Can we change our mind about what we believe?

[Muffled]

Well I can.

Would you believe me if I said I've seen god face to face? I doubt it. But it's true, at least in my reality. Yet I choose to look away. I no longer chase him. I no longer give him my faith or effort or good words.



I have seen god, and am a practicing atheist. Some call me stubborn.

I am the master and author of my beliefs.

I believe God is the master of your destiny.

 

[Muffled]

A little correction, you think that you see evidence for God, where an overwhelming majority of people see none - this is in reference to an uneducated 19th Century Iranian, Bahaollah, being an actual manifestation of Allah.

I did not encounter that problem. I rejected nearly all what a main-line Hindu believes, creation, birth and death, existence of Gods and Goddesses, existence of soul, reincarnation, heaven and hell, etc. and became a strong atheist. But then, I found that Hinduism has no problem with atheism as long as I fulfill my duties ('dharma').

I believe I see that often enough. People throw out the baby with the bath water. All those other things could go but you should have retained God. At least on here you have the opportunity to meet Him.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All those other things could go but you should have retained God. At least on here you have the opportunity to meet Him.

Belief in God is the root cause of ignorance, belief in fake messengers and denial of facts. Why should I retain it? Just because some ignorant people claimed so centuries ago.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I agree that we humans are not much interested in the 'truth of it all', but it's not just because we're selfish. It's because we don't have the intellectual capacity necessary to discern the whole truth. It would require omniscience, and we simply are nowhere near that kind of capability. So instead we settle for whatever theory of the truth that we invent for ourselves that appears to "work" (function) in relation to our limited knowledge and experience of the world at present. And that leads us into the realm of self-interest. And into a kind of obsession with the illusion of being in control. And it is this desire for control, or even just the illusion of it, that we are really always in pursuit of (rather than the truth).

But very few of us will openly admit to this. As for whatever reason we don't want to see ourselves as being this intellectually limited, and this selfishly motivated.

I don’t think it possible to know the entire truth but for this age it should be obvious to one and all that we are experiencing problems getting along with one another with no solution in sight. Could it be we have been wrongly educated and now we need to be re-educated away from prejudices? A human being is a human being but for example some say we are Muslims and they are Jews or Americans thus they are Satan‘. This is superstition not truth. A prejudice is an emotional attachment to an untruth. over the ages we have been taught that our religion, race and nationality are superior to others and this belief has made us enemies and created wars.

We need enlightened people to publicly speak that we are all one human family and that all these conflicts are nonsense and must be stopped and people be taught from early childhood that we are all one human family and all equal. This is NOT what people are being taught today. For example Christians are brainwashed into believing that other religions are from Satan and only Jesus can save you. Muslims are brainwashed into believing non believers are infidels but none of this nonsense comes from the Bible or Quran.

Today the urgent need is for us to accept all humans unconditionally without judgement as equals. Nationalism is an imaginary barrier as is racism as there is only one true race - the human race. It’s a very, very simple truth muddied and complimented by a silly and irrational’us and them’ mindset which only creates division and disunity. We can get along but only if we put aside our prejudices and accept one another as equals unconditionally and without judgement. This mindset of love for all humanity needs to be taught to all the children of the world so that the next generation will never even think about war.

Currently, the push to accept all humanity as one is not loud enough nor strong enough to contain the hatreds and prejudices which is fuelling conflicts everywhere and maybe another world war.

 

[PureX]

I don’t think it possible to know the entire truth but for this age it should be obvious to one and all that we are experiencing problems getting along with one another with no solution in sight. Could it be we have been wrongly educated and now we need to be re-educated away from prejudices? A human being is a human being but for example some say we are Muslims and they are Jews or Americans thus they are Satan‘. This is superstition not truth. A prejudice is an emotional attachment to an untruth. over the ages we have been taught that our religion, race and nationality are superior to others and this belief has made us enemies and created wars.

The problem is that we don't know 'the truth', so we go with whatever theory of it that seems to 'work' for us. And that always comes down to control, one way or another. Because it's control we really want, not truth. So we all end up trying to control everything and everyone around us, and barring that, we end up chasing after the illusion of control even when we don't actually have any. So we are constantly trying to enforce the fiction that we know the truth, and that we are therefor in control of our own destiny. And then we struggle and contend endlessly with each other trying and prove it to ourselves.

I don't know that we can educate ourselves out of this perpetual trap. Mostly because we keep dying off generationally and then having to begin all over again. One lifetime just doesn't seem to be long enough for most of us to see ourselves for what we are, and change it. And even those few that manage it then pass away. "Finigan begin again".

But I am sure we could at least try to do better. God knows that killing each other and chasing after money and power our whole lives has not been a wise or successful methodology. Nor has playing religious or political 'follow the leader'. So I don't think we could do much worse by pursuing real honesty for a change, instead of ever more control.

We need enlightened people to publicly speak that we are all one human family and that all these conflicts are nonsense and must be stopped and people be taught from early childhood that we are all one human family and all equal. This is NOT what people are being taught today. For example Christians are brainwashed into believing that other religions are from Satan and only Jesus can save you. Muslims are brainwashed into believing non believers are infidels but none of this nonsense comes from the Bible or Quran.

Was it EVER what people were being taught? Seems to me all we have ever taught each other is that it's a dog-eat-dog world and you better take whatever you can get before the next person takes it, and leaves you without. We humans think we're so smart, but in the most essential ways, we're still just dumb animals fighting over the scraps of a dead carcass.

Today the urgent need is for us to accept all humans unconditionally without judgement as equals. Nationalism is an imaginary barrier as is racism as there is only one true race - the human race. It’s a very, very simple truth muddied and complimented by a silly and irrational ’us and them’ mindset which only creates division and disunity. We can get along but only if we put aside our prejudices and accept one another as equals unconditionally and without judgement. This mindset of love for all humanity needs to be taught to all the children of the world so that the next generation will never even think about war.

Currently, the push to accept all humanity as one is not loud enough nor strong enough to contain the hatreds and prejudices which is fuelling conflicts everywhere and maybe another world war.

Unfortunately, selfishness is highly contagious. Whenever one person in any group takes more than he needs, at the expense of the others, the others in the group decide they must do the same just to protect themselves. And sadly, this is a relatively logical conclusion. So the moral failure of the one soon becomes the moral failure of the many. And everyone just accepts it as being inevitable. Even though, the failure of the one may have been inevitable, but the failure of many was not. A different response could have been jointly determined.

I don't know if or how humanity will ever find a way to get past this kind of 'terminal selfishness' contagion. I do know that if you or anyone tries to speak or act out against it to any effective degree, they will meet with very powerful opposition. Because the current system praises and rewards greed and selfishness with ever more money and power. And they are firmly in control of the system that feeds the their selfishness. And they will not tolerate any effective opposition.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don’t think it possible to know the entire truth but for this age it should be obvious to one and all that we are experiencing problems getting along with one another with no solution in sight. Could it be we have been wrongly educated and now we need to be re-educated away from prejudices? A human being is a human being but for example some say we are Muslims and they are Jews or Americans thus they are Satan‘. This is superstition not truth. A prejudice is an emotional attachment to an untruth. over the ages we have been taught that our religion, race and nationality are superior to others and this belief has made us enemies and created wars.

We need enlightened people to publicly speak that we are all one human family and that all these conflicts are nonsense and must be stopped and people be taught from early childhood that we are all one human family and all equal. This is NOT what people are being taught today. For example Christians are brainwashed into believing that other religions are from Satan and only Jesus can save you. Muslims are brainwashed into believing non believers are infidels but none of this nonsense comes from the Bible or Quran.

Today the urgent need is for us to accept all humans unconditionally without judgement as equals. Nationalism is an imaginary barrier as is racism as there is only one true race - the human race. It’s a very, very simple truth muddied and complimented by a silly and irrational’us and them’ mindset which only creates division and disunity. We can get along but only if we put aside our prejudices and accept one another as equals unconditionally and without judgement. This mindset of love for all humanity needs to be taught to all the children of the world so that the next generation will never even think about war.

Currently, the push to accept all humanity as one is not loud enough nor strong enough to contain the hatreds and prejudices which is fuelling conflicts everywhere and maybe another world war.

Same old story. A Baha'i will say that all we can know about God and truth comes from God's messengers. But then say that all the old messages have become distorted. Making the only message and messenger that has The Truth is their messenger. That isn't accepting all people. That is telling them that they are wrong in their beliefs, even if those beliefs came from one of the messengers that Baha'is say were genuine.

The truth, according to the Baha'i Faith, is that all the other religions are part of the problem. They have all been distorted and are keeping people separate and divided against each other. The only way, according to Baha'is, is for all people to stop taking their old religious beliefs as being the absolute truth. The only truth today comes from Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. That is the true message of the Baha'is. Yet, you don't seem to want to say it that plainly. Baha'is try and disguise it with talk of acceptance of all people and all religious beliefs.

Why? Do Baha'is think they are fooling anybody? Oh, and "prejudice" is different than knowing what other people believe and not agreeing with them. How do people, including Baha'is, learn to get along and tolerate people that believe different than you and actually believe your religion is false? And you believing that your religion, the Baha'i Faith, is the truth for today and the only solution for todays' problems. I don't see any way around that. Even Baha'is don't agree with the beliefs and practices of any other religion as it is being practiced today.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same old story. A Baha'i will say that all we can know about God and truth comes from God's messengers. But then say that all the old messages have become distorted. Making the only message and messenger that has The Truth is their messenger.

Same old story, distorting the facts about what Baha'is believe.

Baha'is believe that all we can know about God and truth comes from God's Messengers.

Baha'is believe that some of the older religious traditions and what was recorded in their holy books has been corrupted by humans.

But that does not mean that the only message and Messenger that has The Truth is Baha'u'llah, and that is clearly refuted by Baha'u'llah.

Baha’u’llah sternly warned us never to make any distinction between any of the Messengers of God (who are the Manifestations of His Cause) because they all arise to proclaim the same religion, since there is only one eternal religion of God. Baha’u’llah wrote that the works and acts of all the Manifestations of God were all ordained by God, a reflection of His Will and Purpose, meaning that all the religions are equally true and all the Messengers are equal in stature.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60​

Baha'u'llah wrote that the Messengers of God are all the Bearers of the Trust of God.

“The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 50​

That isn't accepting all people. That is telling them that they are wrong in their beliefs, even if those beliefs came from one of the messengers that Baha'is say were genuine.

What does it mean to accept all people? It certainly does not mean we have to agree with everyone about their religious beliefs. I accept everyone on this forum but I do not agree with all their religious beliefs. So what?

I am not telling people they are wrong, I am just saying what I believe, just as they tell me what they believe.

The truth, according to the Baha'i Faith, is that all the other religions are part of the problem. They have all been distorted and are keeping people separate and divided against each other. The only way, according to Baha'is, is for all people to stop taking their old religious beliefs as being the absolute truth. The only truth today comes from Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. That is the true message of the Baha'is. Yet, you don't seem to want to say it that plainly. Baha'is try and disguise it with talk of acceptance of all people and all religious beliefs.

The true message of the Baha'is is not that the only truth today comes from Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith.

The message can be summed up as follows:
Baha'u'llah urged us to focus on what He revealed because the older religions no longer rest on their original solid foundations.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.”​

Gleanings, p. 171​

Baha'u'llah did not say that we have to turn towards Him, He only said that if we do that will be considered highly meritorious in the sight of God

“Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God…” Gleanings, p. 172​

How do people, including Baha'is, learn to get along and tolerate people that believe different than you and actually believe your religion is false? And you believing that your religion, the Baha'i Faith, is the truth for today and the only solution for todays' problems. I don't see any way around that. Even Baha'is don't agree with the beliefs and practices of any other religion as it is being practiced today.

Why continually pick on the Baha'is? We are not the religion that believes we are the only true religion and 'the only way' to approach God.
What you wrote would be more accurately stated as follows.

How do Christians learn to get along and tolerate people that believe differently than them when they actually believe all other religions are false? And Christians believe that Christianity is the truth for ALL OF TIME and the only solution for ALL OF TIME. I don't see how Christians can respect anyone else's beliefs while holding those beliefs. I don't see any way around that. Christians don't agree with the beliefs and practices of any other religion as it is being practiced today.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We need enlightened people to publicly speak that we are all one human family and that all these conflicts are nonsense and must be stopped and people be taught from early childhood that we are all one human family and all equal. This is NOT what people are being taught today. For example Christians are brainwashed into believing that other religions are from Satan and only Jesus can save you. Muslims are brainwashed into believing non believers are infidels but none of this nonsense comes from the Bible or Quran.

How many enlightened people have already come up. Nine (at least, since the Creation starting with Adam, the first manifestation of Allah), if we go by Bahai belief. Have wars ended? Then, what is the use of having enlightened people?
So, you mean Kitab-i-Aqdas or Bahaollah are not the only sources of enlightenment, and that it is possible with any scripture, Bible, Quran or Vedas, BhagawadGita? Were Laozi and Confucious manifestations of Allah and enlightened?

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe I see that often enough. People throw out the baby with the bath water. All those other things could go but you should have retained God. At least on here you have the opportunity to meet Him.

And each religion can say the same thing. Each thinks that we're throwing out their "baby". But why does the bathtub look like there's nothing there but dirty water?

 

[CG Didymus]

How many enlightened people have already come up. Nine (at least, since the Creation starting with Adam, the first manifestation of Allah), if we go by Bahai belief. Have wars ended? Then, what is the use of having enlightened people?
So, you mean Kitab-i-Aqdas or Bahaollah are not the only sources of enlightenment, and that it is possible with any scripture, Bible, Quran or Vedas, BhagawadGita? Were Laozi and Confucious manifestations of Allah and enlightened?

And Krishna is one of those people that Baha'is say was an "enlightened one". But didn't he talk Arjuna into fighting in a war against people that were his relatives? I wonder how the Baha'is explain that. Or how in the Bible God told his people to go out and kill people and possess their land. And I think even Muhammad took part in battles against people he was related to.

But that doesn't matter. I agree with Baha'is... people shouldn't go out killing and fighting each other over land and resources. Trouble is, that is what people do and are still doing. And what are the Baha'is going to do to change that?

If they have the direct words from God on how to solve the problem, then why don't they apply it? And go stop the wars between Russia and Ukraine and the war between Hamas and Israel? They know they can't, because the people on both sides won't listen. So, all Baha'is can do is talk a good story.

But you know, Baha'is claim that whole villages have joined the Baha'i Faith in India. I wonder how that's going? Have they applied the Baha'i teachings in their village? Are those villages living in peace? Are all the people being treated as equals and are they all happy and doing well?

Or... are there still problems? Have things improved even a little bit? Or... was the story just an exaggeration?

 

[Aupmanyav]

But you know, Baha'is claim that whole villages have joined the Baha'i Faith in India. I wonder how that's going?

Bahais and their Godly manifestation have claimed many things. A claim is a claim and not necessarily the truth! Do they provide any evidence? They could name the village and I will check. Such a claim is good for fooling people all over the world.

 

[joelr]

There were miracles in the Baha'i Faith: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

It is absurd that you would enter this as evidence. Anecdotal tales, some are just so bias? One "miracle" is he predicted ocean travel would become safer and safer? Really? This was a time of industrial revolution, machines and tech were expanding rapidly.

Let me show you how ridiculous this is.
If today I wrote down, "space travel is going to get safer and safer" and over the next 200 years it happened, would that be a miracle? No.
We know technology is improving.
Ali Baba had millions of people swear to his many miracles in the late 1800s early 1900s. Levitation, healing, whatever. As did all cult leaders and religious figures.
https://bahai-library.com/gammage_famous_miracles

Baha'u'llah was well read in Islam since He was raised as a Muslim, but that is not where He got His knowledge. He got His knowledge from God.

So you admit he read Islamic and Christian scriptures but then claim he got knowledge from God? What is your evidence? We already have a reason for him to have this knowledge so adding God onto it isn't needed. That isn't proof, it's a claim. Also made by Mormons, JW, Islam, Hindu, and should not be believed without reasonable evidence.

The creator of reality KNOWS MORE than you do.

You haven't demonstrated any God or that the universe was created? This is another base claim with no evidence. When you believe claim after claim you probably don't care about what is actually true.

That means that whatever you see is what you get, and that is what God wanted to do, something that atheists do not seem to understand

Oh, I understand. So God just "choose" to leave behind only knowledge that humans already knew, nothing new. That's convenient. So another explanation here is that this is just written by a man and no God is involved.

. Logically, what we see is what God chose to do, if God exists, so the other option you can choose is that God does not exist.

No. The other option is that this man wrote some books and claimed a God was sending him messages, but it's not true. It has nothing to do with a God existing or not. I don't know where you got into this black and white thinking?

Sorry, but God has always required that we have faith in order to believe, but God has also provided evidence so that faith is not blind.

God has not. In the OT Yahweh shows up many many times, Satan shows up, does supernatural things, Jesus does many miracles, Yahweh even fights a sea monster. Among many other things. Faith is a bad path to truth, you can take faith in any position regardless of its truth. Faith is used when there is no evidence

I still haven't seen any evidence you speak of?

The problem with critical thinkers and skeptics is that they think they know everything so they are not open-minded to what God has provided.

Strawman. No critical thinker here has ever said they know everything. In fact all they usually ask for is basic reasonable evidence.
This can be easily turned around and said religious thinkers are so bias in their belief that they cannot be open-minded to logic, rational thought and an empirical methodology to understand true things.

They argue endlessly against it, so that prevents them from ever finding the truth.

What truth? You can never show any truth? The science he predicted was wrong. The prophecies are as vague as every other religion. The work has no evidence, it's just a man writing about God. That is not evidence. We are arguing against the lack of evidence you have and the level of unwarranted belief.
Maybe if you had questioned it rationally you would have had similar questions?

God does know that faith alone is not enough, and that is why God also provides evidence.

What evidence?

The Messenger of God is the evidence that God exists, but not everyone is going to recognize the Messenger of God, especially a new one.

That is a claim. The new Jesus in Au., he has a following. Mormons have a messenger and a new Bible, it isn't about recognizing a messenger of God. It's about demonstrating you actually are a messenger of God.
HE did not. Science, wrong, philosophy, none, anything new that a human would not know, nothing. Beyond that it's just wishful thinking.
I don't want to live by wishful thinking.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.​

You quote Matthwew but you ignore the part that says all new messengers are fake. Cherry Pick.

There are reasons why few people find it.

If you use logic and reason you would realize that few people find the narrow gate and even fewer people enter through it because it is narrow, so it is difficult to get through...

It isn't. A God would be able to demonstrate he is a God, as the OT, NT and Mormon Bible know.

It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves.

What I am doing is thinking for myself. Not following any crowd.

 

[joelr]

Most people do not embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.... and that is why the NEW religion is always rejected by most people for a very long time after it has been revealed.

You are making narratives to justify why this person clearly has zero evidence. I believe you want this to be a message from God and are attempting to make justifications so it can be true. I am not interested in doing that.

Of course God sees the divide between Islam and Christianity which is separating the world, and that is one reason God sent Baha'u'llah,to teach the unity of mankind and that all religions are one, from one Source.

If it were God, he would know how serious Muslims are and how serious Christians are and when a man writes some books and makes these claims he would NEED to have MASSIVE evidence. In fact angels would show up, he would be given supernatural powers and he would be given knowledge that no person could deny, could only be from a God or advanced alien.


Leaving it up in the air without evidence suggests it's just another man making a claim of revelation but he cannot show evidence because he's just a man. God would know NO religious Muslim or otherwise would ever leave their religion for books with no evidence, not even written as well in a literary sense, no advanced philosophy, nothing.

If Christians understood the meaning of their scripture they would know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and they would become Baha'is.

So you actually think Christian theologians are wRONG, because Bahai says "oh no, what this means is......." and he goes on to make it mean his religion is correct. Of course he does. You cannot see how devious hat is and would never convert a religious person

And mysteriously, no supernatural events recorded, no angels this time? It's so suspicious.

Most Baha'is in the western world were formerly Christians. However, most Christians won't become Baha'is because they were indoctrinated into Christianity, so they believe that (a) Christianity is the only true religion and (b) the same man Jesus is going to return.

Like you , they believe their scripture. You, believe your books. Neither have proof. All are likely made up by people, no Gods anywhere to be found.

Again, Jesus returns, all of these conditions are supposed to happen, end of the world. So now you have to claim that is all wrong, it's just going to be a guy, no miracles, no supernatural events, no angels, no Yahweh. No chance.

I guess you do not know what the Baha'i teachings are. The Baha'i Faith does not deny that we are animals, but it teaches that we also have a spiritual nature. The Baha'i Faith does not deny evolution, we believe in it.

They say we are not animals.

Baha'u'llah did reveal new teachings and principles. You can deny that if you want to but that is like denying that the earth is round.

https://bahaiteachings.org/brand-new-religious-principles-bahai-faith

https://bahaiteachings.org/brand-new-religious-principles-bahai-faith


These new propaganda pages are not needed. I know the false claims they made and there are many.


"So if we were to imagine a time when man belonged to the animal kingdom, that is, when he was merely an animal, existence would have been imperfect. This means that there would have been no man, and this chief member, which in the body of the world is like the mind and the brain in a human being, would have been lacking, and the world would thus have been utterly imperfect. This is sufficient proof in itself that if there had been a time when man belonged to the animal realm, the completeness of existence would have been destroyed; for man is the chief member of the body of this world, and a body without its chief member is undoubtedly imperfect. We regard man as the chief member because, among all created things, he encompasses all the perfections of existence."



Here they did not know about the hominid fossil line that would be found 100 years later and the we indeed did evolve from earlier hominids.


We are not the "chief member of the world", but this egocentric position was held back in the Dark Ages and continued until the scientific revolution.


So this is simply wrong.

They also did not know about th ebig bang, so they wrote:

"it follows that the world of existence, this endless universe, likewise has no beginning. "


they did not understand quantum mechanics or any physics:

"8It is therefore evident that the original matter, which is like unto the embryo, initially took the form of composed and combined elements, and that composition gradually grew and developed over a myriad ages and centuries, passing from one shape and form to another until, through the consummate wisdom of"


didn't understand probabilities, fundamental matter, spacetime. Elements were the thing and here are believed to be fundamental.

This goes on and on and is written exactly like a man using only knowledge of the time but trying to sound like he's explaining the untimate science. He isn't and it's simply not a person in contact with an advanced alien or deity.

https://bahaiteachings.org/brand-ne...114010601&mc_cid=8eb5f548de&mc_eid=4e2cd3f474

From what I know, it was the scribes who memorized the text as Gabrielle spoke it to Muhammad. Muhammad did not write the Qur'an. Scribes wrote it years later. The Bab and Baha'u'llah were the only Messengers of God who wrote their own scriptures.

And there is nothing in it except incorrect science and praise to God. The philosophy isn't there either. The only thing is it's long.

I do not say that penning words is evidence. It is what those words say that constitutes evidence, although it is only part of the evidence.

All science being wrong is evidence? Even though it is titles "Evolution of Man" and "Origin of the Universe" and knows nothing except things that were already known at the time.


It doesn't say we will find many fossils of early man, it jusyt claims we are not really animals because then Earth couldn't exist. It's made up sci-fi.

That's evidence, if we believe what these chanelers say.

No, it's evidence that you believe something. Not evidence that it's true.

Of course me having no doubt does not make anything true. There is evidence of a spiritual realm, from mediums who have contacted spirits in that realm. I won't say that NDEs are evidence of a spiritual realm because those people were not fully dead so they never crossed over to the spiritual realm of existence.

There is not. No medium has EVER shown evidence. They claim to make contact. I repeatedly ask anyone who can contact any spirit to read a card I have with a 14 digit number and tell it to them. It never happens. To anyone. Those people are probably all fraud.

 

[joelr]

When I said His Life, I meant everything about His Life, from early childhood on, but regarding Baha'u'llah, particularly what He did during the last 40 years of His Life, which was related to His Mission from God.

I don't see how that follows.

Baha'u'llah revealed information about God that a regular person could not, since there would be no way for a regular person to get that information.

Please, right now, give me a link to that information.

I have no idea what science you are referring to that was wrong. The prophecies were not vague.

". from the beginning of man's existence on this planet until he assumed his present shape, form, and condition, a long time must have elapsed, and he must have traversed many stages before reaching his present condition. But from the beginning of his existence man has been a distinct species."

WRONG. We even have DNA from Neanderthals.

"`Abdu'l-Bahá's comments seem to differ from the standard evolutionary picture of human development, where Homo sapiens as one species along with the great apes evolved from a common ancestor living in Africa millions of years ago."

wrong

"`Abdu'l-Bahá's use of the aether concept in one of his talks - his audience including scientists of the time - has been the source of some controversy. The chapter in `Abdu'l-Bahá's Some Answered Questions which mentions aether differentiates between things that are "perceptible to the senses" and those which are "realities of the intellect" and not perceptible to the senses.[20] `Abdu'l-Bahá includes "ethereal matter" (also translated as "etheric matter"), "

He believed in the ether, which was popular at the time, it was not real

"Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. "Is it ever possible," they ask, "for copper to be transmuted into gold?" Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book"

We cannot do this. But he says ask God and it will be revealed.

"Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute.[24] "

No, every planet does not have life

He also got cellular science wrong and several other toopics but I cannot find the book I read that from, it was years ago.

He also doesn't know Abraham and Moses are literary constructs and is completely misinformed about the OT.

An important point is that God is not trying to prove that He exists so the Messenger of God is not trying to do things that are out of the ordinary to prove that he was a Messenger of God.

He is:

"Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures"

"Proofs and Arguments for the Existence of God"

The spiritual station of the Messenger (Manifestation) of God is not revealed to the eyes of men, and the reason it is not revealed is explained below:

"... While the Manifestations of God all shine with the splendours of God's Revelation, they can reveal themselves in only two ways. The first is to appear in their naked glory. Should this happen, all human beings would witness their awesome power, would bow before their majesty and would submit their will entirely to God's Viceregent on earth. People would thus become puppets of God and lose their free will; all would follow the path of truth, not by their own volition but by capitulating to the irresistible power of the Manifestation of God………​

​

The only other way that the Manifestations of God can reveal themselves, which ensures the preservation of human free will, is to conceal their divine power behind the veil of human characteristics. Although they possess majestic, divine qualities, it is, according to Bahá’u’lláh, against the law of God for them to reveal these to the generality of mankind. Through this method people can exercise their free will to accept or to reject the Message of God, to live in accordance with His teachings or to disobey Him."​

Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 17​

Bunch of cult material. "If we showed you the real proof you would be forced to believe, but we want freewill so..."

Of course he would say that. Hey, forget the shiny manifestations of God that will stun everyone into submission, how about saying ONE THING that a human wouldn't know. Like things are made of atoms which have a center and a charged particle orbiting. But they act like waves until observed.
Or the trillionth digit of pi is............

As noted in the passage below, the Divine Purpose is that “the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean.” What that means in plain English is that God wants us to use our own innate intelligence to determine who the Manifestations of God are.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71​

Nothing in his writing is spiritual, philosophical or scientific. Yes, I will use my own intelligence to see he is just a man claiming revelations. Like all others.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-29.html.utf8?query=thunderstruck&action=highlight#pg72

God does not reveal information about scientific matters since that is not the purpose of a revelation from God. Messengers of God teach that we must do good, that we must be generous, sincere, truthful, law-abiding, and faithful. God leaves it up to humans to discover the mysteries of the material world.

An excuse. Except, I already read scientific discourse about evolution, the universe, cellular science, the ether and more, in a Bahai scripture.
I will find it.
Why you accept this I don't know? He is clearly making excuses as to why he doesn't have God-level knowledge. But guess what?
The Quran is FULL OF SCIENCE that claimed to be new. And from God. Except it wasn't, it was from the Greeks. Hmmm, that would be a problem for Bahai because they back Muhammad.
And they give scientific knowledge but it's all wrong.

Yes, there are some new teachings and laws.

Nothing is going to 'demonstrate' that a man received communication from God. Such a claim cannot be proven, but even if it could be proven by something supernatural, miracles, etc., this would never be proof to everyone.

Yet it was done in the OT and the NT. It just cannot be done in modern times when we have writing and people around to confirm the stories?

And yes many things would demonstrate something unusual was going on.
He could have been given medical knowledge that would save millions. Any digit in a constant, information about cosmology, physics, anything.

What atheists do not understand is that just because an All-Powerful God 'could' do something that does not mean God 'would' do it. God only does what God chooses to do, period, and since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, God knows what is best to do, better what to do than any human could know.

What religious people do not seem to understand is just because you have an emotional attachment to a movement doesn't mean it isn't just a man fooling you with attractive words.
Again, so all wise God thinks it's best, to leave the world split with Islam, Christianity and others, strictly sticking to their beliefs, ready to give their lives if needed, instead of giving good proof or showing up. Nonsense. Look at the world right now.

Why would God put all the information in every persons consciousness? Why should God do that? You want everything handed to you on a silver platter, but God doesn't operate that way. God makes it somewhat difficult, but not impossible, to recognize His Messengers.

(Continued on next post)

Actually it's you who wants it handed on a silver platter. Every post you make excuses that end up meaning you get your religion to be true with the EXACT circumstances given, you accept all apologetics exactly matching the circumstances you have, so all you need do is read a book and accept it's true and boom. You now know the truth of the universe through a book with zero proof, zero new knowledge, just belief.
It just so happens this is EXACTLY how EVERY CULT EVER has also worked. Every cult, religion and movement had the exact same membership qualifications. Read the book, accept. God chose the method that has fooled billions of people. Heavens Gate? Yup, good method. Even people who gave their lives for the cult they accepted it so much.
He chose that method, wow, what a coincidence. Hmmm, could it be because this is just another version?
But it isn't you who wants an easy fix. No. So no evidence, no empirical methodology, no rational method, but yet it's real, because........

I do not buy that you "recognized" his messenger, I suspect you want this to be true and accept it.

 

[CG Didymus]

A Baha'i will say that all we can know about God and truth comes from God's messengers. But then say that all the old messages have become distorted. Making the only message and messenger that has The Truth is their messenger. That isn't accepting all people. That is telling them that they are wrong in their beliefs, even if those beliefs came from one of the messengers that Baha'is say were genuine.

To that one Baha'i who acts as if she knows everything... I stand by what I said. Baha'is say that they accept all messengers, yet they don't believe the Scriptures that talk about those alleged messengers is accurate. The Baha'i Faith make up their own versions of Noah and Abraham. They deny the most important event in the life of Jesus, his resurrection.

Now that would be just fine... If Baha'is didn't say they believed in those other messengers and their religions. And since Baha'is don't believe any of the other religions to be teaching accurately the things of God, then that leaves only their religion, the Baha'i Faith, as the only religion that has the truth and is teaching the truth.

What truth? You can never show any truth? The science he predicted was wrong. The prophecies are as vague as every other religion. The work has no evidence, it's just a man writing about God. That is not evidence. We are arguing against the lack of evidence you have and the level of unwarranted belief.

They have what they call evidence, but they don't really seem to care about the evidence against their prophet being not only the return of Christ, but the Jewish Messiah, the Mahdi of the Shia Islam, the Maitreya of Buddhism, the Kalki Avatar of Hinduism and some others.

That's a lot of prophecies about a lot of people that all have to point to being the same person, the prophet of the Baha'i Faith. But then they add another prophet, the Bab, that also has to be predicted as being the forerunner of the main prophet. And then show how all these people prophesied by all these religions, would not only be fulfilled by one man, but that he would come from Persia.

Of course, the fulfillments have to be vague. Just like some of the prophecies themselves. But, to a Baha'i, they explanations and interpretations are close enough. But really, is close enough... close enough? Even in horseshoes there is a point for getting close, but there is also more points for getting it dead on and getting a ringer.

Maybe I'd give them a ringer for the one verse that says he will come with a new name. But then who are they talking about? Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah? Baha'is say all of them were "Christs". I don't even give them any points for trying to include Muhammad in any of the prophesies in Revelation. Baha'is try to make Muhammad one of the two witnesses. Then they try to make him the first "Wow". Too vague. Too forced. No points awarded. In fact, I take away a point for trying to make Muhammad fit into Revelation.

 

[Trailblazer]

To that one Baha'i who acts as if she knows everything... I stand by what I said. Baha'is say that they accept all messengers, yet they don't believe the Scriptures that talk about those alleged messengers is accurate.

When did I ever deny that. I have probably said that about 100 times on this forum, and I have explained WHY I don't think those Scriptures are accurate. I even posted quotes from the authoritative Writings of the Baha'i Faith stating why they are not accurate.

Moreover, it is not only the Baha'is who don't believe the Scriptures that talk about those alleged messengers is accurate. Most of the atheists on this forum share that view.

The Baha'i Faith make up their own versions of Noah and Abraham. They deny the most important event in the life of Jesus, his resurrection.

The Baha'i Faith did not make anything up. Baha'u'llah wrote what He wrote and we believe it since we believe He is a Messenger/Manifestation of God, so He knows more about Noah and Abraham and Jesus than the men who wrote the Bible.

Holy moly! The most important event in the life of Jesus was not his resurrection! The main reason the resurrection is important to Christians is because they 'believe' Jesus' resurrection means that they will also resurrect and have a body like they believe Jesus had. A complete misinterpretation of Bible verses led to this false Christian doctrine. The other reason the resurrection is important to Christians is because they use it to claim superiority over all the other religions.

The most important 'event' in the life of Jesus was His death on the cross, but the most important thing Jesus did for humanity was give us His teachings.

Now that would be just fine... If Baha'is didn't say they believed in those other messengers and their religions. And since Baha'is don't believe any of the other religions to be teaching accurately the things of God, then that leaves only their religion, the Baha'i Faith, as the only religion that has the truth and is teaching the truth.

Baha'is believe those other Messengers were sent by God, but but that the Scriptures were misinterpreted, and the religions were corrupted by man over time, but I have already said this about 100 times.

Baha'is believe that the most important part of a religion is the spiritual teachings.
In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions. The spiritual teachings are the essence, or essential element, of a religion, and those teachings were not lost. They have been recorded and preserved in all the Holy Books.

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet.

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible

 

[Link]

The Bahai Faith did not make anything up. bahaullah wrote what He wrote and we believe it since we believe He is a Messenger/Manifestation of God, so He knows more about Noah and Abraham and Jesus.

You are caught in circular reasoning in my view. I can elaborate.

Bahais say there is obscure meanings that only their Prophets can reveal. But they can't prove these are the proper views to scripture except by claiming that Prophets know scripture better. But how do you know they are Prophets in the first place? If you resort to the prophecies as part of the evidence - which is on unclear interpretation - that they know better, is makes a full circle. You are caught in circular reasoning.

The Quran shows that believers see Mohammad (s) in Torah and Gospels. But never quotes the verses. It has allusions to it, but the way Quran alludes to it is subtle and miraculous. It didn't do this well God knows best the interpretation and so it's this and that meaning. It argued through out and alluded to them, but it never once quotes verbatim the verses we find predicting Mohammad (s) in Torah and Gospels. But the way it alludes to them interprets and salvages the holy books, and shows where they are corrupted and where they are not. It shows through reasoning and reflection, where it's corrupted and where the truth still remains.

If it quoted the verses, and said we ought to accept his interpretation because Mohammad (s) is a Messenger of God, it would be the full circle I explained. But it alluded to with allusions to clarify the truth in this regard and the distortions.

So this subtle middle way of Quran where it proves things, but is not overly explicit or overly assertive is a beauty I feel only God can do. The reason is everyone else does not have the patience to be that subtle, and putting everything hiddenly in plain site.

The middle way was need so that who wants to blind themselves to Quran can do so and justify their blindness through it and they would feel less need of distorting it's text. This is due things coming to an end with Mohammad (s) and his family (a).

This has advantages but the disadvantage is that interpretation can become difficult if Satan overwhelms people. That the truth can be come hidden in plain sight and very little see.

The new book Imam Mahdi (a) comes with is the book Ali (a) wrote that kept the order of verses when they revealed and revealed the circumstances and commentary of Mohammad (s) to the verses. This will be a miracle in itself and will show the ultimate wisdom of why the Quran was revealed dynamically slowly overtime and not in rapidness and why verses were placed slowly in different parts. Today, we can see even with applications, we can code when verses were revealed and see how the Quran was formed dynamically over the time.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are caught in circular reasoning in my view. I can elaborate.

Bahais say there is obscure meanings that only their Prophets can reveal. But they can't prove these are the proper views to scripture except by claiming that Prophets know scripture better. But how do you know they are Prophets in the first place? If you resort to the prophecies as part of the evidence - which is on unclear interpretation - that they know better, is makes a full circle. You are caught in circular reasoning.

Prophecies are part of the evidence but they are not the best way to know if someone is a Prophet.
Baha'u'llah never told us to look at prophecies as proof of His claims.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

As I see it, prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are just like icing on the cake, further evidence that He was who He claimed to be.

 

[Ebionite]

As I see it, prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are just like icing on the cake, further evidence that He was who He claimed to be.

The claim of fulfilment can lead to unexpected conclusions. For example, verse 25 from John 15 leads to Psalms 35, 69, and 109. Psalm 35 relates to verse 26.

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26

Psalm 69 and 109 are also about fulfilment described by Acts 1:20.

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 1:16

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 1:20

 

[joelr]

They have what they call evidence, but they don't really seem to care about the evidence against their prophet being not only the return of Christ, but the Jewish Messiah, the Mahdi of the Shia Islam, the Maitreya of Buddhism, the Kalki Avatar of Hinduism and some others.

I can't see any evidence that would be considered reasonable evidence. The scriptures talk about science and it's all wrong, the prophecies are vague and unlike the claims of the religions that came before, which featured many supernatural events on earth, this time there isn't anyy of that.

But there is a switch, they say there is evidence but when I point out the science is wrong and the prophecies are vague then it becomes more about God doesn't have to prove anything, we don't know God and so on. It just seems to be a lot of gaol post moving.

That's a lot of prophecies about a lot of people that all have to point to being the same person, the prophet of the Baha'i Faith. But then they add another prophet, the Bab, that also has to be predicted as being the forerunner of the main prophet. And then show how all these people prophesied by all these religions, would not only be fulfilled by one man, but that he would come from Persia.

Of course, the fulfillments have to be vague. Just like some of the prophecies themselves. But, to a Baha'i, they explanations and interpretations are close enough. But really, is close enough... close enough? Even in horseshoes there is a point for getting close, but there is also more points for getting it dead on and getting a ringer.

Maybe I'd give them a ringer for the one verse that says he will come with a new name. But then who are they talking about? Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah? Baha'is say all of them were "Christs". I don't even give them any points for trying to include Muhammad in any of the prophesies in Revelation. Baha'is try to make Muhammad one of the two witnesses. Then they try to make him the first "Wow". Too vague. Too forced. No points awarded. In fact, I take away a point for trying to make Muhammad fit into Revelation.

The Book of Revelation? That book is very specific about events. A 7 headed dragon, stars falling, fire, all sorts of crazy stuff and monsters show up and wreak havok. Is all that being ignored? The 2nd coming is the end of the world. I haven't gotten that deep into the apologetics they must have to explain away all these things.