• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Can you believe in the infallabilty of the bible?

1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
waitasec said:
why would this matter to you?

are you in the mood for some judging?
Click to expand...
Why would, why it matters to me, matter to you? I am just curious as it seems incosistent to me personally but I am sure Sojourner will have a sound and logical reason even if I do not agree with it. I appreciate a good claim and can respect an honest and reasonable stance even if I do not understand it. You might try it sometime. Just Joshing.
 
1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
sojourner said:
Because my faith is not solely derived from "what the bible says," but mainly from the Tradition -- actions of my parents and people of faith whom I've met and trusted.

The bible is as unreliable as we are in its use of verifiable fact. But it is what it is: a theological treatment of the Tradition of God's people. In that treatment it is consistent and reliable, provided we exegete the texts carefully. The value of the bible isn't in the truth it contains, but in its ability to foster any number of interpretations that mirror the wide variety of God's created order.

God "allows" "corruption" (if I take your meaning correctly) of the texts in the same way that God "allows" "corruption" of humankind. I don't believe God is either a micromanager or a control freak. I don't see the texts as "watered down" in any way. There have been some translational problems, and some things have been lost -- and that's a shame, but not devastating to the Faith. I think the texts are remarkably well-preserved from the earliest we have, and I think those are fairly reliable in terms of reporting quotations and events -- especially the NT.

God has always used a fallible humanity to achieve God's purposes -- and most of the time it seems God uses the worst of us: Liars, thieves, and whores. That's the beauty of grace -- that broken vessels can still carry God.
Click to expand...
I believe your confidence in the reliability of the bible is higher than the impression a person gets from your posts given the nature of the issues. Reasonable answer.

However you did not say whether you want to dig into Thomas or not. The more I find out the more trouble it's in and so you must have a completely different set of facts concerning it than are readily available and I was curious.
 
Last edited:
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
1robin said:
I believe your confidence in the reliability of the bible is higher than the impression a person gets from your posts given the nature of the issues. Reasonable answer.

However you did not say whether you want to dig into Thomas or not. The more I find out the more trouble it's in and so you must have a completely different set of facts concerning it than are readily available and I was curious.
Click to expand...
I'd have to dig out my class work on Thomas, which is buried and I don't have time to find right now.
 
1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
waitasec said:
english please
Click to expand...
You are plenty intelligent enough to see through my grammer. Ah, but for the will to do so........




well, as i have been saying all along it is based on subjective understanding....
Click to expand...
Is a retreat to ineffective and irrelevant labels a debate tactic? I never mentioned what it means to be a Christian. I just found two things mutually inconsistent personally but allow for the likely hood that THAT may not be anothers view even IF WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS, IS NOT SUBJECTIVE. There are many paths that lead up to salvation but they have an objective singularity, the cross.
 
A

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Jesus said in the Bible, "greater works then these you will do." When will Bible believers and Jesus followers start doing a greater work then walking on water, raising people from being dead, and resurrecting themselves?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Awoon said:
Jesus said in the Bible, "greater works then these you will do." When will Bible believers and Jesus followers start doing a greater work then walking on water, raising people from being dead, and resurrecting themselves?
Click to expand...
Jesus didn't resurrect himself. Jesus was resurrected by God -- therefore, not an act of Jesus. We have raised people from the dead. It's called CPR. We have gone beyond walking on water to walking on the moon.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jayhawker Soule said:
You've descended into rhetorical silliness ... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
How? You're saying humanity hasn't accomplished these things? Jesus was speaking to people who were largely helpless. Most human beings today have far more power over their lives than the ones to whom Jesus was speaking.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
sojourner said:
Jesus didn't resurrect himself. Jesus was resurrected by God -- therefore, not an act of Jesus. We have raised people from the dead. It's called CPR. We have gone beyond walking on water to walking on the moon.
Click to expand...

Walking on Water without technology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using Advanced Technology to go to space. Using CPR cannot ressurect a person who is long dead and "starting to stink" as the story at least describes the situation.
Jesus said in the Bible, "greater works then these you will do." When will Bible believers and Jesus followers start doing a greater work then walking on water, raising people from being dead, and resurrecting themselves?
Click to expand...
Indeed, Jesus allegedly said that those who truly "believe on him" will do works greater than him. And if only those who 'believe on him" are those who are saved, and none of those who claim to believe on him are walking on water or greater, what does that tell us?
 
Last edited:
1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Shermana said:
Walking on Water without technology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using Advanced Technology to go to space. Using CPR cannot ressurect a person who is long dead and "starting to stink" as the story at least describes the situation.
Indeed, Jesus allegedly said that those who truly "believe on him" will do works greater than him. And if only those who 'believe on him" are those who are saved, and none of those who claim to believe on him are walking on water or greater, what does that tell us?
Click to expand...
This is a confusing verse. My interpretation has been that while he healed a few dozens and preached to a few thousands modern day Christians have cured Polio or other diseases and have spead the gospel to billions. Greater doesn't necessarily mean more miraculous just a larger impact.

TABLE II
NOTABLE INVENTIONS, DISCOVERIES

OR DEVELOPMENTS BY CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS​
CONTRIBUTIONSCIENTISTABSOLUTE TEMPERATURE SCALELORD KELVIN (1824-1907)ACTUARIAL TABLESCHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)BAROMETERBLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)BIOGENESIS LAWLOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)CALCULATING MACHINECHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)CHLOROFORMJAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)CLASSIFICATION SYSTEMCAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)DOUBLE STARSWILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)ELECTRIC GENERATORMICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)ELECTRIC MOTORJOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)EPHEMERIS TABLESJOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)FERMENTATION CONTROLLOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)GALVANOMETERJOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)GLOBAL STAR CATALOGJOHN HERSCHEL (1792-1871)INERT GASES WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)KALEIDOSCOPEDAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)LAW OF GRAVITYISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)MINE SAFETY LAMPHUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)PASTEURIZATIONLOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)REFLECTING TELESCOPEISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)SCIENTIFIC METHODFRANCIS BACON (1561-1626)SELF-INDUCTIONJOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)TELEGRAPHSAMUEL F.B. MORSE (1791-1872)THERMIONIC VALVEAMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)TRANS-ATLANTIC CABLELORD KELVIN (1824-1907)VACCINATION & IMMUNIZATION LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
http://www.icr.org/article/185/302/
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jayhawker Soule said:
It has significance to any discussion about historicity, but to therefore claim ...in simply dishonest and ludicrous.
Click to expand...
Oh, I see. So one source outside the scriptural texts that doesn't particularly lionize Jesus as being special in any supernatural way completely overshadows all the biblical texts and renders them "dishonest and ludicrous."

Anyone with a brain stem can see by the most cursory and rudimentary examination that Luke is clearly drawing a comparison between Jesus and Augustus (who, BTW, was considered to be "more than just a person" by the Romans). That comparison alone ought to be enough to settle that little argument for anyone who's in an honest argument about whether Jesus was viewed as "more than just a person."
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Walking on Water without technology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using Advanced Technology to go to space. Using CPR cannot ressurect a person who is long dead and "starting to stink" as the story at least describes the situation.
Click to expand...
Careful, Nazarene. You're gonna dig yourself a hole, here.
Indeed, Jesus allegedly said that those who truly "believe on him" will do works greater than him. And if only those who 'believe on him" are those who are saved, and none of those who claim to believe on him are walking on water or greater, what does that tell us?
Click to expand...
What does it, indeed, tell us about Nazarenes who don't walk on water?
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
This is a confusing verse. My interpretation has been that while he healed a few dozens and preached to a few thousands modern day Christians have cured Polio or other diseases and have spead the gospel to billions. Greater doesn't necessarily mean more miraculous just a larger impact.
Click to expand...
Muslim scientists contributed much of the great share of scientific advances during the medieval era. Atheists have invented many vaccines. The context was clearly referring to his acts like healing and feeding people with miracles, it can only be talking about miracles unless you want to explain why both Christians and Muslims and Atheists all share in your interpretation. Besides, how does the miracles of the Apostles in Acts in any way jive with this interpretation? How does Peter and Paul raising people from the dead jive with that? Why were Peter and Paul able to raise the dead but not modern "Christians"?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top