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can you be saved without any knowledge of christianity?
- Thread starter JMorris
- Start date
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Then how did Christianity get off the ground- when hell was not yet a concept to most people- and how does it win converts who, before becoming Christian, don't believe in hell?
Well, then we would just say there's something wrong with you
. Love is universal- yet there are sociopaths.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
I don't really long for anything. There are things I like and things I don't, and I pursue/avoid them accordingly to the extent I can. I certainly don't long for anything resembling "salvation." I've never gotten a straight answer to what it is I even need to be "saved" from, actually, despite asking people of almost every faith over the span of some 25 years or so.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, from my perspective, we've all sinned to one degree or another and there are consequences for sinning. To be saved is to not have to pay those consequences because someone else paid for you. That's not straight enough?doppelgänger;1519569 said:I've never gotten a straight answer to what it is I even need to be "saved" from, actually, despite asking people of almost every faith over the span of some 25 years or so.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
No. What is "sin"? Who decides? What are the consequences you are alluding to?
If I don't believe in out-there actual, "objective" deities, why would I need "saving" from sin?
And in a pragmatic sense, how does someone else dying prevent consequences of actions? Indeed deities are conspicuously powerless to void cause and effect in any sense other than the imaginary (i.e. in thoughts and ideas) or to in any meaningful way change the practical effects that follow from one's actions. Though one might think differently about one's self, the consequences outside of thought will remain unchanged.
If I ingest poison, whether Jesus died or not, I will still almost certainly get sick or die.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I didn't question your belief. I was merely questioning why you don't think anyone has ever given you a straight answer. I believe my answer was to the point and well-worded. If I explained what sin was, who decides and what the consequences are, what difference would it make? I apparently am not able to convey my thoughts well enough that you would consider me to have given you a straight answer. Nothing I could say further would make an ounce of difference. Clearly, I was answering from the perspective of someone who believes in a Higher Power. If you don't, then I guess it's a moot point.doppelgänger;1519734 said:
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
But it wasn't at all. My question was "What do I need need to be 'saved' from?". It was not what do you think you need to be saved from.
Why would I long for salvation if I don't even know what I need to be saved from?
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Aside from that, your answer did not address what "sin" is, who decides, what the "consequences" are or how professing belief in the right words ideas or rituals changes the consequences of one's actions.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I believe sin to be the voluntary transgression of one of God's commandments. Therefore, it is God who decides what sin is. The consequences range from separation from God in the next life to failing to be worthy of the blessings He has promised to the faithful. For someone like me, who believes in Jesus Christ, faith in Him, repentence, baptism for the remission of sins, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost and remaining faithful to Him throughout one's life make forgiveness and a reconciliation with God possible.doppelgänger;1519758 said:
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Should the race He is portrayed as matter?
Well, I guess Christianity really isn't known for it's regard for accuracy or authenticity, is it?
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
And perhaps you are not known for your critical thinking skills. Have you ever thought that the portrayal of Jesus as white is a theological statement- (and not that it means Christianity is a "European religion".)
In Japan images of the Blessed Mother and Jesus are very often of an Asian woman and man- in Africa, we see an African Christ. That does not mean we are ignorant of his ethnic origins.
Do you really think that when Bibles were made in the Middle Ages they drew Jesus and his Apostles walking through Medieval towns , or in later years, wearing Renaissance garb, because they thought that's how he actually looked?
Interesting question and my answer is yes and in the extreme cases that you present there is a test; as a Christian I believe that believe that God is almighty and that he saves whoever he has mercy on He is Sovereign Lord, isolation or remoteness are not an obstacle for Gods will, if he will that native in the Amazon is saved, that is what will happen, the Japanese, no problem, I also believe that to become a firm Christian you dont need to know about Jesus or be taught how He is, what you need is an encounter with Him, to know Him, that He reveals Himself to you.
Jhn 8:19
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
i dont see whats so extreme about the examples i give. up until the 1400's there was little to no chance of most of the world coming into contact with christianity.
from what ive learned and been told, one has to give himself to jesus to be saved. but you say that if you arent given the opportunity to learn anything about jesus, then god will give them a free pass? i dont quite understand that when a large part of being chrstian is knowing and giving yourself over to jesus.
you dont need to know anything about jesus? an encounter with him? if non christian people through history have had encounters with jesus, and thus being saved. then why is there no mention of jesus anywhere before christians europeans showed up?
what im asking is, if people over the world had a chance to "encounter" jesus, then why is there no mention of jesus anywhere in these places prior to christians showing up? if everyone in the world since jesus died had a chance to "encounter" him, why is his name never mentioned or his image not carved into stone, or his teachings not found anywhere prior to christianity showing up? why wasnt there jesus followers everywhere?
I see you where taught salvation though works, most Christians subscribe to salvation by Grace through Faith, we can not save ourselves, only God can save us, He chooses us not us Him.
Jhn 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
This is the way it is from the beginning:
Exd 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided [them] in Your strength To Your holy habitation.
Rom 9:15
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
Rom 9:16
So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided [them] in Your strength To Your holy habitation.
Rom 9:15
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
Rom 9:16
So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
ok. from what i understand everything in the OT is for the Hebrews not humanity in general. the OT is a purely tribal Hebrew god, and not for humanity. am i wrong? and dosent really answer that if anyone at anytime can come to know jesus, why arent there jesus followers all over the world all throughout time? or maybe you mean that god saves people without them even knowing it?
lunamoth
Will to love
6 he (the Lord) says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
Isaiah 49
The Bible answers: The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided [them] in Your strength To Your holy habitation. Redeem bought back not all but those on whom God has Mercy/compassion I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion".