Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[Trailblazer]

High level? HA.

"God does not want to make it so easy to recognize His Messenger in which case we would not need to use our free will to choose."

The lowest apologetic you think is high level? This apologetic makes God a low IQ deity looking only for gulliable people and is most definitely not anything an actual God would engage in.
A God would understand and respect logic and know the best minds use logic.
God would not want people "choosing with free will", the same method people use to join every cult, racial motivated hate group, oppressive political movement and so on. You reject the OT stories about Yahweh walking with people yet you keep the jealous "must use free will" God from the OT?
He would want us to know, through a logical, rational, empirical method that we are making a good choice because that is how the universe works. That is how humans have made progress in every area.
It also has nothing to do with us or free will. God would first, show he is God, and second he would not be uptight about our choice, freewill or not. He would not want to appear ambiguous, exactly the same as any cult with no evidence, he would know faith sucks, has been used to justify all movements good and evil.

I love that you think you know what God would want and what God would do. All that you wrote is just a personal opinion.
Nobody except the Messengers knows what God wants or what God does.

God did show that He is God, through the Messenger, who is a Manifestation of God.

Originally God actually showed up and walked with his followers on occasion. So you now have to rewrite the OT to even make that apologetic work.
You can do better than that.

Lol, 100 times lol. God does not 'walk' with anyone because God is not a man.
How pathetic.
I guess you can't do better than that, but the OT is anthropomorphism.

Uh, I don't care really, I'm trying to spread critical thinking and the like. I'm casting stones at cognitive bias and unwarranted beliefs.
By all means, do your day's work.

Likewise, I don't care. You only provide me with a platform for spreading the Baha'i beliefs.

Go right ahead but bear in mind that adding fuel to the fire only makes it burn brighter. The slanderer’s work has always been the cause of guiding men to a discovery of the truth.

No calumnies ever succeeded in putting out the Light of God. In spite of all the efforts of those who believe that religion is their own private property the Sun of Truth always shone forth from the horizon. Those who tried to put out the Light of God that shone through Moses, Jesus and Muhammad never succeeded in their efforts. Now history repeats itself with Baha'ullah.

"And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!." Abdul-Baha, Paris Talks

ON CALUMNY

That isn't what it means. It means he doesn't want you to use your intelligence and realize he's a fraud since he has NO information whatsoever out of the ordinary, and just accept that he does and believe he speaks for a God.

The Divine Purpose is that “the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean.” What that means in plain English is that God wants us to use our own innate intelligence to determine who the Messengers of God are. I used my innate intelligence and that is how I know that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Everything He wrote was out of the ordinary. You are just too blind to see it.

“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor.” Gleanings, p. 39

“Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure.” Gleanings, p. 106

MAnipulative. God 'could' have brought everyone together, but this religion will draw on those pure of spirit and detached of heart.

Yep, because God does not want everyone to believe. God only wants hose pure of spirit and detached of heart.

He's using manipulation tactics, as leaders in groups do.

Only a paranoid person would see that as manipulation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not in any other scripture, they are quite unearthly. Suddenly now that writing, papers, witnesses are a thing, suddenly in the new religion messengers are just like all men. That is very sus.

Those scriptures were written for past ages. They were written thousands of years ago when mankind needed unearthy stories in order to believe in God. Mankind has progressed beyond that so we don't need these stories anymore.

Not Jesus

Nope. Jesus appeared amongst men destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy.
Then men wrote fictitious stories about Jesus, like Him doing miracles and rising from the dead.

Not Abraham
Not Moses
Not Jacob who wrestled God
Not Ezekiel and His Zombie Army
Not Aaron and his magic staff
Not Samson
Not Elijah and Elisha who raised dead, called down fire
Not Joseph Smith who showed 12 friends magic plates of gold
Not Muhammad who Allah split the moon for

and many many more

Have fun with your fictitious stories in the Bible and elsewhere, just don't expect me to believe them.

The logical explanation is he's running a con, he knows he has no magic powers so he makes a reason as to why he seems like an ordinary man.

No, the logical explanation is that the Bible is full of a bunch of fictitious stories that some gullible people believe.
Magic powers, lol. As a Manifestation of God, Baha'ullah could do any miracle He pleased to do, and He did.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES

Every other God claim includes magic. Except new Jesus in AU. I'm sure he has a similar excuse.

God claim. Anyone can make a claim.

It's clear he had to rewrite the Bible to keep it true yet disregard all the stuff that would prove him wrong. So God in the 1800's just seems to think everyone is super gullible and is fine with saying all the appearances of Yahweh, all the magic (it's the entire OT) is B.S., but just assume that and you are fine. Oh, Joshua, the invasion of Jerico when Yahweh smashes them, all a lie. Noah, lie. All magic, lie.

Spare me all the Bible stories as I am not interested in stories.
People who believe in the Bible stories are the ones who are super gullible and super brainwashed. I thank God that I was not raised as a Christian.

Oh, and the NT, disregard the Jesus miracles, resurrection, getting rid of demons and all that, and you now have the correct picture. This just gets worse and worse.

You are right about that. This just gets worse and worse.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah he thinks humans are not animals and did not evolve, no big bang, cellular biology he got wrong, the ether, the quotes I gave in a recent post you ignored, I will find it if you keep using denial.

I told you I do not do science. I suggested you take this up with @Truthseeker since he knows about this subject of evolution.

Not even an issue?

No.

The evidence suggests he is definitely running a con. Or he thinks he's getting messages from God and isn't.

The evidence suggests He was a Messenger of God who got messages from God.

Yeah, didn't use that at all. I'm saying if God were real I believe he would be interested in unifying humanity if he's actually going to show up and give rules and messages.

God does care, and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah to unify humanity.

What we see now is indicative of people worshipping made up stories.

That's right, because people still believe in ancient religions that have made up stories in them.

Then he would not show up and give messages.

God did not show up. Baha'u'llah showed up. Just because God is transcendent that doesn't mean He does not care about humans.

He isn't independent of his creatures if he talks to them and gives sermons to write down.

God being independent of His creatures means He does not need anything from them.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

Is Bahai saying God did not show up and wrestle Jacob, ride his chariot over the people in Exodus and so on? If not they are lies according to Bahai.

Yes, because Baha'is do not believe that God EVER shows up on earth, period. These are stories men wrote, that is all they are.

It does because you say he shows up and has messengers. He also has messianic figures, the purpose of messianic figures is to save humanity.
Again with the circles, he doesn't care, but he interacts, gives laws, sermons, yes, in these religions God is a theism and cares.
You are making stuff up just to disagree.

God being transcendent does not mean God does not care about humanity.
The Essence of God never shows up on earth. Only the Messenger shows up. He is a Manifestation of God, but He is not God.

wow, really, please demonstrate where the infinite God of reality cannot show up as a human? Don't show me poetry some man wrote who had no evidence, just excuses.

I am not going to show you that. I will only say what I say to Christians. If God became a human God would no longer be God since God is spirit.
The only way that God ever shows up is when he manifests Himself as a human, in the Messengers.

Jesus Christ is God who was manifested in the flesh but the essence of God did not become flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Being manifested in the flesh is not the same as being incarnated in the flesh. The excerpt below from a longer article explains the difference between a Manifestation of God and an incarnation of God.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow, you have really been presented some bad reasoning. Someones character is not evidence they are getting revelations.

I did not say that His character ALONE is evidence. It is only PART of the evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Actually all you have is confirmation bias. It's true because it says so is all you have shown. No miracles, well it's says we don't need them.

100% confirmation bias.

That is what you have. 100% confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

Show me information messengers had that no humans had.

I already did that.

Did God tell him about penicillin? Nope. He knows nothing except the stuff he made up. He knows zero science, medical, cosmology, technology, not even philosophy. He also only knows the Bible, Quran and some Hindu scripture. He isn't read in Greek philosophy and nothing in philosophy of his time. Even Krishna had some good philosophy.

NONE of what you listed is what God sends Messengers for. Man doesn't need Messengers for science and philosophy.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

 

[Trailblazer]

When I say information that no one had, it means, (I'm shouting this very loudly), information that later, in the fr@#%%$# future turns out to be correct, like black holes, spacetime, special relativity, pennicillin, internet, computers on a phone, a phone, watch your cholesterol, steroids will make people get big muscles in sports, not random facts about God.

Forget it. God does not send Messengers to reveal that kind of information. He sends them to train humans in moral behavior.
Mankind can learn those things himself. A revelation from God is not necessary for these things that pertain to science and the human body.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That's true, but some people never change their minds about 'certain' religious beliefs.

They can only achieve that by closing their mind to everything new.
In reality even those people do hear new things and this has an effect on what they already know.
However they might never notice the change this causes to their beliefs.

On the other hand some people in exactly the same position suffer Doubts and a crisis of faith.
The ability to bury your head in the sand can come with dangers.

It is the tree that can not bend with the wind that falls in the storm

 

[CG Didymus]

Because it isn't good evidence. In fact, the same type of evidence is used in Christianity and Islam and not only do you ignore it you feel justified in saying they are wrong and they mis-interpreted their evidence.

I do believe that most all religions, probably all, have one important thing in common... For those that believe it, it sounds true and works for them. But for most believers/followers they get good at talking about their beliefs and are very poor at actually following them. And, for all the evidence they think they have, they disregard all the evidence against their guy being the Promised One.

So, what you're saying is exactly what happens for a "true" or those that think they are true Christians, they believe they know The Truth. For a Baha'i, they believe they know The Truth. But they both deny the other one has the truth.

Yet, the Baha'is say they believe in Christianity... that it is a true religion, given by God through a manifestation. But Baha'is don't believe in any one of the many denominations or sects of Christianity as having, practicing, or teaching The Truth. So, where is this Christianity that Baha'is believe in? I don't know if it ever existed other than in the Baha'i make-believe version.

But Baha'is do the same with other religions, especially Hinduism, Buddhism. True Hinduism and Buddhism are what Baha'is tell us true. Everything they disagree with becomes something that the followers misinterpreted. But I think it's probably even easier than that... people in each culture had a lot to do with inventing their own religions... and inventing their own messengers and prophets and Gods.

 

[joelr]

Well, there's your answer .. it is not something physical.

Right, it's a thought from our mind. But after death it goes away with the mind.

 

[joelr]

Jesus was a Comforter. Baha'u'llah was another Comforter.

That doesn't mean Jesus was talking about Bahai.

Jesus did not say HOW He would come, but it was not in a physical body since a physical body can be seen. Jesus came in spirit.​

People saw Jesus after his resurrection.

Different from what? The false Christian interpretation?
Try again. A different interpretation is not a rewrite.

You cannot demonstrate John is a false interpretation. You can only demonstrate John doesn't agree with a man who made some claims about John.

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to the disciples at Pentecost and that it lives inside of people and does all the things on the bulleted list below, but the verses say "he" which means it is a man who would do these things.

So you quote Christian beliefs when they suit you and claim the text is mistaken when they don't support your religion. More confirmation bias.
Jesus also did a variety of magic, miracles, healings, exorcisms, resurrect, obtain a spirit body. Which Bahai did none of.
The central tenants to the Jesus story you now have to re-write.

A Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16.
Only a Messenger of God who brought the Holy Spirit could do those things. These are the things that Baha'u'llah did. It is all in His Writings.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

The Jesus in AU is also doing everything on the bullet list. Any guru can make similar claims.
Pastors all do the same.

The text means exactly what it says.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Singling out words and reinterpreting things just to fit a book a guy wrote is unconvincing. Now we have a set of claims with no evidence and a reinterpretation also with no evidence.

The passage in John means Jesus is leaving and will return.

"The world," in these contexts, means the unbelieving and fallen human condition. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come (John 14:16), but noted that unbelievers would neither see nor know Him (John 14:17). Here again He notes that this is the end of His earthly presence, in a form visible even to those who do not believe (John 12:44–46). The disciples, on the other hand, will see Jesus again, and soon (John 16:16; 20:19).

I couldn't make this stuff up.

And yet you are.

There is no need to reinterpret any verses, only to interpret them correctly.
Not once did Jesus EVER say 'He' was going to return to earth.
Jesus said we would see the Son of man in the clouds but He was not referring to Himself.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

He was.
"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death" Mat 20:18, was it Bahai who was delivered to the priests and put to death? No, it was Jesus. The amount of tap dancing you have to do to make the new scripture work is a bunch of tired apologetics. No different than the attempts to erase all the contradictions in the Bible by fundamentalists.

 

[joelr]

'He said so' does not make anything true.

Same goes for the Bahai "revelations", in fact that is my point. No more than his character of facts he made up about God.

I said there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.
I did not say that there is no evidence. Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence.

That isn't evidence either. Evidence is something proportional to the claim. If I say I have a debit card in my pocket that is evidence I have a debit card. It's reasonable.
If I say I have a demon in my pocket that is not evidence. More is needed.

I don't think so either because halting all the infighting and religious wars is not God's job. It is a job for humans to do.

Then he's a negligent deity. He creates humans to have confirmation bias, to believe stories they are told and become so attached to them they can never accept they might not be true and will die rather than hear any reason why they are wrong. He also created humans to have logic and rational thought. Which leaves religious people who have attached to many different religions and are not leaving and rational thinkers who won't accept claims without evidence.
A God would know this and understand to unify all religions it would take a strong case.
Turning a blind eye to obvious problems and letting a God off the hook is just more confirmation bias.

God either exists or does not exist. That is black and white.
I said: "Logically, what we see is what God chose to do, if God exists, so the other option you can choose is that God does not exist."
I did not say that Messengers is what God chose to do so stop making a straw man. this is the second time you have done that.

I don't know why you have a mental block here.
You made 2 options:
1) if God exists, = what we see is what God chose to do

2) God does not exist

but there is more

3) God does exist - but what we see is not what God chose, it's what a man chose, we have free will to write books and claim they are revelations from God, but the claim is false.

That is true. Anything is possible and you get to choose what you believe since you have free will.

There you go, free will.

 

[joelr]

I love that you think you know what God would want and what God would do. All that you wrote is just a personal opinion.

Hmmm, maybe because in scripture the character and motivations of God are presented. Which you then pretend you don't know because your scriptures make zero sense. Or you re-write them and erase all mentions of God and what his motivations are.

Nobody except the Messengers knows what God wants or what God does.

Oh, it's a "personal opinion" when I say something about a God motivation, but when a guy from the 1800s writes a bunch of claims then he's writing the "words of God". Naw, Bahai scripture is all personal opinion as well. Until it can be demonstrated he is having revelations.

God did show that He is God, through the Messenger, who is a Manifestation of God.

Please refer back to the time where you posted the info on a circular argument.

This is about as bad as the fundamentalist apologetic "it's true because it says so".


You can base your life around terrible circular arguments, I'll stick to a rational methodology for beliefs.

Lol, 100 times lol. God does not 'walk' with anyone because God is not a man.
How pathetic.

Let's talk pathetic. A man claims revelations in 1800 and in order to even make it possible since he can show none of the supernatural happenings common with deities and revelations, he has his followers re-write the Bible. Erasing all of the appearances of God for one.

BTW, that is GOD. An infinite being, creator of reality, omnipresent, all-powerful, but suddenly cannot appear as a man. Yes, that is truly pathetic that you have to entertain such a ridiculous notion just to justify a long con.

I guess you can't do better than that, but the OT is anthropomorphism.

In actual reality, it's a myth. And the Bahai claims are likely just false claims.

Please demonstrate the Bahai claims are real, the OT is not literal and despite God being real, these OT claims are not. If your proof is "a guy said so in a book", you've got nothing.

Likewise, I don't care. You only provide me with a platform for spreading the Baha'i beliefs.

Then spread them, all that's happening here is the flaws, assumptions, confirmation bias, circular arguments, for believing the Bahai claims are true are being exposed over and over and over.

Go right ahead but bear in mind that adding fuel to the fire only makes it burn brighter. The slanderer’s work has always been the cause of guiding men to a discovery of the truth.

Well then let the slanderer do that. I however, am not slandering anything, I'm demonstrating a lack of logic, rational and empirical methodology in these claims. It is true that there are no good reasons to take these claims literal and this is a clear example.
I hope adding fuel to critical thinking makes it burn brighter.

No calumnies ever succeeded in putting out the Light of God. In spite of all the efforts of those who believe that religion is their own private property the Sun of Truth always shone forth from the horizon. Those who tried to put out the Light of God that shone through Moses, Jesus and Muhammad never succeeded in their efforts. Now history repeats itself with Baha'ullah.

Uh, actually Europe is largely secular, atheists, agnostics and very liberal religious people is at an all time high. In comparison with the Dark Ages where most were religious.
History is repeating itself also with Mormonism, Scientology, Jesus in AU.

"And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!." Abdul-Baha, Paris Talks

Has nothing to do with the light of a made up deity. It's about critical thinking and applying it to belief systems.


http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PT/pt-33.html

ON CALUMNY

The Divine Purpose is that “the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean.” What that means in plain English is that God wants us to use our own innate intelligence to determine who the Messengers of God are. I used my innate intelligence and that is how I know that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

I don't think you did because there is no evidence.

Everything He wrote was out of the ordinary. You are just too blind to see it.

There you go, it's the writing that convinced you. writing isn't evidence. What he writes isn't out of the ordinary, it's actually quite ordinary.
But, out of the ordinary isn't proof of revelations. Many authors were out of the ordinary.

I read his work and I find he takes a basic point and fills space with flowery praise literature and he really isn't saying anything of substance. HE doesn't teach anything about the universe, theology, philosophy, it's very generic concepts spiced up with fancy lines. That isn't proof of anything.

“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor.” Gleanings, p. 39

“Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure.” Gleanings, p. 106

Wisdom in the OT says all this but better.


http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-52.html.utf8?query=blind&action=highlight#gr3

Yep, because God does not want everyone to believe. God only wants hose pure of spirit and detached of heart.

First, you are pretending to know what God wants because we don't know if any of the books are written by any God.

But I am pure and detached just fine. I speak for belief in things justified and skepticism for things not justified.
You can try to make that the negative view but it only shows your position is flawed because you are still trying to ad-hom me in subtle ways.

Only a paranoid person would see that as manipulation.

See. Ad-hom.
But the text itself isn't the manipulation, it's the claim that a God is speaking to him. He probably made this stuff up using sources like Islam, Hinduism and Christianity and for whatever reason wanted to be a prophet.
I think Paul also did the same, and Joe Smith and others.

 

[joelr]

Those scriptures were written for past ages. They were written thousands of years ago when mankind needed unearthy stories in order to believe in God. Mankind has progressed beyond that so we don't need these stories anymore.

Is your excuse for why Bahai has zero abilities. Also you are 100% wrong because 1/3 of all religious belief is Christianity which still uses all of the stories, another almost 1/3 is Islam, same thing, Judaism, same, all sorts of supernatural stories, Mormonism, same, Zoroastrianism, same, Sikh, same.
Yeah, every religion still needs unearthly stories, big time.

The only reason Bahai doesn't have them is because if he tried to make the claims people would know it never happened.

Nope. Jesus appeared amongst men destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy.
Then men wrote fictitious stories about Jesus, like Him doing miracles and rising from the dead.

Opinion, no evidence. Your religion doesn't just require unevidenced belief but changing scripture to

Have fun with your fictitious stories in the Bible and elsewhere, just don't expect me to believe them.

I don't care what you believe. I'm showing the ridiculous lengths one has to go, on no evidence to make Bahai work. It does not work. I didn't even realize it was that bad?

You have no problem believing the Bahai fiction, this is just like Islam, Mormonism, JW, everyone else is wrong and your thing is the correct thing.

No, the logical explanation is that the Bible is full of a bunch of fictitious stories that some gullible people believe.
Magic powers, lol. As a Manifestation of God, Baha'ullah could do any miracle He pleased to do, and He did.

He did no miracles. The logical explanation is Bahai is like all the other claims of revelation. Made up.

again, I thought you were supposed to be speaking for Bahai? All you are doing is showing you use circular logic around and around. Just like all the new religions.
It's all been done. How do we know the Mormon Bible is true? Well, Joseph Smith! His words, deeds, he couldn't make it all up, has to be real.
Plus his miracles and the golden plates?

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

Well that's a problem in 2 ways.

1) you already said all the unearthly events were fiction. Now your prophet is saying they happened?


2)They still happened in a book, which has no proof. It does have proof it was borrowed stories and so on.





Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102

22: MIRACLES

God claim. Anyone can make a claim.

Spare me all the Bible stories as I am not interested in stories.
People who believe in the Bible stories are the ones who are super gullible and super brainwashed. I thank God that I was not raised as a Christian.

And anyone who believes Bahai claims of mundane writings and ZERO evidence is a revelation from God is also super gullible and brainwashed.

Yeah good thing you were not raised Christian but still got taken in by a story and a claim.

 

[joelr]

The evidence suggests He was a Messenger of God who got messages from God.

If that is true then so does Mormonism, Islam, Jesus in AU, JW and all cults who make the claim.

Like all others there is no good evidence.

God does care, and that is why God sent Baha'u'llah to unify humanity.

If he cares he would have demonstrated Bahai was real. Not let him speak on incorrect science, no future knowledge, nothing.
Also you cannot demonstrate any God sent anything.

That's right, because people still believe in ancient religions that have made up stories in them.

And some believe new claims in Bahai, Mormonism, Jesus in Au and others.

God did not show up. Baha'u'llah showed up. Just because God is transcendent that doesn't mean He does not care about humans.

God being independent of His creatures means He does not need anything from them.

speculation. No proof of God anywhere here. So far your best proof is "he said it's true" and "the messenger s life," which is not proof of anything.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

which he copied from the Quran:
Allah is altogether Independent of (His) creatures. Yusuf Ali: And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation. Shakir: And whoever strives hard, he strives only for his own soul; most surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above (need of) the worlds.

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

Standard Islamic theology

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

taken from Aquinas

Nothing existed before God, and God needs absolutely nothing to exist in order to prove His divine nature. The Creator does not need the Creation for anything. God is without need completely

Yes, because Baha'is do not believe that God EVER shows up on earth, period. These are stories men wrote, that is all they are.

but they have no evidence.

God being transcendent does not mean God does not care about humanity.
The Essence of God never shows up on earth. Only the Messenger shows up. He is a Manifestation of God, but He is not God.

Again, the OT is wrong in order to make this correct. Not likely true.

I am not going to show you that. I will only say what I say to Christians. If God became a human God would no longer be God since God is spirit.
The only way that God ever shows up is when he manifests Himself as a human, in the Messengers.

Prove God is only spirit and has limitations. Oh you can't? Ok then, I'm getting the picture. Claims.

Jesus Christ is God who was manifested in the flesh but the essence of God did not become flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Being manifested in the flesh is not the same as being incarnated in the flesh. The excerpt below from a longer article explains the difference between a Manifestation of God and an incarnation of God.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

That's another fail. Bahai apologetics are as bad as any others.

John says Jesus is God and Mark doesn't for the real world reason, established by the critical-historical method, because John wanted Jesus to be God and Mark did not use that theology.

Of course Bahai doesn;t know that because the field hasn't been widely published in the 1800s.
That "manifested/incarnated" nonsense is such a tap-dance to make Bahai work in context. Notice they have no sources to draw from here because they are pulling it out of their ear.

 

[joelr]

I did not say that His character ALONE is evidence. It is only PART of the evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self.

LOL, his self is evidence, LOL. Well, so is Jesus in AU then. Mormons say this as well, as does Islam.
It's not even a claim, it's pure nonsense.

Next to this testimony is His Revelation.

Which are not good, fail at science class, no philosophy, annoyingly long flowery run-on sentences and I learn nothing new. Everything about God is already in older text.

For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth.

I didn't fail to recognize anything. I clearly can see this is average work and is not revelations.

This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

his tender mercy? Wow, you folks will buy any apologetics I feel. What else? His pants size?



http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-52.html.utf8?query=proof&action=highlight#gr2

That is what you have. 100% confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

I know what it is, but thanks for the description because it describes your reasoning exactly in this entire exchange.


If I use it please describe with an example.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I already did that.

Not arbitrary information, something later confirmed that we didn't know at the time.

Like instructions to make penecillin.

NONE of what you listed is what God sends Messengers for. Man doesn't need Messengers for science and philosophy.

Then why do they talk so much about science? They get it all wrong but they talk about it a lot. Evolution, ether, cells, humans and animals.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

Epictetus says this far far better.

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

Funny, in the NT since it was written many decades later and people believed in supernatural events Jesus was credited with all these magical powers.
Now they have to find a new way to convince people. "investigate his life"???? No, none of those things mean someone is getting revelations.
In fact Paul got revelations and was a bad person who persecuted Christians.
The things described above fit millions of people in the world and is not proof. Only to those employing massive confirmation bias and already believe and will buy into any explanation.

 

[joelr]

Forget it. God does not send Messengers to reveal that kind of information. He sends them to train humans in moral behavior.
Mankind can learn those things himself. A revelation from God is not necessary for these things that pertain to science and the human body.

1) Then why does he teach almost entirely the same information about God?

2) That information isn't the purpose of the messenger, it's so God can demonstrate he is actually giving messages. All religions came with strong proofs. This "look at his life" is pure nonsense. No reason to buy into this.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

Yeah, you don't need other proofs if you buy into really suspect claims and are ready to believe anything based on "he said so".

 

[joelr]

I do believe that most all religions, probably all, have one important thing in common... For those that believe it, it sounds true and works for them. But for most believers/followers they get good at talking about their beliefs and are very poor at actually following them. And, for all the evidence they think they have, they disregard all the evidence against their guy being the Promised One.

So, what you're saying is exactly what happens for a "true" or those that think they are true Christians, they believe they know The Truth. For a Baha'i, they believe they know The Truth. But they both deny the other one has the truth.

Yet, the Baha'is say they believe in Christianity... that it is a true religion, given by God through a manifestation. But Baha'is don't believe in any one of the many denominations or sects of Christianity as having, practicing, or teaching The Truth. So, where is this Christianity that Baha'is believe in? I don't know if it ever existed other than in the Baha'i make-believe version.

But Baha'is do the same with other religions, especially Hinduism, Buddhism. True Hinduism and Buddhism are what Baha'is tell us true. Everything they disagree with becomes something that the followers misinterpreted. But I think it's probably even easier than that... people in each culture had a lot to do with inventing their own religions... and inventing their own messengers and prophets and Gods.

Right, it seems the Bahai have to disregard all the Bible magical, supernatural stuff as fiction but somehow keep the religion as true. So that way it matches their scripture. Which is based on completely no evidence at all, just a claim that his work is a revelation.
They seem to want to go in circles as well when arguing the evidence or lack of evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Right, it's a thought from our mind. But after death it goes away with the mind.

That is your belief..
However, I find myself conscious and aware now, and have no good reason to think
that it cannot happen again after death.
i.e. the physical body (hardware) is not all that is meaningful

I might find myself in a new body somewhere, for example.

 

[Muffled]

Belief in God is the root cause of ignorance, belief in fake messengers and denial of facts. Why should I retain it? just because some ignorant people claimed so centuries ago.

I believe that statement is unsupportable.

I believe God does not cause those things. Those things most likely exist because there is knowledge of God that can be mismanaged.

I believe you should retain it because it is the reality.

I believe an assessment of ignorance must have evidence. It is not the person who says he knows something that is ignorant but the person who denies the possibility that it is known who is ignorant.

 

[Muffled]

And each religion can say the same thing. Each thinks that we're throwing out their "baby". But why does the bathtub look like there's nothing there but dirty water?

I believe the syndrome is blindness or denial of reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't mean Jesus was talking about Bahai.

Jesus was talking about the man who the Father would send, whoever that would be.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

People saw Jesus after his resurrection.

Only according to stories in the Bible.

You cannot demonstrate John is a false interpretation. You can only demonstrate John doesn't agree with a man who made some claims about John.

John is not an interpretation, it is a NT verse that requires interpretation, in order to determine what the verse means.
There is a Christian interpretation and there is a Baha'i interpretation.

So you quote Christian beliefs when they suit you and claim the text is mistaken when they don't support your religion. More confirmation bias.
Jesus also did a variety of magic, miracles, healings, exorcisms, resurrect, obtain a spirit body. Which Bahai did none of.
The central tenants to the Jesus story you now have to re-write.

No, I just interpret the NT differently than Christians, and I don't believe all the stories about Jesus.
Apparently you believe the NT is an accurate depiction of Jesus. If you want to be a Christian why not just be a Christian?

The Jesus in AU is also doing everything on the bullet list. Any guru can make similar claims.
Pastors all do the same.

No, they are not doing 'everything' it says the Comforter/Spirit of truth would do. Only Baha'u'llah did all these things.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Singling out words and reinterpreting things just to fit a book a guy wrote is unconvincing. Now we have a set of claims with no evidence and a reinterpretation also with no evidence.

The passage in John means Jesus is leaving and will return.

"The world," in these contexts, means the unbelieving and fallen human condition. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come (John 14:16), but noted that unbelievers would neither see nor know Him (John 14:17). Here again He notes that this is the end of His earthly presence, in a form visible even to those who do not believe (John 12:44–46). The disciples, on the other hand, will see Jesus again, and soon (John 16:16; 20:19).

That is the most pathetic interpretation I have ever seen in my entire life.
Christians cannot face the reality, that the same Jesus is never going to return to this world.
Christians are clueless as to what these verses mean, only Baha'is know.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

He was.

"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death" Mat 20:18, was it Bahai who was delivered to the priests and put to death? No, it was Jesus. The amount of tap dancing you have to do to make the new scripture work is a bunch of tired apologetics. No different than the attempts to erase all the contradictions in the Bible by fundamentalists.

Son of God is a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus but Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus.
37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

Jesus was called the Son of man, but He was never slated to be the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

To explain in brief, ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.