example, I'm still open to persuasion by satisfactory demonstration, an area in which supernaturalists are notoriously inept.

The question is, can I change so that some other form of persuasion works for me instead?

On the one hand, I see no evidence pointing in that direction.

On the other, I notice reports now and again ─ Antony Flew is a notorious example ─ of unbelievers becoming believers in old age. I think that's due to a decline in mental energy (which often, indeed almost routinely, reflects age's decline of the body's physical energy). It seems harder to maintain a point of view that depends on reasoned thought. So this gets replaced with (in Flew's case, I'd say) earliest childhood learning instead, emotional requiring far less energy than rational.

Will that happen to me? One day I may find out ...
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Because God never changes.
Oh, so my rant on an ethical God was a personal opinion but you know all the God-facts?

Except you forgot "progressive revelation" is part of your religion. He's supposed to reveal more advanced stuff. He didn't.

The information is the purpose of the messenger, it is not so God can demonstrate he is actually giving messages.

1) Than anyone can claim to be a messenger. By what methodology can you show information is from a man or from a God?

2) His writing is not great. There is low content, lot's of flowery praise, little actual information. HE doesn't pick up with theology like any of the late Christian writers, correct them, add to them, nothing. The information is in no way from a deity.


All religions did not come with strong proofs. I do not consider the Bible a strong proof. It is proof of nothing, except that men can write a book about God and Jesus and other prophets, and tell stories.
In the stories, yes they came with strong proofs.

In real life, no, they came with folk tales. The Gospels combine Jewish thought with trendy Greek and Persian myth. Written in Greek, by educated Greek school writers, anonymous, not eyewitness and it looks like they just re-wrote older narratives and placed Jesus as the star.
OT, Romulus, Homer, Mystery religions, there is very little chance those stories are real in any way.
Making Bahai by default, a mythology.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Well, what evidence would you expect to see?
I mean, do you remember being dead? :)
I have no memory of a prior life.

When brains are damaged peoples personality changes. In one case a person became split personality, one was atheist and one theist.
So did his soul also split? The evidence with minds shows without the physical the consciousness experience ends and is entirely dependent.

A paper with a word written on it is often put in operating rooms high up, so if the person leaves their body they may see it. No one has ever correctly said what the words are. The concept of a soul goes back to a time when people held all types of wrong ideas about reality. But there isn't evidence that suggests it's true either.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In John 14:17, the identity of the helper is now revealed: He is the Spirit of truth (cf. John 15:26; 16:13). The Spirit of truth is God the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity. The Father will send the Spirit to come alongside the disciples.
The Spirit of truth is Baha'u'llah who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity in the last days.

The Father sent the Holy Spirit to the disciples on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Baha'u'llah in the last days.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
He is called the Spirit of truth because He bears witness to the truth of Jesus Christ (see John 14:6).

Not a man claiming revelations and starting a new religion.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That was only true during the Dispensation of Jesus, which is now over. The way to the Father is now through Baha'u'llah since we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

He is called the Spirit of truth because he does everything that Jesus says that the Spirit of truth will do.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Spirit of truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
LOL, cherry pick much? You just used scripture to back up your religion. THEN, when it doesn't help your position you claims they are "stories in the Bible" in a negative way.
One reply later!
Stories are stories, they are not prophecies. I don't use stories to back up my position.
What I am doing is not believing the stories, I'm pointing out your interpretation is all over the map. You claim some verse is true, others are just stories, you have to make an entirely new gospel to make Bahai work. Yet another sign that its' fake.
I do not have to make a new gospel, I just have to present the correct interpretation of the gospel.

"Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets
1) nothing here means a person is getting magical revelations
2) All religious leaders in Christianity meet this list
3) I cannot even believe you would make such a poor argument. Everything on the list is things any person could do.
No religious leaders in Christianity meet anything on this list except Call to remembrance what Jesus said, Testify of Jesus, and Glorify Jesus.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

I cannot even believe you would make such a poor argument.
Nothing on the list is things any person could do.
The only things any person could do are Call to remembrance what Jesus said, Testify of Jesus, and Glorify Jesus.

In order to qualify to be the Comforter and the Spirit of truth one has to do ALL these things, not just 2 1/2 of them.
LOL! This is too much. Only Bahai know because some dude who wrote a lot and made revelation claims also reinterpreted scripture and "he knows". Christians are clueless, yet their guy did magic, miracles, raised from the dead and your guy wrote books and excuses why he couldn't also do supernatural things.
Maybe some evidence first might be nice.
You believe in the supernatural things that Jesus allegedly did because they are in the NT, but you don't believe in the supernatural things Baha'u'llah did because you have confirmation bias.
Oh wow, so these verses are good but the other verse that say Jesus himself is coming back, those are mistaken.
And you have no evidence, a guy said so.
There is not one single verse in the entire NT that says that Jesus is coming back to earth. There are only verses that say His work was finished here and He is no more in the world. Christians have no explanations for these verses.
It's Jesus:

saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.”
So what? That does not mean that Jesus was the Son of man who was coming back to earth.

Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus.

Jesus was called the Son of man, but He was never slated to be the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, God is on the hook to provide sufficient evidence to hold such a belief. There is not sufficient evidence for any God beliefs.
God is not on the hook for anything at all since God is not accountable to humans for anything He does or does not do.
Case closed.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, it's based on human experience. Methods that have worked best for humans understanding reality and based on ethics and morals which a God should have.
God is not a human so God is not subject to having morals and ethics. Only humans have morals and ethics.

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.
Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Conflating God with humans is the fallacy of false equivalence.
The scriptures DO contain motivations for God, have you read the OT?????????????????
Sorry, I am not a Christian so I don't believe in the anthropomorphisms of the Old Testament.
I do not even believe that most of the OT was inspired by God.
I don't believe that.
I do not care if you believe it. It's the truth. I don't care what anyone believes since it is not my responsibility.
Yes, the flaw is you have run out of things to say. But the thing that shows your position is flawed is you have no evidence.
I will never run out of things to say but I get tired of repeating myself.
The thing that shows my position is not flawed is that I have evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It isn't confirmation bias if all the religions DO have supernatural stories, it's a fact that religions needed those stories.
Those religions needed them thousands of years ago but nobody needs them now.
The reason they don't have them is because he cannot claim to be having super powers because people would see he doesn't. So instead, he says all those tales are misinterpretations.
If Baha'u'llah had chosen to use His supernatural powers people would have seen that He had them.

"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them.

With this caveat in mind, it’s fun to look back on our history, and see how the Central Figures handled miracles."

To continue reading:
Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
When brains are damaged peoples personality changes..
That doesn't surprise me..
It doesn't lead me to believe that physical matter is all that is.
eg. when computer hardware is faulty, the software cannot run properly

..and computer software does not appear without reason, and purpose.

The concept of a soul goes back to a time when people held all types of wrong ideas about reality..
Errr, no.
Psychology is not about physical matter. It is about human behaviour. It is part of reality.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Yes, but I don't think that reasoning governs our decisions. fMRI studies have shown for example that moral decisions are made before the person is even conscious of it. After our unconscious minds decides, then our conscious minds manufacture reasons for it.

Do you think there is any scenario where our decisions could be guided by reason?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Except you forgot "progressive revelation" is part of your religion. He's supposed to reveal more advanced stuff. He didn't.
When I first heard about the Baha'i Faith, I thought "progressive" revelation made sense. Now I don't think it makes any sense. We have people in one part of the world that have a religion that fits perfectly into their culture... almost like they made it up. And, as you have pointed out many times, people have made up and/or borrowed their Gods and religious beliefs. I think there's a good reason to believe that some religions weren't "revealed" by some divine messenger, but that the religious leaders made up the divine messenger, the religion and their Gods.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
The Spirit of truth is Baha'u'llah who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity in the last days.

The Father sent the Holy Spirit to the disciples on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Wow, so many thing wrong here.

1) massive confirmation bias, the word Baha’u’llah isn't said or any names remotely close to the fact.

but it gets worse.....


The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Baha'u'llah in the last days.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

You are so blind with cognitive bias you can't see what is right in front of your eyes.
What visions? What dreams? What handmaiden prophecies?
What wonders in the heavens?
What sun turned to darkness?
When did the moon turn to blood?

NONE of those things happened. What actually happened is a man claimed revelations, nothing in the prophecy happened, zip.


But worse, Acts is the most fictive of all books in the Bible. It copies the common narratives that were popular in that time.

"
Although it is implied in the preface of the book of Acts that it is supposed to be some kind of historical account, this couldn’t be further from the truth. In fact, Acts has been thoroughly discredited as nothing more than a work of apologetic historical fiction, and the scholarship of Richard Pervo conclusively demonstrates this to be the case. Regarding any historical sources that Luke may have used for Acts, the only one that has been confirmed with any probability was that of Josephus (a person who never wrote about Jesus Christ nor Christianity, yet was likely used by Luke for background material), and although there may have been more historical sources than Josephus, we simply don’t have any evidence preserved from those other possible historians to make a case one way or the other. All of the other sources that we can discern within Acts are literary sources, not historical ones. Included in these literary sources is what may possibly have been a (now-lost) hagiographical fabrication, and basically a rewrite of the Elijah-Elisha narrative in some of the Old Testament (OT) texts of Kings, although placing Paul and Jesus in the main roles instead, which obviously would have been a literary source of historical fiction (not any kind of historical account).

The scholar Thomas Brodie has argued that this evident reworking of the Kings narrative starts in Luke’s Gospel and continues on until Acts chapter 15, thus indicating that Luke either integrated this literary creation into his story or he used an underlying source text, such as some previous Gospel that not only covered the acts of Jesus but also the acts of the apostles. So it appears that Luke either used this source text or his own literary idea and then inserted more stories into it, effectively expanding the whole story into two books, while also utilizing some material from Mark and Matthew during the process (and potentially other now-lost Gospels) and some material from the epistles of Paul. In any case, the unnamed source text mentioned thus far is a hypothetical one that can only be inferred to have existed from the evidence of what’s written in Acts. Luckily, the remaining literary sources that scholars can discern Luke used are indeed sources we actually have and thus can directly compare to and analyze.

As an example, the scholar Dennis MacDonald has shown that Luke also reworked fictional tales written by Homer, replacing the characters and some of the outcomes as needed to suit his literary purposes. MacDonald informs us in his The Shipwrecks of Odysseus and Paul (New Testament Studies, 45, pp. 88-107) that:
The shipwrecks of Odysseus and Paul share nautical images and vocabulary, the appearance of a goddess or angel assuring safety, the riding of planks, the arrival of the hero on an island among hospitable strangers, the mistaking of the hero as a god, and the sending of him on his way [in a new ship].
Paul actually tells us himself that he was shipwrecked three times, and that at least one time he spent a day and night adrift (2 Cor. 11.25). It’s possible that Luke was inspired by this detail given by Paul and used it to invent a story that expanded on it, while borrowing other ideas and details from famous shipwreck narratives including those found in Jonah, the Odyssey, and the Aeneid. In fact, Acts rewrites Homer a number of other times. Paul’s resurrection of the fallen Eutychus was based on the fallen Elpenor. The visions of Cornelius and Peter were constructed from a similar narrative that was written about Agamemnon. Paul’s farewell at Miletus was made from Hector’s farewell to Andromache. The lottery of Matthias we hear about was built off of the lottery of Ajax. Even Peter’s escape from prison was lifted from Priam’s escape from Achilles. There are other literary sources besides Homer that the author of Acts used as well. For example, the prison breaks in Acts share several themes with the famously miraculous prison breaks found in the Bacchae of Euripedes such as the miraculous unlocking of chains and being able to escape due to an earthquake (compare Acts 12.6-7 and 16.26 to Bacchae pp. 440-49, 585-94)........................





As we can see, in order for Acts to be any kind of history, one would have to assume that all of these parallels are merely historical coincidences which is orders of magnitude less probable than that they are simply inventions that were intentionally created to reflect one another. It’s certainly possible for a couple of these coincidences to be historical, but it is nigh impossible for all of them to be historical. Either way, there isn’t any way to weed out any of the possible historical details from within this plethora of fictional constructions. Overall, Acts just shares far too many features with popular adventure novels that were written during the same period, in order to lend it any trust as history. Here’s an overview of those features:

1) They all promote a particular god or religion.
2) They are all travel narratives.
3) They all involve miraculous or amazing events.
4) They all include encounters with fabulous or exotic people.
5) They often incorporate a theme of chaste couples that are separated and then reunited.
6) They all feature exciting narratives of captivities and escapes.
7) They often include themes of persecution.
8) They often include episodes involving excited crowds.
9) They often involve divine rescues from danger.
10) They often have divine revelations which are integral to the plot

Since Acts shares all of these features and thus looks exactly like an ancient novel of the period, there is simply no good reason to assume that all of the parallels it has with other literary sources are merely historical coincidences. Rather, we should conclude that they are in fact what they have been shown to be: literary constructs and other elements of fiction.

More examples here:



Acts is fiction.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
No, the sun did not go out, the moon did not turn to blood.




John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That was only true during the Dispensation of Jesus, which is now over. The way to the Father is now through Baha'u'llah since we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

Is that right? So the 10 commandments are only good for the dispensation of Moses.

Everything Jesus said only was for the dispensation of Jesus and is now invalid?

Biggest bunch of baloney I have ever heard.

Feel free to demonstrate evidence that Jesus only meant for his time.
A guy running a con would likely tell his followers that he is now the person you should listen to.
And of course he cannot provide evidence either.

This gets worse and worse the more you reveal.


He is called the Spirit of truth because he does everything that Jesus says that the Spirit of truth will do.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Spirit of truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus.
Yes, and the list was hillarious and a bit sad. It contained things that basically all religious leaders do anyways. But that people would fall for such a poor scheme bums me out.



“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Yes that is a story in the Bible.



http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html.utf8?query=son|of|man&action=highlight
Stories are stories, they are not prophecies. I don't use stories to back up my position.
You don't use anything to back up your position. You take a fictional prophecy and claim it's actually about Bahai, yet nothing in the prophecy actually happened. As if an infinite God couldn't say the actual names of his successors.
Then give this ridiculous list that "proves" he's a prophet because he teaches, spreads the word and other things EVERY Pastor does.




I do not have to make a new gospel, I just have to present the correct interpretation of the gospel.
Which would be a new Gospel. The Gospels are already considered the word of God, so suggesting they are wrong is admitting the religion is false which destroys your position. The credd is that the Gospels in the form they were in at the Nicene and other councils, were the inspired word.





"Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”
A man tells you this and you eat it up. No different than people buying the Mormon stories, JW, any cult. You do not care about what is true, only making what you want to be true true.




The False Prophets

No religious leaders in Christianity meet anything on this list except Call to remembrance what Jesus said, Testify of Jesus, and Glorify Jesus.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
All religious leaders do this.





I cannot even believe you would make such a poor argument.
Nothing on the list is things any person could do.
The only things any person could do are Call to remembrance what Jesus said, Testify of Jesus, and Glorify Jesus.
Pastors"
teach
call to rememberance what Jesus said
testify
glorify Jesus, shew it and such....
guide you to the truth
speak what he hears and things to come, yes, he also has access to prophecy
reprove the world of sin, yes, religious leaders do this by leading people away from sin (a made up concept)


What's unbelievable is that you are actually taken in by this list and actually think any of it is special in any way. It isn't, all religious leaders do all of it.

Interesting that they don't say the things that all religious people who had revelations used to claim - miracles, magic, exorcisms, super-powers...
They know Bahai cannot do anything like that so instead they have this lame list.
If someone told you Mormonism was true, because Joseph Smith did those things you would probably laugh.




In order to qualify to be the Comforter and the Spirit of truth one has to do ALL these things, not just 2 1/2 of them.


It's a mundane list of remedial achievments.
You believe in the supernatural things that Jesus allegedly did because they are in the NT, but you don't believe in the supernatural things Baha'u'llah did because you have confirmation bias.
I guess you don't understand what confirmation bias actually is.

I believe the NT says Jesus did those things. So if you are in a religion that also believes in that God and that Jesus, you either believe God completed his mission and got the proper Gospels in the Bible or you don't believe the religion.

Some half backed version where it's only what your human writer says is correct is beyond absurd until he provides reasonable evidence.


I don't believe the Gospel stories, they are a mythology. Bahai writings are not, it's just writings, from a man.





There is not one single verse in the entire NT that says that Jesus is coming back to earth. There are only verses that say His work was finished here and He is no more in the world. Christians have no explanations for these verses.
Clearly you don't study Christian apologetics because you think you know everything because a guy said so.

They do have explanations.



So what? That does not mean that Jesus was the Son of man who was coming back to earth.

Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus.

Jesus was called the Son of man, but He was never slated to be the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Son of Man is the title of a deity.

"Sixty-nine times in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus calls himself (the) "Son of man", a Greek expression which in its Aramaic (and Hebrew) background could be an oblique way of indicating the speaker's own self (e.g., Matt 8:20), or else simply mean "someone" or "a human being" (as in Ps 8:4, where it is a poetic variant ...)

Bahai is not a deity, you have to provide sufficient evidence to be a deity. In the folk tales Jesus did demonstrate he was a deity.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
God is not on the hook for anything at all since God is not accountable to humans for anything He does or does not do.
Case closed.
no, we are going to re-open that case for a second, and show why your answer is ridiculous.

Santa Clause is not on the hook for anything at all since Santa Clause is not accountable to humans for anything He does or does not do.

Superman is not on the hook for anything at all since Superman is not accountable to humans for anything He does or does not do.

Brahman is not on the hook for anything at all since Brahman is not accountable to humans for anything He does or does not do.

So that is just a bunch of meaningless words.


However, if that religion is true then God has revealed some aspects of himself.
John 3:16 – For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

Which means he cares if people believe him. Which means he's not stupid and he would know trying to continue a religion:
1) by admitting he got the first one all wrong, somehow an infinite God failed to put the correct 4 Gospels to the council of Nicea and later councils and they picked the wrong Gospels out of the 40 or so. Except the followers made a creed, one of the most important was that God gave them the correct information.
Now, on some guys word, nope, he got it wrong. Don;t say "people mis-interpreted it" because God is infinite, he knows everything that will ever happen and he is capable of getting his Bible correct. HE went to earth and did plenty of other things so he also can make sure the most important thing was done.


2)He would not mess up a revealed truth and that means right away Bahai is false. In order for Bahai to be correct you have to make Yahweh an incapable deity who cannot get a book together. The church fathers were told, by God, they had it correct. If you get to claim revelations then so do church fathers.
So if it's true, Bahai is not. If it's all a myth, Bahai is wrong.


And none of you have any evidence that any of it is true.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
God is not a human so God is not subject to having morals and ethics. Only humans have morals and ethics.

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.
Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Conflating God with humans is the fallacy of false equivalence.
Yeah......except it was GOD WHO GAVE THE 10 COMMANDMENTS.

AND THE 613 LAWS IN THE PENTATEUCH






Sorry, I am not a Christian so I don't believe in the anthropomorphisms of the Old Testament.
I do not even believe that most of the OT was inspired by God.
You shouldn't believe things without sufficient evidence to warrant the proposition. People do it all the time and si why we have so many religions, none having good evidence. Like Islam, Christianity, Bahai, Judaism and more


I do not care if you believe it. It's the truth. I don't care what anyone believes since it is not my responsibility.
And yet you are still trying to pass of this zero evidence movement that suspiciously looks exactly what it would look like if a prolific writer read the Bible and Quran and tried to make his own religion. You are trying awful hard, so it seems that you do care.





I will never run out of things to say but I get tired of repeating myself.
LOL, I hope you saw the contradiction here (probably not), it's funny.


You will never run out of things to say because you are repeating the same points over and over. I have yet to see logic, rationality, or any sense of empiricism or any methodology for separating truth from false claims. All I see is a willingness to believe despite none of those things being present.
Same as all the others.

The thing that shows my position is not flawed is that I have evidence.
I think it's safe to say you do not have evidence or you would have presented it.

Nothing you put forth is evidence for revelations, or even demonstrates that revelations are possible, or a God is possible.
A silly list of teachers requirements, his "life", vague prophecies which you ignore most of anyways.
That is not evidence and if another religion used those criteria you would not even blink. You already believed after reading the books and now accept terrible reasons as if they are amazing evidence.


also, he writes no philosophy, he gets a ton of science dead wrong and fills space with long run-on praise language.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Those religions needed them thousands of years ago but nobody needs them now.
Of course they do. 84% of the world believes in religion. 1/3 are Christian and believe in miracles, exorcisms, magic powers and so on.
billions are in Islam and also rely on many miraculous events to demonstrate Allah is really the author of the text.




If Baha'u'llah had chosen to use His supernatural powers people would have seen that He had them.
So funny. "he would have, he could have, but he didn't"


Yes and if Jesus in AU just CHOSE to do some miracle healings he would do so. But he choses not to, for his own reasons.




"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.
And Sai Baba, after Bahai, has millions of people swear he levitated, healed, created food and many other miracles.

People in religious furvor will tell tall tales.



None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them.
Like all the millions of claims, his are likely also false.


With this caveat in mind, it’s fun to look back on our history, and see how the Central Figures handled miracles."

To continue reading:
Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith
OMG, how many times are you going to link to a spectacle of "miracles" such as a prediction that sea travel was going to get safer?

Or he " revealed a measure of His glory and power to those who..." yeah, so says the Bahai propaganda?

So did Sai Baba, soon Jesus in AU will have miracle claims. The Cargo Cults, John From, he did miracles, John Karesh on the Davidean Branch estate had powers, all cult leaders are attested as having powers. Your standard of evidence is so incredibly low.

You cannot prove or make any reasonable case for these beliefs. The more you try the less it works.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That doesn't surprise me..
It doesn't lead me to believe that physical matter is all that is.
eg. when computer hardware is faulty, the software cannot run properly

..and computer software does not appear without reason, and purpose.
Yes we built computers. But guess what, computers didn't start out as individual electronic switches with just 2 options. We did. We started as single celled organisms who needed to make a choice to move away from another cell. Eventually, by natural selection and heredible genes, mutations made one that did that. And it survived and it's offspring that had it survived more. And on and on for billions of years until you get complex nervous systems.
Nature did it. Nature is unconscious.


Errr, no.
Psychology is not about physical matter. It is about human behaviour. It is part of reality.
Psychology is the study of behavior, BRAIN behavior. Nothing to do with a soul.

The idea of a soul goes back before psychology. To times of superstition. All weather was from deities. Illness was from deities, they argued about geo-centricism.
Tertullian was a huge influence, he hated science, thought it was heretical to know more about the world when we already had the Bible and God would just tell us more after death. If God wanted us to know more he would have told us in scripture. Scientific progress is evil and satanic.
These are the thinkers who influenced us into the Dark Ages. The soul is a remnant from this era.
Not even really in Judaism but taken from Pagan religion and used in the NT.


"According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life. "
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
When I first heard about the Baha'i Faith, I thought "progressive" revelation made sense. Now I don't think it makes any sense. We have people in one part of the world that have a religion that fits perfectly into their culture... almost like they made it up. And, as you have pointed out many times, people have made up and/or borrowed their Gods and religious beliefs. I think there's a good reason to believe that some religions weren't "revealed" by some divine messenger, but that the religious leaders made up the divine messenger, the religion and their Gods.
It doesn't make sense, it's supposed to be progressive yet we get bad science, no philosophy, and the text says nothing new at all. The entire middle ages of philosophy and even theology is better than his work?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Nature did it. Nature is unconscious..
Why? What motive did "nature" have to create everything we see?
Everything just happened because it could?

Psychology is the study of behavior, BRAIN behavior. Nothing to do with a soul.
..you think that, because you refuse to accept the possibility that behaviour is not
determined by other than physical structure.
You refuse the concept of "the self".

"According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life. "
Not far off..
Some of us believe, and some of us disbelieve (in a life hereafter) .. and nobody can know for certain
what becomes of us .. it can be no more than a belief, WHATEVER you believe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are so blind with cognitive bias you can't see what is right in front of your eyes.
I have absolutely no confirmation bias or cognitive bias. I just look at what actually happened.
What wonders in the heavens?
What sun turned to darkness?
When did the moon turn to blood?

NONE of those things happened. What actually happened is a man claimed revelations, nothing in the prophecy happened, zip.
ALL of this actually happened.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, Christ would return and the great day of God's wrath would come.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

These prophecies have already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
But worse, Acts is the most fictive of all books in the Bible. It copies the common narratives that were popular in that time.
That is irrelevant, since these same prophecies are in the Book of Revelation, and in Matthew and Mark.
As we can see, in order for Acts to be any kind of history, one would have to assume that all of these parallels are merely historical coincidences which is orders of magnitude less probable than that they are simply inventions that were intentionally created to reflect one another. It’s certainly possible for a couple of these coincidences to be historical, but it is nigh impossible for all of them to be historical.
I never said that Acts is in accord with history.
Either way, there isn’t any way to weed out any of the possible historical details from within this plethora of fictional constructions.
That is true for all of the New Testament, not only Acts.
Acts is fiction.
I do not doubt that Acts is fiction, especially these verses that Christians use to say that 'the same Jesus' will return "in like manner" as He left.
Christians believe that the body of Jesus was taken up into heaven in the clouds and that same body of Jesus will come back to earth in the clouds and land on the ground, feet first. It is laughable.

Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, the sun did not go out, the moon did not turn to blood.
No, not literally. How much of the Bible do you think is literal?
Is that right? So the 10 commandments are only good for the dispensation of Moses.
I did not say that. All of the 10 commandments are still valid for this age, except 4.

4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.

Back in the Old Testament, this meant they should not work on the Sabbath but they carried it too far and wouldn’t let people pick up something heavy. Jesus changed this and said we should keep the Sabbath day to worship, remember creation, and rest so we could serve God and others.
Everything Jesus said only was for the dispensation of Jesus and is now invalid?

Biggest bunch of baloney I have ever heard.
I did not say "Everything Jesus said only was for the dispensation of Jesus and is now invalid."

I said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That was only true during the Dispensation of Jesus, which is now over. The way to the Father is now through Baha'u'llah since we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

So the part in bold was what I was referring to as no longer being valid.
Feel free to demonstrate evidence that Jesus only meant for his time.
I never claimed that. The spiritual truths that Jesus revealed are eternal. That is why Jesus said:
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
Which would be a new Gospel.
No, only Jesus had a Gospel. A new revelation from God is not a Gospel.
The Gospels are already considered the word of God, so suggesting they are wrong is admitting the religion is false which destroys your position. The credd is that the Gospels in the form they were in at the Nicene and other councils, were the inspired word.
I am not suggesting the Gospels are wrong. I am suggesting that:
a) They are not what humanity needs in this age, and
b) They have been misinterpreted by Christians.

“Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets
What's unbelievable is that you are actually taken in by this list and actually think any of it is special in any way. It isn't, all religious leaders do all of it.
No religious leaders do not do anything on this list except Christian leaders, who Call to remembrance what Jesus said, Testify of Jesus, and Glorify Jesus.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
I believe the NT says Jesus did those things. So if you are in a religion that also believes in that God and that Jesus, you either believe God completed his mission and got the proper Gospels in the Bible or you don't believe the religion.
“To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

The False Prophets

No, I do not believe in the religion called Christianity. The Gospels might be correct, but the Gospel message has been misinterpreted by Christians, who corrupted the Gospel message.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171
Son of Man is the title of a deity.

"Sixty-nine times in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus calls himself (the) "Son of man", a Greek expression which in its Aramaic (and Hebrew) background could be an oblique way of indicating the speaker's own self (e.g., Matt 8:20), or else simply mean "someone" or "a human being" (as in Ps 8:4, where it is a poetic variant ...)

Bahai is not a deity, you have to provide sufficient evidence to be a deity. In the folk tales Jesus did demonstrate he was a deity.
No, Son of Man is not the title of a deity. It is a reference to a human being who is perfect.

“In the previously quoted passage Baháu'lláh appears to specifically affirm the title 'Son of Man (or 'Son of Humanity, as some modern Christian theologians prefer to translate it) as referring to Jesus. Baháu'lláh does not say what the term means, and Christian tradition has been fairly vague about the terms meaning. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings
 
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