can you be saved without any knowledge of christianity?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Anything is possible with God, Who desires that no one perish:

“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” - CCC 1260

In another words, anyone who lives a righteous life to the best of their ability and understanding, seeks truth and does not specifically reject Christ may be saved. The thinking is that such a person will accept Jesus as Savior after death. Jesus is said to minister to souls in Purgatory.

Hell is reserved for those who completely and consciously choose to turn from God and all the good that He is the Author of. However, one can still hold the hope that even those souls experiencing hell will one day be brought to reconciliation with God, Who draws all to Him, even if at the future renewal of all creation and the destruction of hell and death.

We cannot know the state of a person's soul. It is our responsibility to witness for Christ in deed and in word, and to ceaselessly pray for the salvation of all souls.

 

[Shiranui117]

Anything is possible with God, Who desires that no one perish:

“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” - CCC 1260

In another words, anyone who lives a righteous life to the best of their ability and understanding, seeks truth and does not specifically reject Christ may be saved. The thinking is that such a person will accept Jesus as Savior after death. Jesus is said to minister to souls in Purgatory.

Hell is reserved for those who completely and consciously choose to turn from God and all the good that He is the Author of. However, one can still hold the hope that even those souls experiencing hell will one day be brought to reconciliation with God, Who draws all to Him, even if at the future renewal of all creation and the destruction of hell and death.

We cannot know the state of a person's soul. It is our responsibility to witness for Christ in deed and in word, and to ceaselessly pray for the salvation of all souls.

Remind me, in the Latin tradition, is it said that there are people suffering in Hell right now? If there are, then based on what you say, it would still indeed be possible for them to be reconciled at the Last Judgement, correct? Sorry, I've been an inquirer in the Orthodox Church and away from the Catholic Church for so long, I'm starting to forget things about the Latin theological tradition--not that I was a seasoned vet at it in the first place!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Remind me, in the Latin tradition, is it said that there are people suffering in Hell right now? If there are, then based on what you say, it would still indeed be possible for them to be reconciled at the Last Judgement, correct? Sorry, I've been an inquirer in the Orthodox Church and away from the Catholic Church for so long, I'm starting to forget things about the Latin theological tradition--not that I was a seasoned vet at it in the first place!

As far as I know, it's not really said if there are people in hell right now or not. We believe that hell exists and that at least the fallen angels are there, but we can't really comment on what humans, if any, are there. Some theologians have said that maybe only one or two people are there. We don't know. But then there's other, more conservative types, who believe that there's a large number of people in hell and even that most people are going to hell. (I tend to take the view that most people are going to Purgatory, myself, since I view what gets you into hell as a very serious conscious transgression that I don't see evidence of most people making.) So there are actually different camps of opinion here and neither one is doctrine required for belief, as far as I know. You could find support for both views. Some of the early Church Fathers believed in universal reconciliation and other "heavy hitters" in the Church didn't. So I suppose both views are acceptable for belief.

An article on the discussion of how many are in hell:
How Many Are Saved? - By Father Robert Barron

Some references about Catholic belief in universal reconciliation:
Universal Salvation and the Roman Catholic Church

So whether anyone is in hell or not, we may certainly still hold to the hope that all souls will reconcile with God, perhaps even the devil and his angels as well. But, as always, it is up to them. I personally do believe in universal reconciliation because the Book of Revelation makes it clear that, when God renews all of creation, death and hell will be destroyed. So how could hell be a necessarily eternal state when hell itself will be destroyed?

 

[roger1440]

i dont know if the title of this post really gets across my question. what i mean is, can a person, who has never read the bible, and never met a christian and had a conversation about it, come to know jesus and be saved? like a native in the amazon jungle, who has never had any opportunity to meet a christian, or read the bible, what would happen to him? or even, lets say back in....800 ad for example, what happened to , for example, the japanese? they never had any opportunity to know anything about christianity. up until europeans started exploring (and conquering) the world, the rest of the world didnt really have any chance of knowing anything about christianity. what happened to these people?

*edit* i forgot my other question. i wonder, can a person who has never read the bible, and never met a christian, can they without either, come to be a christian on their own? can a person who is a blank slate, come to be a christian on their own, without any of these resources? or would you need someone and or the bible to teach you to become a christian?

Please define “saved” and “Christian”.

 

[Shiranui117]

As far as I know, it's not really said if there are people in hell right now or not. We believe that hell exists and that at least the fallen angels are there, but we can't really comment on what humans, if any, are there. Some theologians have said that maybe only one or two people are there. We don't know. But then there's other, more conservative types, who believe that there's a large number of people in hell and even that most people are going to hell. (I tend to take the view that most people are going to Purgatory, myself, since I view what gets you into hell as a very serious conscious transgression that I don't see evidence of most people making.) So there are actually different camps of opinion here and neither one is doctrine required for belief, as far as I know. You could find support for both views. Some of the early Church Fathers believed in universal reconciliation and other "heavy hitters" in the Church didn't. So I suppose both views are acceptable for belief.

An article on the discussion of how many are in hell:
How Many Are Saved? - By Father Robert Barron

Some references about Catholic belief in universal reconciliation:
Universal Salvation and the Roman Catholic Church

So whether anyone is in hell or not, we may certainly still hold to the hope that all souls will reconcile with God, perhaps even the devil and his angels as well. But, as always, it is up to them.

Alright, thank you for the clarification.

I personally do believe in universal reconciliation because the Book of Revelation makes it clear that, when God renews all of creation, death and hell will be destroyed. So how could hell be a necessarily eternal state when hell itself will be destroyed?

It should be noted that "hell" in the book of Revelation (as well as throughout much of the Old and New Testaments) should actually be rendered "Hades," the Greek term for Hebrew "Sheol," or the abode of the dead pre-Resurrection and pre-Last Judgement. It's the same place Christ went to as stated in the Apostle's Creed. (He descended into hell...) "Hell" used to be a Germanic equivalent of Sheol/Hades, but over the centuries, Hell has instead become a synonym for the Lake of Fire/Gehenna mentioned in Revelation and spoken of by Jesus. So keep in mind that, even while most translations say "Hell", they should probably update their language and use "Hades" or "Sheol" instead. In the case of Revelation, it should say "Death and Hades" instead of "Death and hell". Either that, or we need to move "Hell" back to its original meaning and find another name for the Lake of Fire/Gehenna, or just use "Gehenna" outright.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Alright, thank you for the clarification.

You're welcome.

It should be noted that "hell" in the book of Revelation (as well as throughout much of the Old and New Testaments) should actually be rendered "Hades," the Greek term for Hebrew "Sheol," or the abode of the dead pre-Resurrection and pre-Last Judgement. It's the same place Christ went to as stated in the Apostle's Creed. (He descended into hell...) "Hell" used to be a Germanic equivalent of Sheol/Hades, but over the centuries, Hell has instead become a synonym for the Lake of Fire/Gehenna mentioned in Revelation and spoken of by Jesus. So keep in mind that, even while most translations say "Hell", they should probably update their language and use "Hades" or "Sheol" instead. In the case of Revelation, it should say "Death and Hades" instead of "Death and hell". Either that, or we need to move "Hell" back to its original meaning and find another name for the Lake of Fire/Gehenna, or just use "Gehenna" outright.

Well, the translation I tend to use (the Catholic editions of the RSV), it does say "Hades".

I'm a bit confused now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you think that when everyone dies, they go to a sort of waiting place until the Last Judgement occurs? Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying.

 

[Sand Dancer]

If you believe in original sin, then the fall would need a savior. If you don't, then the view is that we are basically good and not in need of a savior.

 

[Shiranui117]

Well, the translation I tend to use (the Catholic editions of the RSV), it does say "Hades".

I'm a bit confused now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you think that when everyone dies, they go to a sort of waiting place until the Last Judgement occurs? Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying.

Yes, that's correct. In Byzantine theology (among both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox alike), all the dead go to the place/state Hades and are subject to a particular judgement that gives them a foretaste of either Heaven or Hell--except the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and perhaps the Saints, who are already in Heaven. Though, no one (except Mary and the Saints, as mentioned) actually goes to Heaven or Hell until after the Last Judgement. In Byzantine belief, there is currently no human in Hell whatsoever; there are only those who are receiving a foretaste of Hell while they sojourn in Hades. This is why we pray for all of the dead in our Liturgies, not just those in Purgatory. Since no one is yet in Hell, and since we know that prayers for the dead are somehow effective, we pray for everyone who has ever died. We can even pray for Judas Iscariot, Stalin and Hitler, if we so choose, that they may be spared from Hell by God's grace and be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven. IOW, the outcomes of the particular judgement are not necessarily identical with those of the Last Judgement; people who receive a foretaste of Hell at the particular judgement may be granted Heaven at the Last Judgement.

 

[Shiranui117]

If you believe in original sin, then the fall would need a savior. If you don't, then the view is that we are basically good and not in need of a savior.

In Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, we don't believe in original sin, and believe that humanity is intrinsically good. But we still do believe that humanity is fallen and in need of a Savior.

 

[hexler]

We were never fallen, because we rise from the material world to the spiritual world - that means humanity as a whole. I would not chose the word "saviour" but the word "teacher"! Because what the christians call "sin" is only a sort of underdevelopment. Therefore God will never end sending us Messengers.

 

[rusra02]

You are correct in saying many persons have had little or no contact with true Christianity. So can they be saved? I believe the answer is yes. The Bible promises that the dead will be resurrected after God's Kingdom takes over control of the earth. Under the rule of God's Kingdom, as Isaiah 11:9 promises, "the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah As the waters cover the sea." Thereafter, each person will decide whether they will obey God or not. Today, people are being given the opportunity to know God, but relatively few are doing so, IMO. (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[hexler]

You are correct in saying many persons have had little or no contact with true Christianity. So can they be saved? I believe the answer is yes. The Bible promises that the dead will be resurrected after God's Kingdom takes over control of the earth. Under the rule of God's Kingdom, as Isaiah 11:9 promises, "the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah As the waters cover the sea." Thereafter, each person will decide whether they will obey God or not. Today, people are being given the opportunity to know God, but relatively few are doing so, IMO. (Matthew 24:37-39)

I agree with you, that "the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of God" when God's Kingdow will rule. But what has it to do with Christianity? You can compare it that way: Are you proud having learned the ABC when you graduate? Remember what Jesus said:
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. (John 16:12-14)
One must ponder about each word. Because it says "he will speak only what he hears".
That means clearly a personage who is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sand Dancer]

In Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism, we don't believe in original sin, and believe that humanity is intrinsically good. But we still do believe that humanity is fallen and in need of a Savior.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, that's correct. In Byzantine theology (among both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox alike), all the dead go to the place/state Hades and are subject to a particular judgement that gives them a foretaste of either Heaven or Hell--except the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and perhaps the Saints, who are already in Heaven. Though, no one (except Mary and the Saints, as mentioned) actually goes to Heaven or Hell until after the Last Judgement. In Byzantine belief, there is currently no human in Hell whatsoever; there are only those who are receiving a foretaste of Hell while they sojourn in Hades. This is why we pray for all of the dead in our Liturgies, not just those in Purgatory. Since no one is yet in Hell, and since we know that prayers for the dead are somehow effective, we pray for everyone who has ever died. We can even pray for Judas Iscariot, Stalin and Hitler, if we so choose, that they may be spared from Hell by God's grace and be admitted into the Kingdom of Heaven. IOW, the outcomes of the particular judgement are not necessarily identical with those of the Last Judgement; people who receive a foretaste of Hell at the particular judgement may be granted Heaven at the Last Judgement.

Ah, thanks for explaining. That makes a lot of sense.

Of course, Western Christianity believes that we are judged immediately after death and sent to our destination (or Purgatory, for those who need it). But whatever pleasures of Heaven or torments of hell are not complete until the Resurrection into glorified bodies that make the pleasures of Heaven or the torments of hell complete in their effects.

So we believe in two judgements for most people, except those still alive at the time of the Last Judgement.