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Can you believe in the infallabilty of the bible?

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
While I see no problem claiming it infallible, as long as it can't be disproved. It stands/works in terms of a faith-based religion.

The usual arguments are,

1) Some of the Genesis contents resemble other more ancient stories.
The Bible says that all humans are from the same origin (Adam-Noah), so it's logical that they shall share the same or similar story. They share the same/similar stories till Moses was assigned the job to write them down legitimately.

2) The perception of flaws in OT
That's pure subjective speculation. For an example, 2 detectives are assigned the job to examine a crime scene. They are faced with the same "evidence" but they might have different descriptions about the same scenario. A detetive might say that there are totally 10 bottles in the scene. The other might say that there are actually 12 bottles there. This is because the 1st detective never focused on the bottle, he just roughly counted the bottles and wrote the number down and regarded them as unimportant and not valuable to the investigation.

While the other detective paid special attention to the bottles because in his theory the bottles are directly related to the crime, so he counted them more carefully to say that there are 12 bottles there.

In terms of witnessing in a court, both testimony can be considered as valid though one said that there are 10 bottles while the other said that there are 12. 1000 years later, when this crime case is discussed, people may say that the documents are in contradiction, as one says there are 10 bottles while the other says 12. But they are not contradiction, the documents are still valid testimonies and the twe detectives are still valid witnesses.

It says humans are imperfect (they might count wrongly), but a valid testimony/witnessing doesn't necessarily depend on the perfection of humans. The testimonies can be considered perfect when are considered valid in a court to bring the criminals into justice.
 

Starsurfer93

Soul-Searcher
Well I certainly believe that it is possible for someone to have said belief.
Do I personally feel that way? No.
The primary reason for this is the fact that the Bible is a book originally written by man. Men are flawed, so by extension everything that man creates has the potential to be flawed. Had god ACTUALLY written the Bible, i.e. taken pen to paper and wrote everything that happened in the past and what he had said down, then the Bible being the infallible word of god would be easier to accept. The moment man was tasked with writing it however, the Bible became open to fallibility. Any additions, omissions or errors made by the writers due to their own personal beliefs and reasoning or simple incompetence could then make their way into the text.

This isn't to say there isn't a great deal of wisdom to be found in the Bible, mind you. It, like many other religious texts, has a treasure trove of life lessons and wisdom that strike a chord with its readers and helps them to live a good life. And that is what I feel is the most important aspect of the Bible or any religious text for that matter. Not "Is this text infallible?", but rather "What can this text teach me about myself and the world I live in?" :)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
While I see no problem claiming it infallible, as long as it can't be disproved.
Parts of it can be.
They share the same/similar stories till Moses was assigned the job to write them down legitimately.
Moses didn't write down anything.
It says humans are imperfect (they might count wrongly), but a valid testimony/witnessing doesn't necessarily depend on the perfection of humans. The testimonies can be considered perfect when are considered valid in a court to bring the criminals into justice.
This has nothing to do with "presenting evidence in court." It has everything to do with the problems of oral transmission and the fact that the ancients were far more concerned with story than they were with facts.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Moses didn't write down anything.

Even Jesus disagreed with that. Do you think that when he mentions Moses writing the Book of the Law that he was just playing off tradition that he didn't really believe?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Even Jesus disagreed with that. Do you think that when he mentions Moses writing the Book of the Law that he was just playing off tradition that he didn't really believe?
All you can really say is that someone wrote down that Jesus mentioned Moses writings. We can't really be sure it is true.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Even Jesus disagreed with that. Do you think that when he mentions Moses writing the Book of the Law that he was just playing off tradition that he didn't really believe?
No, the gospel writers wrote that Jesus said that.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Depends on the source they used for a particular quotation.

and how is that going to be determined?


it would be interesting if the gospel according to judas was more accurate to what jesus said then the fab fours version...but we will never know
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I personally view it as a heavily flawed book that has been changed and cannot be validated.

On the other hand the Quran is even worst as it has no flow and far more contradictions from the same author.
You made a claim to knowledge here and so the burden of proof is on you. In order to claim the bible has been changed and is flawed you must know:

  1. What was the original text that was later changed?
  2. When was it changed?
  3. What was it changed to?
  4. How is it any less valid than the others works of antiquity that are taught as factual and accurate in college everyday?
  5. What are the flaws?
Keep in mind I do know there are some changes in the bible. However they are few and far between and most are not meaningful.

I do not believe the Quran is from God and so will not defend it.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Keep in mind I do know there are some changes in the bible. However they are few and far between and most are not meaningful.
is this change meaningful?


matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 5:22 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verse 23.
[c]Matthew 5:22 Some manuscripts brother or sister without cause

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=NIV
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
is this change meaningful?


matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 5:22 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verse 23.
[c]Matthew 5:22 Some manuscripts brother or sister without cause

Matthew 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

I think that anytime Jesus is reported to have said something, it has meaning. The question isn't whether it's meaningful, but why it's meaningful -- and in what way it's meaningful. The thing we have to remember about the bible is that the gospels were never meant to be cut-and dried. They were simply "stories about Jesus," or "stuff Jesus said," that had circulated for some time by word of mouth. Detail wasn't nearly so important as the jist of the story. So, while the differences are interesting, they're not necessarily significant from a factual POV. I don't think Jesus ever expected that what he said would be written down and made part of the sacred texts.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I think that anytime Jesus is reported to have said something, it has meaning. The question isn't whether it's meaningful, but why it's meaningful -- and in what way it's meaningful. The thing we have to remember about the bible is that the gospels were never meant to be cut-and dried. They were simply "stories about Jesus," or "stuff Jesus said," that had circulated for some time by word of mouth. Detail wasn't nearly so important as the jist of the story. So, while the differences are interesting, they're not necessarily significant from a factual POV. I don't think Jesus ever expected that what he said would be written down and made part of the sacred texts.


and have his personhood altered to the point of being 1/3 of the god head, whatever that is...:shrug:
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
is this change meaningful?


matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.


Matthew 5:22 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verse 23.
[c]Matthew 5:22 Some manuscripts brother or sister without cause

Matthew 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

Is the issue here that you claim that one version says "without cause" and another does not? Or is it the who are our brothers and sisters thing?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Is the issue here that you claim that one version says "without cause" and another does not? Or is it the who are our brothers and sisters thing?
actually the choices are a fellow disciple or a brother or sister without cause (meaning being a fellow disciple isn't a cause to consider one a brother or a sister)

you pick.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
actually the choices are a fellow disciple or a brother or sister without cause (meaning being a fellow disciple isn't a cause to consider one a brother or a sister)

you pick.
If you want me to pick then the issue must not be very important.

Out of seventeen bible versions there was not one who translated the Greek to "brothers and sisters". I don't know where you got that from. Here is the definitions of adelphos:

1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles
d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

So it can mean any one of the definitions above so what do the experts say. By the way they know Greek much better than (either you or I).

The word "brother" here refers not merely to one to whom we are nearly related, having the same parent or parents, as the word is commonly used, but includes also a neighbor, or perhaps anyone with whom we may be associated. As all people are descended from one Father and are all the creatures of the same God, so they are all brethren: and so every man should be regarded and treated as a brother,
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
By "brother" is meant, not in a religious sense, one that is of the same faith, or in the same church state; nor, in a strict natural sense, one that is so in the bonds of consanguinity; but in a large sense, any man, of whatsoever country or nation: for we are to be angry with no man; that is, as is rightly added,
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
By our brother, here, we are to understand any person, though ever so much below us, for we are all made of one blood.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

I did not see a single commentator that described brother as a desciple, relation, or member of the same race in these verses. They kind of don't mnake sence that way. The blue letter bible also gives locations where adelphos is used in similar instances and everyone I checked had a universal meaning. There are places where it is used those other ways in other verses but not here.

I agree that without case being removed or added is a meaningful change but I have no idea how to research the causes behind this. While meaningful it is less than critical when the overall narrative is taken into account. Without cause is somewhat implied in the context of this issue. If you have cause then there is no injustice and so the punishments listed do not apply. I will keep an eye open for the backstory to these words but do not personally think them all that important but definately would include them in the meaningfull category.

This was a good example of bias. You found one verse that would help your point if you ignored all the other verses that say to not murder without any qualifications. The verse you selected only helped you if you selected a certain meaning for a word that violates the overall bible message and context for the verses as well as not agreed with by any major commentator. That is some selective scholarship. Once again if your position relies entirely on contrived issues is it worth the effort?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If you want me to pick then the issue must not be very important.

Out of seventeen bible versions there was not one who translated the Greek to "brothers and sisters". I don't know where you got that from. Here is the definitions of adelphos:

1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles
d) Christians,
as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

So it can mean any one of the definitions above so what do the experts say. By the way they know Greek much better than (either you or I).

right, i'm glad you finally caught up...so which one is it...there are manuscripts that use the definitions 4 and 6
as per the NIV

Matthew 5:22
New International Version (NIV)
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[a] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[c] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Footnotes:
Matthew 5:22 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verse 23.
Matthew 5:22 Some manuscripts brother or sister without cause
Matthew 5:22 An Aramaic term of contempt

Matthew 5:22 NIV - But I tell you that anyone who is angry - Bible Gateway

there is a world of difference between a fellow man and a brethren in christ
a brother and sister and a brethren in christ, belonging to the same people and and a brethren in christ....right?

I did not see a single commentator that described brother as a desciple, relation, or member of the same race in these verses.
so what it's there isn't it?
translated by these folks
Committee on Bible Translation


This was a good example of bias.


here's another one for ya captain...
mark 14:60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

guess what...that dude died. so really he didn't get to see jesus at the right hand of the mighty one on a cloud did he...guess jesus was very mistaken...
in fact the other gospels that followed reconciled this embarrassing fact that they actually omitted the entire gist of jesus claiming of having the sanhedrin the opportunity of witnessing his return .... convenient, huh?
 
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