Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[Trailblazer]

Revelation is not about the future.

Then what do you think it is about?

End of an Age in Jewish terms meant the end of the world when a messiah comes. Bahai people clearly didn't have the luxury of Rabbi to tell him what the translations actually meant in proper context.

If the world was going to end what is a messiah needed for? No Jewish people I know believe that the world will end when the messiah comes. They believe the messiah will restore the Jewish people to their former position as the chosen ones.

He was saying this before the resurrectiuon. He meant he will. live in spirit and his disciples will know it. Who gave you these misinterpretations? Is 18th century Bahai trying to re-interpret Jewish meaning of their stories?

Nobody interpreted this for me. I interpreted it myself.

Below is my interpretation of these verses. Another Baha'i might interpret them differently.

John 14

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Since I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, that is why the world did not see him or know him back in Jesus' day.

However, the Holy Spirit, which is the Bounty of God, already dwelt in the disciples, since it came to them from Jesus.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

To me that verse means that Jesus was going to send another Comforter, as He promised.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

To me that verse means that Jesus was never coming back to this world, but Jesus, who was the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, would live in all those who had believed in Jesus.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

To me that verse means that on the day that the Christ Spirit returns in Baha'u'llah, Christians would be reminded of everything that Jesus said, just as Jesus said would happen.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

17:4 means the work on earth is at an end until the end times. When someone claims to be re-writing the Bible in 1800, you should be skeptical.

There is no need to rewrite the Bible or add onto it, as you are doing.
The verse does not say "the work on earth is at an end until the end times." That was YOUR addition.

The verse means what it says. Jesus finished the work that God gave Him to do, which was to glorify God on earth.
Since Jesus finished His work, that means that Jesus is not coming back to earth to do more work.

John 17 King James Version (KJV)

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Trailblazer]

At least the NT was written by actual trained writers and the text can be broken down and shown to use many high level literary devices and creative use of older stories. As well as a brilliant combination of Judaism, Hellenism and Persian myth.

The salient point is that the New Testament was written by fallible men, NOT by Jesus.

Anyone can write a book that is a literary masterpiece, but that doesn't mean it came from God.
There is no reason to believe all these men were inspired by the Holy Spirit. That is what is a stretch.

 

[Trailblazer]

Uh, you didn't refute it, you just presented it again, as evidence of miracles. It's no different than the scriptures, anecdotal stories. In one he predicts sea travel would get safer. Wow, what a prediction? What a miracle?

I did refute what you said.
You said: "With Baha'i, there are no miracles and things of this sort."
There were miracles in the Baha'i Faith: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

Yes, it's a claim. He gained God-understanding, yet he still gets all science wrong, knows no information about any subject more than what was known at the time. And still isn't a great writer but a space filler.

The claim was that "the All-Glorious taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing."

I will not weigh in on scientific subjects since that is not an area I am familiar with.
I suggest you tag some of the other Baha'is such as @Truthseeker or @TransmutingSoul.

I never said he ripped verse off. He is a human author and he sounds like it. "Lo for almighty God is the most supreme and high being, LO, we must move in his divine grace and follow his majestic wisdom......."
Human, man, writing about God, making false claims.

I never read anything where Baha'u'llah says that. Please cite the reference for what you are claiming he said.

You do not know that:
1) he was only a human man,
2) That he was making false claims.

You only believe that.

And he was writing before we knew about the big bang so he got that wrong.

Baha'u'llah did not get anything wrong. The Big Bang is only a theory, it has never been proven.

I'm not interested in a sermon by a strange writer, do you have evidence he speaks to a God? I already know he writes too many words. I don't buy what he is selling because I don't believe things without proper evidence.

And you are posting this IN RESPONSE to me saying you haven't demonstrated the universe was created or even that a God exists?
Your response is to post poetry from some guy? (hint, that isn't proof)

Do you read anything I write? I already told you that there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. I told you more than once.

Right, so even though we now have Christians and Muslims and Hindu, who all believe their scripture which is clear that their deities did many miracles, shut out the sun, rose people from the dead, destroyed entire cities, and so on......this time we get a bunch of writing. No supernatural powers, fights with sea monsters, mass healings, defeats of death, nothing. And an all-powerful God is supposed to think that thats a good idea and will convince all the religious people to convert?

It sounds like you are projecting what you think God should care about onto God....
I do not know what God thinks but there is no reason to think God cares about people converting since God needs nothing from humans.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

Yeah but that isn't the only option. The most likely option is, it's a claim, it's not messages from God just because he "says so". This isn't "what God chose", it's a false claim.

If you are not going to respond to what I write what is the point of me writing it?

I wrote: Again, "Logically, what we see is what God chose to do, if God exists, so the other option you can choose is that God does not exist."
God either exists or does not exist. That is black and white.

You deflected and started talking about Messengers of God again.
I did not say anything about Messengers of God, or that is what God chose to do. That is what "I believe" but I am not making a claim.

God either exists or does not exist. That is black and white. This has nothing to do with Messengers of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regarding Baha'u'llah's claim to be a Messenger of God, it's not messages from God just because he "says so".
I never said that was the evidence. It would be ridiculous for me to believe His claim just because "he said so."

Regarding Baha'u'llah's claim to be a Messenger of God:

It is not a false claim unless you can prove it is a false claim.
It may or may not be a false claim. It may or may not be a true claim.

Nobody can disprove the 2nd coming of Jesus in AU, right now.

That's right, so Christians can just continue BELIEVING that Jesus is going to return, forever, and most of them will. How very sad.

However, just like Bahai, he has no evidence. Nothing. Which means it's likely false. Like most of these claims, probably all of them. You can believe what you like, I choose to believe things proportional to the evidence.

The Baha'i Faith has evidence. You just don't like the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you really want to use logic, how about this:

A man writing long winded praise and claiming to be a messenger of God with literally NO PROOF is not actually a God messenger.

You are assuming that if a man was a Messenger of God there would be proof, but there is no logical reason to assume that.
Is there any proof that Moses or Jesus were Messengers of God? No, because God doesn't want us to have proof, only evidence.

If you really want to use logic, how about this: I explained why there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, and it was a drop dead logical explanation. Of course you either ignore or do not understand what I explained. Maybe it is to high level for you?

Below is the explanation again. If you do not respond to this that means you either don't understand it or you cannot discuss it like a grown-up.
Instead, all you know how to do is cast stones at Baha'u'llah. Do you think that bothers me? Quite the contrary. For me it is all in a day's work.

The Manifestations of God have two stations, their spiritual station and their human station:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67​

The second station, the spiritual station, is not revealed to the eyes of men, and the reason it is not revealed is explained below:

"... While the Manifestations of God all shine with the splendours of God's Revelation, they can reveal themselves in only two ways. The first is to appear in their naked glory. Should this happen, all human beings would witness their awesome power, would bow before their majesty and would submit their will entirely to God's Viceregent on earth. People would thus become puppets of God and lose their free will; all would follow the path of truth, not by their own volition but by capitulating to the irresistible power of the Manifestation of God………​

​

The only other way that the Manifestations of God can reveal themselves, which ensures the preservation of human free will, is to conceal their divine power behind the veil of human characteristics. Although they possess majestic, divine qualities, it is, according to Bahá’u’lláh, against the law of God for them to reveal these to the generality of mankind. Through this method people can exercise their free will to accept or to reject the Message of God, to live in accordance with His teachings or to disobey Him."​

​

Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 17​

As noted in the passage below, the Divine Purpose is that “the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean.” What that means in plain English is that God wants us to use our own innate intelligence to determine who the Manifestations of God are.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71​

The reason why the Manifestations of God always appear as ordinary humans, and sometimes their actions seemed very flawed and very human is in accordance with the Divine Purpose.

“That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose.” Gleanings, p. 71​

The most ironic thing ever said, by anyone.

There is nothing ironic about it. What I said is drop dead logical.
Books that say that God demonstrated that He is God are just books written by men. They are not proof of anything.

Those are stories, but Bahai believes they are real. Or does he believe ALL of the actual appearances of Yahweh are fake in order to justify the fact that he knows no Gods will be showing up during his time.

I said: "If you believe that God demonstrated he is God in the OT, NT and Mormon Bible, why don't YOU believe God exists?"

I cannot speak for all the Baha'is, but I do not believe those stories were real. God never shows up on earth so that means that ALL of the actual appearances of Yahweh in the Old Testament demonstrate that the Old Testament is wrong.

It is not a Baha'i teaching that God will EVER be showing up on earth, so if any Baha'is believe that they don't know the Baha'i Writings.

So many red flags here it's insane.

The only red flags are in the Bible, too many red flags to even count.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, I have seen no evidence to believe these stories are what they claim and I see many actual mistakes about science and the Bible.

The mistakes about science are in the Bible.
There are no mistakes about the Bible in the Baha'i Writings.

I think you have been fooled by sub-par evidence.

You are free to believe anything you want to believe, as am I. It doesn't affect me in any way.

No, that doesn't make sense. Use our free will? To be fooled by what looks like a con-man?

You can be fooled by con men, but Baha'u'llah is not one of them.

No Muslims are converting, no Christains are converting on any type of mass scale.

Of course no Muslims are converting, and no Christians are converting on any type of mass scale, but that has nothing to do with whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not. That is a fallacious argument.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

You actually think God would want all this division? No.

It doesn't matter to God if there is division since God is transcendent.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

He had to claim all of the original appearances by God were lies? God rode a chariot over his people, did many miracles, helped defeat enemies,

Baha'u'llah did not say those were lies.
He only said what was the truth: God does not show up on earth, except in the form of a man who is a Manifestation of God (Messenger).

Doesn't want to make it easy? So he finds religious conflict appealing?

It doesn't matter to God if there is religious conflict since God is transcendent.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

He only shows up in the OT? OR, is it just that a guy is stretching the truth. I think it's that a guy is telling tales.

That is a guy telling tales, but I have no idea why he told them.

Yeah, of course he would write that. Yet he cannot use any of that power, even a little? Of course he's writing that. "Hey guys, I'm really a messenger, and yes I have divine powers, I could show you, but I can't........." The oldest con in the book?

Twice I already explained why Messengers of God do not reveal their divine powers. I am not going to explain it again.

In the OT Yahweh revealed his divine body MANY times, he didn't worry about that?
That, is a con.

God does not worry about that since God is transcendent. God gave man free will to choose what to believe. If they want to believe nonsense, that is their own choice.

Divine body? That is an oxymoron since God is not a man with a body. God is spirit, so God cannot 'show up' on earth. Just one more reason we know that the Old Testament is wrong.

And Bahai only has books with claims? You literally just admitted it in the last post. right above?

No, I never said that books with claims is the ONLY thing the Baha'i Faith has for evidence.

Show it then?
Messengers are not evidence, they are people making claims.
You may be so deep into the justification you don't even realize you are constantly talking in circles.

Messengers are the evidence for God because that is what God provides as evidence.
It is not an either/or. That is illogical.
Messengers are also people making claims. The way we can know if their claims are true is by looking at the evidence.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

Uh, nope. No one is converting, apparently they still do need that type thing.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Fewer people are converting to Christianity than are converting to the Baha'i Faith since people no longer need the kind of thing that is in the Bible.

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Statistics from: Growth of religion

There you go, none of you have proof. It's wishful confirmation bias.

We have no proof, but we also have no confirmation bias.
It is not either/or. I suggest you take a course in logic.

The conditions in Revelation did not happen. Read it.

If hey have not happened yet, they will happen during this age. There is no reason to think that everything in Revelation will happen immediately after Christ returns.

great, please demonstrate we have a soul, and when did it start in the hominid evolution? Also Bahai clearly didn't know about this evolution because it had not been discovered yet and he wasn't speaking to any Gods.

That we have a soul cannot be demonstrated since the soul is immaterial, and the soul is a mystery.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159​

Somewhere during the course of evolution man became man and at that time man got a soul.

Then why do messengers get information and tell other people? And why is there no information any human didn't already have?

I was talking about psychic mediums, not Messengers:
"That is not the way you can know if the medium made contact. the only way you could know is if something came through the medium that only you and the departed spirit know. The medium should never be told this piece of information. The medium is only a mediator between the spirit world and this world."

However, Messengers did have information that no humans already had.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..great, please demonstrate we have a soul..

That is not hard to do..

Do you like good music? Yea---h..
Sweet soul music, Yeah, yeah.

Well .. I've got soul, but I don't know about you.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the biggest bunch of _ _ I have ever seen.

I cannot believe you entered this as absolute proof.

I suggest you try to stay on task.

I said: Baha'u'llah revealed information about God that a regular person could not, since there would be no way for a regular person to get that information.​

You said: Please, right now, give me a link to that information.​

So what I posted was a link to Gleanings, which contains information about God that a regular person could not have.

I did not enter this as absolute proof. Are you mentally slow, or do you simply ignore what I write?

Again, there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, only evidence.

The only page that even deals with proof of revelation, is one big bag of wind, I will write what he's saying in ( ).

Amongst the proofs demonstrating the truth of this Revelation is this, that in every age and Dispensation, whenever the invisible Essence was revealed in the person of His Manifestation, certain souls, obscure and detached from all worldly entanglements, would seek illumination from the Sun of Prophethood and Moon of Divine guidance, and would attain unto the Divine Presence. For this reason, the divines of the age and those possessed of wealth, would scorn and scoff at these people. Even as He hath revealed concerning them that erred: “Then said the chiefs of His people who believed not, ‘We see in Thee but a man like ourselves; and we see not any who have followed Thee except our meanest ones of hasty judgment, nor see we any excellence in you above ourselves: nay, we deem you liars.’” They caviled at those holy Manifestations, and protested saying: “None hath followed you except the abject amongst us, those who are worthy of 180 no attention.” Their aim was to show that no one amongst the learned, the wealthy, and the renowned believed in them. By this and similar proofs they sought to demonstrate the falsity of Him that speaketh naught but the truth.

Baha'u'llah might have called that one of the proofs, but it is not proof, it is only evidence.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Your belief in something, and your motivation has no bearing on the actual truthfullness of it.
However when anyone believes a doctrine that allows for life after death I suspect there is a motivation of a relief of the fear of death and the unknown. While reasonable, I would rather know true things.

Of course my belief in something, and my motivation for believing has no bearing on the actual truthfullness of it.
Likewise, your disbelief in something, and your motivation for disbelieving has no bearing on the actual falseness of it.

You need not assume that everyone fears death and that everyone wants to live forever. As far as fear of the unknown is concerned, the afterlife is unknown, so I am afraid of it. Moreover, I have no desire to live forever in a spiritual dimension I know nothing about.

 

[joelr]

Then what do you think it is about?

"Revelation is misread as future history. War, famine, pestilence and death are already loosed on Earth. Revelation envisions a world where they will be eliminated."

This Pastor/historian does a lecture on Revelation:

Apocalypses and Apocalypticism

33:50
Comes into Judaism from Persian religion. Messianic savior myths also come from Persia. Prior to this there also is no cosmic devil. This comes from Zoroastrianism. Physical resurrection of people and a new world at the end of times battle comes into Judaism from Zoroastrianism.



37:00 during the 2nd Temple Period God becomes more cosmic in scope, not walking around wrestling with people. Visions are attributed to angels and ancient authorities - Daniel, Enoch, Adam…


Daniel


43:53 Daniel attributed to a prophet of the Babylonian period but actually written between 167 and 164 BC. Daniels visions from Gabriel are very specific and accurate up through the year 167 BC and then fail dramatically after 164 BC. Which illustrates the date.



Daniel believes they are at the end times and are totally wrong.


Ezekiel’s prediction of the worlds end failed so the author of Daniel reinterpreted the timeframe so the end would occur in his day.



Danilel’s prediction failed so John the Revelator reinterpreted the timeframe so the world would end in his day. His failure resulted in ongoing recalculations.


Apocalyptic authors suffered from lack of perspective, falsely believing themselves to have been living at the end times.


Their readers share the same lack of perspective, falsely imagining that the text refer to the readers time (when they actually referred to the authors time)

For centuries people have been reading Revelation as future history. Often convinced the signs point to their own time. This is called temporal narcissism.


1:03:40


Joachim of Fiore used Revelation to predict the world would end 1260 AD.



1:08:03 Newton spent equal time studying the Bible to predict the future and inventing calculus. His future calculations were all wrong.


In Revelation - no mention of the Rapture, no anti-Christ, not a message of fear but hope



Revelation is misread as future history. War, famine, pestilence and death are already loosed on Earth. Revelation envisions a world where they will be eliminated.

If the world was going to end what is a messiah needed for? No Jewish people I know believe that the world will end when the messiah comes. They believe the messiah will restore the Jewish people to their former position as the chosen ones.

Because the original movement was Apocalypticism, which ended up in Revelations as a Christian version. For Jewish people the 2nd coming is an age of peace. Christians adopted the apocalyptic myths.

Nobody interpreted this for me. I interpreted it myself.

Well that isn't what it originally meant

Below is my interpretation of these verses. Another Baha'i might interpret them differently.

John 14

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Since I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, that is why the world did not see him or know him back in Jesus' day.

However, the Holy Spirit, which is the Bounty of God, already dwelt in the disciples, since it came to them from Jesus.

Why are you telling me this?

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

To me that verse means that Jesus was going to send another Comforter, as He promised.

Generally the word "I" would mean Jesus, but whatever.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

To me that verse means that Jesus was never coming back to this world, but Jesus, who was the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, would live in all those who had believed in Jesus.

You know these are stories all based on Mark, which is fiction?

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

To me that verse means that on the day that the Christ Spirit returns in Baha'u'llah, Christians would be reminded of everything that Jesus said, just as Jesus said would happen.

And that didn't happen to Christians at all.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is no need to rewrite the Bible or add onto it, as you are doing.

LOL!, that's hilarious. No need to rewrite the Bible as you post completely different interpretations of John. Effectively, rewriting the Bible?
Unbelievable.

The verse does not say "the work on earth is at an end until the end times." That was YOUR addition.

Speaking of "additions", wow.

The verse means what it says. Jesus finished the work that God gave Him to do, which was to glorify God on earth.
Since Jesus finished His work, that means that Jesus is not coming back to earth to do more work.

HA! So the text means what it says, except when it doesn't and is really talking about your new religion.
I couldn't make this stuff up.


Also, he said he would return, several times, but let me guess, you reinterpreted that. HA!!!

 

[joelr]

I did refute what you said.
You said: "With Baha'i, there are no miracles and things of this sort."
There were miracles in the Baha'i Faith: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

NO, you did not "refute it", you just posted a bunch of anecdotal claims. One "miracle" was he predicted safer sea travel, WOW, what a prediction, who would have known!

Mormons have anecdotal miracles involving Joe Smith, Islam has anecdotal miracles, Hindu have anecdotal miracles, Scientology probably has them as well.


https://bahai-library.com/gammage_famous_miracles

The claim was that "the All-Glorious taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing."

I will not weigh in on scientific subjects since that is not an area I am familiar with.
I suggest you tag some of the other Baha'is such as @Truthseeker or @TransmutingSoul.

Yeah, and Muhammad had a visit from an angel, so did Joseph Smith, and Jesus has returned in Australia. He siad so, so it must be true.

If one claims - ""the All-Glorious taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been." they had better come out with some pretty amazing stuff. Not incorrect science and no philosophy.
I already went over ALL of the science years ago in a similar thread, they weighed in. They had nothing to say. excuses, confirmation bias, ignore it as well.

Harvard did a study, facts do not change peoples minds when they hold a belief, even if the belief isn't supported by evidence. It's only when they are ready to take an honest look at their beliefs because they want to know what is actually true.

I never read anything where Baha'u'llah says that. Please cite the reference for what you are claiming he said.

That was a paraphrase, to demonstrate he's just using endless fancy descriptive words and saying very little.

You do not know that:
1) he was only a human man,
2) That he was making false claims.

I do not know that Jesus in Australia is only human and making false claims. I do know there is no evidence for anything supernatural, any God and people claiming revelations are extremely likely to be telling a lie. Especially when they claim the All-Glorious taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been....and they know NOTHING beyond what every other human knew at the time.
I mean, the fact that he said that makes it way worse for him.
So he may have knew about Penicillins but said nothing? So millions died until the 1900s? NO, he didn't know, he is probably making a false claim.

You only believe that.

I believe he is a fraud based on excellent evidence.

Baha'u'llah did not get anything wrong. The Big Bang is only a theory, it has never been proven.

The big bang has been proven. It was considered proven when the cosmic microwave background radiation matched the big bang prediction in the 80's. Then it was done in better detail, WMAP, "The Fingerprint of God", mapped the small differences in the background radiation, matching exactly what the big bang predicted.
Also the early universe looks like an early universe, quasars are active, complex elements have'nt formed yet in supernova. The universe is expanding and once was compact.
The universe is not eternal in that sense. He would have known that if he got a "God view". It's wrong. They did think it was eternal back then.
More evidence he was just going on human knowledge.

Do you read anything I write? I already told you that there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. I told you more than once.

Then why are you posting long excerpts of his writing as if it's evidence?

It sounds like you are projecting what you think God should care about onto God....

Uh, yeah, I know some religions want to dumb down thinking but yes, we should not give a free pass to charlatins who try to excuse weird absentee behavior from a deity by trying to make us feel bad for using logic.

Also, if Yahweh is real, he showed his character in the Bible and 100% would be doing the things I said he should.

I do not know what God thinks but there is no reason to think God cares about people converting since God needs nothing from humans.

And yet, he has messengers come every so many centuries to spread the message. So he cares, but not enough to halt all the infighting and religious wars caused by zero evidence and everyone relying on upbringing or some type of apologetics?
I don't think so.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

Well he's wrong here because I seek it. I'm just not resorting to confirmation bias. I seek it and I see that there is no God, just people making false claims.


http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-70.html.utf8?query=Cause&action=highlight#gr2

If you are not going to respond to what I write what is the point of me writing it?

I wrote: Again, "Logically, what we see is what God chose to do, if God exists, so the other option you can choose is that God does not exist."
God either exists or does not exist. That is black and white.

It isn't black and white. A God can still exist and this isn't what he chose to do. This could just be a guy making false claims.
Mormonism, Islam, also makes the same claims and you have no interest. So you really don't buy this type of evidence either. Maybe the writing convinced you and you give the evidence a pass?

You deflected and started talking about Messengers of God again.
I did not say anything about Messengers of God, or that is what God chose to do. That is what "I believe" but I am not making a claim.

God either exists or does not exist. That is black and white. This has nothing to do with Messengers of God.

God can exist and all religions can be a total mythology. God can exist and only Sikhs are correct.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regarding Baha'u'llah's claim to be a Messenger of God, it's not messages from God just because he "says so".
I never said that was the evidence. It would be ridiculous for me to believe His claim just because "he said so."

Regarding Baha'u'llah's claim to be a Messenger of God:

It is not a false claim unless you can prove it is a false claim.
It may or may not be a false claim. It may or may not be a true claim.

Yes and 2nd coming of Jesus in Australia may or may not be a false claim. But we have probabilities.
And David Hume:


Which is more likely - that a man should be used as a transmitter by God to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be ordered by God to do so?

That's right, so Christians can just continue BELIEVING that Jesus is going to return, forever, and most of them will. How very sad.

Well by the same logic it's sad that you buy into claims of a man getting revelations when he utterly failed to demonstrate he has any knowledge beyond what other people had access to at the time. All other religious tales at least involve super-powers. He has nothing supernatural or even philosophical, mathematical, scientific, that is sad.
People who buy the Jesus story at least can say he resurrected into a new demigod body and then ascended into space.

So if you are going to say it about others you have it coming as well.

The Baha'i Faith has evidence. You just don't like the evidence.

Jesus in AU has evidence, you just don't like it either.
He said he's Jesus.


How many times do I have to say....."reasonable evidence" to support a claim. Ten thousand fancy Adjectives to describe God is not reasonable evidence.
Its evidence he's a dramatic writer.

 

[joelr]

You are assuming that if a man was a Messenger of God there would be proof, but there is no logical reason to assume that.
Is there any proof that Moses or Jesus were Messengers of God? No, because God doesn't want us to have proof, only evidence.

If you but the stories in the Bible then YES OF COURSE THERE IS EVIDENCE?!? Moses walked with Yahweh?
Jesus rose from the dead?

But in real life, NO!!! They are all myths just like Zeus, Inanna, Romulus and Krishna.
Bahai speaks on them as if they are real, he also does not understand they are myths and is also making things up.

If you really want to use logic, how about this: I explained why there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, and it was a drop dead logical explanation. Of course you either ignore or do not understand what I explained. Maybe it is to high level for you?

High level? HA.

"God does not want to make it so easy to recognize His Messenger in which case we would not need to use our free will to choose."

The lowest apologetic you think is high level? This apologetic makes God a low IQ deity looking only for gulliable people and is most definitely not anything an actual God would engage in.
A God would understand and respect logic and know the best minds use logic.
God would not want people "choosing with free will", the same method people use to join every cult, racial motivated hate group, oppressive political movement and so on. You reject the OT stories about Yahweh walking with people yet you keep the jealous "must use free will" God from the OT?
He would want us to know, through a logical, rational, empirical method that we are making a good choice because that is how the universe works. That is how humans have made progress in every area.
It also has nothing to do with us or free will. God would first, show he is God, and second he would not be uptight about our choice, freewill or not. He would not want to appear ambiguous, exactly the same as any cult with no evidence, he would know faith sucks, has been used to justify all movements good and evil. The Spanish Inquisition was on faith. You think a God would stoop to that low?

All that is is an apologetic to justify why a person who claims contact with the GOD, has no actual information beyond every other person.
Or is nowhere to be found. So they had to come up with a fix. No God makes that claim.

Originally God actually showed up and walked with his followers on occasion. So you now have to rewrite the OT to even make that apologetic work.
Please don't put mindless apologetics designed to switch your thinking brain off as "high level". You can do better than that.

Below is the explanation again. If you do not respond to this that means you either don't understand it or you cannot discuss it like a grown-up.

Uh oh, ad-hom, someone i getting frustrated and now has to imply I'm a child. I would be frustrated also trying to justify this claim.

Instead, all you know how to do is cast stones at Baha'u'llah. Do you think that bothers me? Quite the contrary. For me it is all in a day's work.

Uh, I don't care really, I'm trying to spread critical thinking and the like. I'm casting stones at cognitive bias and unwarranted beliefs.
By all means, do your day's work.

The Manifestations of God have two stations, their spiritual station and their human station:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67​

Oh wow, wait, Baha'...... is saying this about himself? This!? Amd yet he knows NOTHING ABOUT THE UNIVERSE, medicine, the future, science, God, the multiverse, gravity, that he can say?????????? No way is he for real.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/G...ie|of|direct|intercourse&action=highlight#gr4

The second station, the spiritual station, is not revealed to the eyes of men, and the reason it is not revealed is explained below:

"... While the Manifestations of God all shine with the splendours of God's Revelation, they can reveal themselves in only two ways. The first is to appear in their naked glory. Should this happen, all human beings would witness their awesome power, would bow before their majesty and would submit their will entirely to God's Viceregent on earth. People would thus become puppets of God and lose their free will; all would follow the path of truth, not by their own volition but by capitulating to the irresistible power of the Manifestation of God………​

Right, so basically this is "yeah dude, if I showed you my REAL GOD POWER you would freak the heck out and just worship like a monk all day......so I can't show you, sorry, bummer for you....."

​

The only other way that the Manifestations of God can reveal themselves, which ensures the preservation of human free will, is to conceal their divine power behind the veil of human characteristics. Although they possess majestic, divine qualities, it is, according to Bahá’u’lláh, against the law of God for them to reveal these to the generality of mankind. Through this method people can exercise their free will to accept or to reject the Message of God, to live in accordance with His teachings or to disobey Him."​

​

Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 17​

Doesn't say anywhere about knowing a little science and math, maybe some medical advise so he's not looking completely like a fraud? No, doesn't say that does it?
Oh, but he DOES possess magic power, he cannot show it. Uh Huh. Don't look behind that curtain Dorothy.
Hmmm, yet Jesus was able to do magic. Krishna was able. Muhammad and his followers witnessed a bunch of magic.


Has it dawned on you all religions, who cannot prove their claims, make this same statement in one way or another. Mormonism:

The Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word of God! 2 Nephi 27:14

Only those who belong to the devil will dislike the Book of Mormon.

No man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil. 2 Nephi 33:5

As noted in the passage below, the Divine Purpose is that “the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean.” What that means in plain English is that God wants us to use our own innate intelligence to determine who the Manifestations of God are.

That isn't what it means. It means he doesn't want you to use your intelligence and realize he's a fraud since he has NO information whatsoever out of the ordinary, and just accept that he does and believe he speaks for a God.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71​

MAnipulative. God 'could' have brought everyone together, but this religion will draw on those pure of spirit and detached of heart.
So people read this and say "hey, I'm pure of spirit and detached of heart, I hear you BaB, it's ME you speak to".

He's using manipulation tactics, as leaders in groups do.

 

[joelr]

The reason why the Manifestations of God always appear as ordinary humans, and sometimes their actions seemed very flawed and very human is in accordance with the Divine Purpose.

“That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose.” Gleanings, p. 71​

Not in any other scripture, they are quite unearthly. Suddenly now that writing, papers, witnesses are a thing, suddenly in the new religion messengers are just like all men. That is very sus.






Not Abraham


Not Moses


Not Jesus


Not Jacob who wrestled God


Not Ezekiel and His Zombie Army


Not Aaron and his magic staff


Not Samson


Not Elijah and Elisha who raised dead, called down fire


Not Joseph Smith who showed 12 friends magic plates of gold


Not Muhammad who Allah split the moon for


and many many more

There is nothing ironic about it. What I said is drop dead logical.

The logical explanation is he's running a con, he knows he has no magic powers so he makes a reason as to why he seems like an ordinary man.

Every other God claim includes magic. Except new Jesus in AU. I'm sure he has a similar excuse.

The logic is deductive, and based on probabilities - no one has ever been shown to get revelations, most supernatural claims turn out to be a hoax or the person is deluded, when people make excuses for why they cannot show you the proof it's always been a work rather than an actual excuse, no God has been demonstrated, the religions he is using look like historical fiction, the need to majorly revise older scripture to fit suspicious circumstances is almost certainly a way to dodge having to show magic abilities (scriptures are actually true but true in the new way I'm going to tell you about...not the way they are written), and so on....as if that isn't already way too much.

Books that say that God demonstrated that He is God are just books written by men. They are not proof of anything.

And those quotes you just gave, written by men most likely. Not proof of any God. Pretty solid evidence he's not being truthful.


"I would, but you would freak out, so..."

I said: "If you believe that God demonstrated he is God in the OT, NT and Mormon Bible, why don't YOU believe God exists?"

I believe in the stories God did that. But Bahai believes the stories are true. Seems he is doing a lot of rewriting scripture to make his theology work. Big red flag.

I cannot speak for all the Baha'is, but I do not believe those stories were real. God never shows up on earth so that means that ALL of the actual appearances of Yahweh in the Old Testament demonstrate that the Old Testament is wrong.

Ah, and his followers are ALSO rewriting scripture so the religion can be real. This is confirmation bias at work.

It is not a Baha'i teaching that God will EVER be showing up on earth, so if any Baha'is believe that they don't know the Baha'i Writings.

It's clear he had to rewrite the Bible to keep it true yet disregard all the stuff that would prove him wrong. So God in the 1800's just seems to think everyone is super gullible and is fine with saying all the appearances of Yahweh, all the magic (it's the entire OT) is B.S., but just assume that and you are fine. Oh, Joshua, the invasion of Jerico when Yahweh smashes them, all a lie. Noah, lie. All magic, lie.


Oh, and the NT, disregard the Jesus miracles, resurrection, getting rid of demons and all that, and you now have the correct picture. This just gets worse and worse.

The only red flags are in the Bible, too many red flags to even count.

But none in your religion. Like every other religion, you have the true words of God. Yawn. But no good evidence as usual.

 

[joelr]

The mistakes about science are in the Bible.

yes.

There are no mistakes about the Bible in the Baha'i Writings.

Yeah he thinks humans are not animals and did not evolve, no big bang, cellular biology he got wrong, the ether, the quotes I gave in a recent post you ignored, I will find it if you keep using denial.

You are free to believe anything you want to believe, as am I. It doesn't affect me in any way.

Not even an issue?

You can be fooled by con men, but Baha'u'llah is not one of them.

The evidence suggests he is definitely running a con. Or he thinks he's getting messages from God and isn't.

Of course no Muslims are converting, and no Christians are converting on any type of mass scale, but that has nothing to do with whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not. That is a fallacious argument.

It would be if I used the argument to show the movement isn't true.
I didn't. I used it to show if God were real he doesn't care about all the division, which would be weird because everyone thinks they are super correct and others are heretical.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Yeah, didn't use that at all. I'm saying if God were real I believe he would be interested in unifying humanity if he's actually going to show up and give rules and messages.
What we see now is indicative of people worshipping made up stories.

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

It doesn't matter to God if there is division since God is transcendent.

Then he would not show up and give messages.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

He isn't independent of his creatures if he talks to them and gives sermons to write down.

You are going in circles. Should I post the Wiki fallacy page on circular arguments for you?




Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 166-167

Baha'u'llah did not say those were lies.
He only said what was the truth: God does not show up on earth, except in the form of a man who is a Manifestation of God (Messenger).

Is Bahai saying God did not show up and wrestle Jacob, ride his chariot over the people in Exodus and so on? If not they are lies according to Bahai.

It doesn't matter to God if there is religious conflict since God is transcendent.

It does because you say he shows up and has messengers. He also has messianic figures, the purpose of messianic figures is to save humanity.
Again with the circles, he doesn't care, but he interacts, gives laws, sermons, yes, in these religions God is a theism and cares.
You are making stuff up just to disagree.

That is a guy telling tales, but I have no idea why he told them.

So is Bahai. Bahai has to say the old stuff is void, too much.

Twice I already explained why Messengers of God do not reveal their divine powers. I am not going to explain it again.

It's a poor excuse, no one should buy it, it also does not mean a messenger cannot have knowledge, at least know the ether is B.S.

God does not worry about that since God is transcendent. God gave man free will to choose what to believe. If they want to believe nonsense, that is their own choice.

If Bahai followers want to believe that obvious nonsense, they too are free.

Divine body? That is an oxymoron since God is not a man with a body. God is spirit, so God cannot 'show up' on earth. Just one more reason we know that the Old Testament is wrong.

wow, really, please demonstrate where the infinite God of reality cannot show up as a human? Don't show me poetry some man wrote who had no evidence, just excuses.

No, I never said that books with claims is the ONLY thing the Baha'i Faith has for evidence.

There is no evidence that warrants belief in the supernatural claims.

Messengers are the evidence for God because that is what God provides as evidence.

Yeah and the Bible is true because it says so. Only religion can make people scoff at terrible circular arguments, but then turn around and actually use them for their religion? Unbelievable.

A circular reasoning fallacy consists of an argument that starts with a premise (A) and moves to a conclusion (B), where A is logically equivalent to B either explicitly or implicitly. In other words, both the premise and conclusion rely on the other's truthfulness: A is true, because B is true.

It is not an either/or. That is illogical.
Messengers are also people making claims. The way we can know if their claims are true is by looking at the evidence.

Yes, I've read his work, I find it terrible, repetitive and says nothing of substance.

 

[joelr]

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

Wow, you have really been presented some bad reasoning. Someones character is not evidence they are getting revelations.


Even.....,.this is important, so pay attention...............EVEN IF THEY SAY IT IS.




http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-52.html.utf8?query=proof&action=highlight#gr2

Wake up and smell the coffee. Fewer people are converting to Christianity than are converting to the Baha'i Faith since people no longer need the kind of thing that is in the Bible.

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Statistics from: Growth of religion

Well there you go, so they do need that "type of thing". The Quran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion

We have no proof, but we also have no confirmation bias.
It is not either/or. I suggest you take a course in logic.

Actually all you have is confirmation bias. It's true because it says so is all you have shown. No miracles, well it's says we don't need them.


100% confirmation bias.

By all means, tell me the logic type I need to use.

If hey have not happened yet, they will happen during this age. There is no reason to think that everything in Revelation will happen immediately after Christ returns.

First, it already happened. If you watch the lecture you will see.


Second, it's a Persian myth.


Deductive logic, based on the past. A culture takes a mythical story, makes their version of the story, it's still a mythical story.

That we have a soul cannot be demonstrated since the soul is immaterial, and the soul is a mystery.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159​

Wow, can he just answer a question without derailing into "his glory, his majesty, his light, adore him...."

All that to say he doesn't know.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-82.html

Somewhere during the course of evolution man became man and at that time man got a soul.

Oh, so our direct ancestor, no soul, just meat. But humans, we are special. soul to go with the body. Yeah, that's called fantasy fiction.


Also came from the Greeks.


-During the period of the Second Temple (c.515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

I was talking about psychic mediums, not Messengers:
"That is not the way you can know if the medium made contact. the only way you could know is if something came through the medium that only you and the departed spirit know. The medium should never be told this piece of information. The medium is only a mediator between the spirit world and this world."

However, Messengers did have information that no humans already had.

Show me information messengers had that no humans had. Did God tell him about penicillin? Nope. He knows nothing except the stuff he made up. He knows zero science, medical, cosmology, technology, not even philosophy. He also only knows the Bible, Quran and some Hindu scripture. He isn't read in Greek philosophy and nothing in philosophy of his time. Even Krishna had some good philosophy.

 

[joelr]

That is not hard to do..

Do you like good music? Yea---h..
Sweet soul music, Yeah, yeah.

Well .. I've got soul, but I don't know about you.

We have the same soul that soul music does, metaphorical. I wish I had a soul!

 

[joelr]

I suggest you try to stay on task.

I said: Baha'u'llah revealed information about God that a regular person could not, since there would be no way for a regular person to get that information.​

You said: Please, right now, give me a link to that information.​

So what I posted was a link to Gleanings, which contains information about God that a regular person could not have.

I did not enter this as absolute proof. Are you mentally slow, or do you simply ignore what I write?

Speaking of slow. I would not have thought I would need to explain this. And yet.......


"information" about God, Satan, Abe Lincoln, Andrew Tate, ...........ANYONE CAN MAKE ANYTHING UP.
Look, I too have information about God nobody has! I am a messenger.......



God, really hates the new Thor movie. He thought Ragnarok was really good and developed the character quite a bit, while being funny, and the script and acting was top notch. God thinks. But he thought the latest Thor,...... crap. Kills the franchise.


no one knew, I did, because he told me. And y'know how I can prove it;s true. Well, because no one knew that information before I told it.
It's new. So I am a true messenger of Gods movie thoughts..


When I say information that no one had, it means, (I'm shouting this very loudly), information that later, in the fr@#%%$# future turns out to be correct, like black holes, spacetime, special relativity, pennicillin, internet, computers on a phone, a phone, watch your cholesterol, steroids will make people get big muscles in sports, not random facts about God.



What is happening right now?

Again, there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, only evidence.

Baha'u'llah might have called that one of the proofs, but it is not proof, it is only evidence.

There is no good evidence. If that was the evidence for Islam you would not join.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Right, which NOTHING in the Bahai scripture does to a reasonable degree. NOTHING.

That's why if Jesus in AU has the same evidence you would laugh at him. If he said "but I know stuff about God you don't know, that proves it?" you would say "ARE YOU STUPID AU JESUS, YOU COULD BE MAKING THAT UP???" "GO AWAY AU JESUS".

Is what I think you would say.


https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=proof+definition

Of course my belief in something, and my motivation for believing has no bearing on the actual truthfullness of it.
Likewise, your disbelief in something, and your motivation for disbelieving has no bearing on the actual falseness of it

No, but the evidence weighing against the religion does have bearing on the likelyness that it's fake.
I don't just disbelieve. I weigh the evidence proportional to the claim. Someone who speaks to God will sound like it and have God information.
Not God-excuses why he knows nothing.
People enjoy telling lies. You already admitted the OT is not true. Well guess what else isn't true......

.

You need not assume that everyone fears death and that everyone wants to live forever. As far as fear of the unknown is concerned, the afterlife is unknown, so I am afraid of it. Moreover, I have no desire to live forever in a spiritual dimension I know nothing about.

Good because there is no evidence for a spiritual realm at all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We have the same soul that soul music does, metaphorical..

Well, there's your answer .. it is not something physical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Generally the word "I" would mean Jesus, but whatever.

Jesus was a Comforter. Baha'u'llah was another Comforter.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus did not say HOW He would come, but it was not in a physical body since a physical body can be seen. Jesus came in spirit.​

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

And that didn't happen to Christians at all.

Not unless those Christians became Baha'is, in which case those former Christians would be reminded of everything that Jesus said, just as Jesus said would happen.

LOL!, that's hilarious. No need to rewrite the Bible as you post completely different interpretations of John. Effectively, rewriting the Bible?
Unbelievable.

Different from what? The false Christian interpretation?
Try again. A different interpretation is not a rewrite.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to the disciples at Pentecost and that it lives inside of people and does all the things on the bulleted list below, but the verses say "he" which means it is a man who would do these things.

A Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16.
Only a Messenger of God who brought the Holy Spirit could do those things. These are the things that Baha'u'llah did. It is all in His Writings.

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

HA! So the text means what it says, except when it doesn't and is really talking about your new religion.
I couldn't make this stuff up.

The text means exactly what it says.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

no more

1. nothing further.
   "there was no more to be said about it"
2. no further.
   "you must have some soup, but no more wine"
3. exist no longer.
   "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
4. never again.
   "mention his name no more to me"
5. neither.
   "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"

Definitions from Oxford Languages

Definition of finished

1 : entirely done
Are you finished yet? : brought to a completed state reviewing a finished manuscript a finished job To keep a finished drawing from being smeared or soiled, spray it with a fixative. —
Finished Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

I couldn't make this stuff up.

Also, he said he would return, several times, but let me guess, you reinterpreted that. HA!!!

There is no need to reinterpret any verses, only to interpret them correctly.
Not once did Jesus EVER say 'He' was going to return to earth.
Jesus said we would see the Son of man in the clouds but He was not referring to Himself.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

We all change our minds all the time. It is the inevitable result of learning new things.
Beliefs are no exception to this rule.

 

[Trailblazer]

We all change our minds all the time. It is the inevitable result of learning new things.
Beliefs are no exception to this rule.

That's true, but some people never change their minds about 'certain' religious beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, and Muhammad had a visit from an angel, so did Joseph Smith, and Jesus has returned in Australia. He said so, so it must be true.

'He said so' does not make anything true.

Then why are you posting long excerpts of his writing as if it's evidence?

I said there is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.
I did not say that there is no evidence. Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence.

And yet, he has messengers come every so many centuries to spread the message. So he cares, but not enough to halt all the infighting and religious wars caused by zero evidence and everyone relying on upbringing or some type of apologetics?
I don't think so.

I don't think so either because halting all the infighting and religious wars is not God's job. It is a job for humans to do.

It isn't black and white. A God can still exist and this isn't what he chose to do. This could just be a guy making false claims.
Mormonism, Islam, also makes the same claims and you have no interest. So you really don't buy this type of evidence either. Maybe the writing convinced you and you give the evidence a pass?

God either exists or does not exist. That is black and white.
I said: "Logically, what we see is what God chose to do, if God exists, so the other option you can choose is that God does not exist."
I did not say that Messengers is what God chose to do so stop making a straw man. this is the second time you have done that.

God can exist and all religions can be a total mythology. God can exist and only Sikhs are correct.

That is true. Anything is possible and you get to choose what you believe since you have free will.