can you proove there isn't a deity?

[1robin]

Read National Geographic every once in awhile. After you've done that for a few years, try some anthropology reviews.

I have and that is not proof of anything. Still waiting.

I've told you and told you that Bandwagon arguments don't work with me.

They work in court rooms.

I guess if you'd been a German in 1935, you'd have argued that everyone hates Jews, and so it's OK to hate Jews?

What thte heck was that?

There is nothing at stake except clear thought, which is why I'm trying to help you.

That is like Stalin helping the peace core.

Eternal salvation? The soul? I'm sorry, friend, but those are stories told to us by ancient shepherds.

And experienced by billions.

I'm sorry. But we have to live our lives based on what is most likely true -- not on what we wish to be true. It's the only way we can grow.

Most of the rest of us do, try it.

 

[1robin]

I lived amongst 'Christians' for an extended time, who also actively practiced ancestor worship, believed in witch doctors, and a local form of sorcery. Don't ask me how they reconcile these things, but they did, at least to some degree.
(Papua New Guinea)

The vast majority of Christianity (at least 95%) do not believe in any of those things and the Bible forbids them beyond just about anything else. I have no idea what lessons can be taken from the slight exceptions and applied to the rule. You judge a teacher by the students that listen not by the ones that do the opposite.

They would see portents and signs in all sorts of things. I got slightly worried when there was a snake living under my house, not because of the snake itself (no poisonous snakes where I was) but because they were seen by some of the less educated locals as reincarnated spirits of evil ancestors. If they worked out I was an atheist it might not have gone over particularly well. Bad enough I told them I didn't follow a religion.

I also had to have stern words with some of the mixed race kids I taught, since they were throwing rocks at the house of a dwarf who lived a hermit-like existence out in the jungle. Had a chat to their parents, and one parent (full-blood local woman) defended their actions, since everyone knew little people did dark sorcery.

There was also a legal case I can probably dig up, where a witch doctor was murdered in cold blood, and the defendant was cleared on grounds of self-defence. Reasoning was something like the defendant and the witch doctor had argued over a woman, and the defendant had reasonable grounds to believe their life was in danger, as they couldn't find their hairbrush (hair being needed for sorcery, obviously).

The court wasn't stating that sorcery was real, but they were stating that the defendant honestly believed themselves in immediate danger. This wasn't a case of insanity, or anything. Self-defence.

I am not sure what it is your trying to conclude. There are nuts in every group especially one as large and diverse as Christianity. I have no idea what the point of your premise is.

I made no claims about sincere belief. I made a distinction between billions who claim to have had an experience and a few who have and between agreement with a intellectual proposition and a witnessed event.

 

[1robin]

Yes Africa, but also starving people in Russia, and alcohol related wasting, in disenfranchised Alaska natives. I was lucky enough to be sent off with several different exchange groups while I was studying.

How is it possible a relief group sat and watched a person die from hunger. Why was half of whatever the westerners had was not given to the dying person? I believe you (I think) it just makes little sense.

The Russian exchange was very interesting. We traveled across the country examining mutual problems, such as poverty, and overpopulation, and also met with survivors of Chernobyl. They were young children when the meltdown occurred, and the majority were now dying from wasting caused by the radiation.

I am not disagreeing with over population but did you know every human of earth could stand in a single county in Florida alone? Stalin's atheistic utopia killed more people by famine a thousand times over than anything else did. Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth, socialism is the equal distribution of poverty.

As I've said before, I worked with the Salvation Army for years.

That is great.

Imagine my surprise when I was walking through Red Square, and suddenly heard a band playing Amazing Grace. I went over to take a look, and it was a Salvation Army Band in full uniform. LOL!

Amazing grace was written by a slave boat captain who came to faith and fought against slavery. It gives me chills. That song and a song called "spiritual" by Johnny Cash are the most moving songs I have ever heard.

Russian highlights - got to cross the country on an old fashioned train - think Orient Express. Cakes and Tea were brought each evening, in Blue glass cups and plates with silver filigree holders. And best of all, I got to see a performance by the Bolshoi Ballet.

That would be interesting. How is it exactly that you were sent to all these places? Did you have to pay or agree to some contract of some kind?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I have and that is not proof of anything. Still waiting.

If you don't believe there are still animists in the world, I don't think I can help you.

[Bandwagon arguments] work in court rooms.

OK. I am the jury, and I declare your arguments to have failed. Sorry.

What thte heck was that?

Read it again. Study it. If bandwagon arguments sway you, then you would have been a 'good German' in 1935, yes? You would have jumped on the bandwagon and hated the Jews?

That is like Stalin helping the peace core.

Corps. It means 'body', as in Corpus Christi and corpse and such.

 

[Sees]

The vast majority of Christianity (at least 95%) do not believe in any of those things and the Bible forbids them beyond just about anything else.

The majority do believe in these things but simply call it something else, even here in America. For hundreds of years many if not majority western Christians just added Jesus in with the nature spirits and all other pre-Christian goodies.

Laying of the hands, speaking in tongues, and prayer (well over 90% of Christians pray - fair guess?) is definitely in the witch-doctor and sorcery realm.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Laying of the hands, speaking in tongues, and prayer (well over 90% of Christians pray - fair guess?) is definitely in the witch-doctor and sorcery realm.

You forgot prophecy. Even otherwise rational-seeming Jews apparently believe that God told some men to write down messianic prophecies back in the day, and they reject Jesus based on their opinion that he didn't fulfill those prophecies.

1robin and other conservative Christians actually point to prophecy as proof that the Bible is true. Lots of religionists still believe in magic.

 

[Sees]

It's only bad, evil, superstitious, primitive... when other people do it, or do it different than the way I do it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It's only bad, evil, superstitious, primitive... when other people do it, or do it different than the way I do it.

Do you believe that a conscious, omniscient Being whispers knowledge of future events into the ears of His chosen prophets?

If you do (or if I do), I would call that a belief in magic.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do not agree with that persons statement but experiential reality is as reliable a fact of reality as any other for the one who has it. In many ways all "known" realities are experiential.

And then there are shared realities.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes Africa, but also starving people in Russia, and alcohol related wasting, in disenfranchised Alaska natives. I was lucky enough to be sent off with several different exchange groups while I was studying.

How is it possible a relief group sat and watched a person die from hunger. Why was half of whatever the westerners had was not given to the dying person? I believe you (I think) it just makes little sense.

Seeing someone die from hunger, is not the same as standing by while they die. Children dying from starvation are brought into hospitals, many of which are just makeshift. That is where we saw children actually pass away. They were too far gone to be helped. Very sad. Makes one realize how lucky we are.

I am not disagreeing with over population but did you know every human of earth could stand in a single county in Florida alone? Stalin's atheistic utopia killed more people by famine a thousand times over than anything else did. Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth, socialism is the equal distribution of poverty.

However, they wouldn't be able to feed themselves, would kill all life sustaining vegetation and animals, and would die from disease brought on by their own feces.

Over population is an equation of sustainability.

Russian highlights - got to cross the country on an old fashioned train - think Orient Express. Cakes and Tea were brought each evening, in Blue glass cups and plates with silver filigree holders. And best of all, I got to see a performance by the Bolshoi Ballet.

That would be interesting. How is it exactly that you were sent to all these places? Did you have to pay or agree to some contract of some kind?

These were all studies related exchanges while I was in high school and college. Most were funded by grants, however sometime you have to match funds. Several required you to have a credit card, for emergencies. LOL!

Part of the Russian exchange was backed by the Russian Government. They arranged for housing in Russia, and flew us in on the Military Aeroflot. We flew from Anchorage, Alaska to Magadan, Russia, where we switched to Military Aeroflot. Interestingly, these officers actually allowed us into the cockpit to see the controls and talk to the pilots. They even handed out Aeroflot pins. LOL.

It probably helped that my mother was an educator, and was a Superintendent of Schools for the State of Alaska by the time I was in high school. She made sure I was aware of all opportunities for foreign study and travel that crossed her desk.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The vast majority of Christianity (at least 95%) do not believe in any of those things and the Bible forbids them beyond just about anything else. I have no idea what lessons can be taken from the slight exceptions and applied to the rule. You judge a teacher by the students that listen not by the ones that do the opposite.

Globally, sure. In PNG that is not accurate. We are talking a country where 96% of the population identify as Christian. Far higher than almost anywhere you could name. Religious education is taught throughout the school system.

Apart from that, less than 1% are Bahá'í, and there are maybe a couple of thousand Muslims in TOTAL, with almost all of those being immigrants.

In this overwhelmingly Christian country, you will receive as many stories as you like about personal experiences with God, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, etc. You will, from the SAME SOURCES receive detailed descriptions of their personal experiences with sorcery, the conversations they have with ancestors and/or animalistic totems.

I am not sure what it is your trying to conclude. There are nuts in every group especially one as large and diverse as Christianity. I have no idea what the point of your premise is.

Colloquially, I would happily agree with you that the place is nuts. Completely. But talking more seriously, I cannot write off a country of 4 million people as an exception. They are currently holding a seminar on how to deal with sorcery-related killings, and are considering (or maybe already have) taken sorcery off the list of illegal activities. This is a primitive country, where Christianity has been introduced through sometimes dubious means, and sometimes in a sincere effort to assist and benefit the community. In both cases, this has led to the successful integration of Christianity into the community in a more comprehensive fashion than almost anywhere else you could point to.

As the country becomes more sophisticated, and more educated (assuming that actually occurs), the sophistication of their beliefs will similarly increase. Those professing to have spoken to their ancestors via pagan rituals will eventually be marginilised. Those professing to have spoken to God will not be.

Prior to Christian missionaries landing in PNG, exactly 0% of the population claimed to have experienced God. Amazingly, God started visiting after knowledge of him was communicated by gift-giving missionaries. Prior to Christian missionaries, ritualistic communication with ancestors and belief in sorcery was largely universal. It's still distressingly high (err...I could give a rats what people believe, but their belief in sorcery has unfortunate consequences, to say the least), but it is waning, replaced by more socially acceptable, and sophisticated beliefs.

I made no claims about sincere belief. I made a distinction between billions who claim to have had an experience and a few who have and between agreement with a intellectual proposition and a witnessed event.

I'm talking a whole, overwhelmingly Christian country. Sure, it's a dot in terms of total belief. But what sample size do I need? 4 million people is a significant sample size, and their exposure to Christianity is both more recent, and more immediately accessible to me from personal experience, as well as via the media (Australian sources...I'm sure PNG doesn't register much in the States, but it was an Australian protectorate until 1974).

My point is that our backgrounds and our beliefs seem to inform our experiences (certainly in terms of the supernatural, at least). I'm not seeking to convince you, but when you talk about people not having actually experienced the thunder and lightning God, you are talking in terms of absolute truth. They may very well believe that they have experienced it. This is the same light by which I see Christianity.

You can mention how there are billions of Christians, but it doesn't matter to me. I have named a country of 4 million Christians as an example that personal experience is not compelling.

IN terms of the OP, I would put up my hand and say I don't think I can prove there's no deity. I think I already have (who remembers?!). But the point I was trying to make is that there are SUBSTANTIAL numbers of people who honestly believe to have had experiences other than Christian in nature. Do I discount these?
Yes? But not Christian?
Why? Because of how many Christians there are? Nup...it's not compelling to me, at all. I have seen why people believe things...truth is generally down the list. I don't believe for a second that you would toss out your Christian beliefs if the world changed, and Islam became the most numerous religion. I wouldn't expect you to, and it wouldn't make logical sense to me. For myself, I am believing in what I have seen reason to believe in. Nothing more.

 

[Sonofason]

Seriously?


That is the worst attempt at an analogy I have ever read!


Very real science behind dying from lack of food!


Very real people dying all over the world from hunger!


And you equate that to not seeing, and still believing in, an invisible being?????



*

Actually, there is no science behind dying from a lack of food. People die from a lack of food whether or not science agrees. Science is knowedge. You don't have to have any knowledge to die from a lack of food. I've never seen anyone die of starvation. So I don't know for certain if the science is even true. I believe it's true, but I've never seen any proof. Have you?

 

[Sonofason]

Yes I have. Believe it or not some people get out in the world. (though such obviously isn't necessary, as we know how starvation works.) I have been on several peace/relief missions. As I've posted here before, I also worked with the Salvation Army for years. I saw the results of hunger on these people.



*

Oh, that's great. So you have evidence. I don't.

 

[Sonofason]

Sticking to the same old guns? Alrighty then. But do you at the very least admit that there is demonstrable evidence for starvation but there has yet to be demonstrable evidence (or even weak evidence really) for god? I mean I can say that I haven't seen New York so its possible Spider Man is there. I mean you surely believe that the President of the united states exists but you've never "seen" him.

That seems to be what your argument boils down to. And if thats what it is then fine I just want you to understand that

I've seen the man on television who claims to be the President of the United States. I've heard him speak as if he were. I saw his name on the election ballot. There's quite a bit of evidence I've seen that he is indeed the current president. But I have not seen any evidence that hunger leads to death. I've seen what people claim are starving people. I've seen dead bodies of people that other's claim have died from starvation. I've never seen anyone die of starvation. The connection has not been made. I believe it's true. Why don't you trust that I have faith in what the scientists say. I do. But I've just not been convinced necessarily by any solid evidence. I've been convinced as a result of claims.

 

[Ingledsva]

Seriously?


That is the worst attempt at an analogy I have ever read!


Very real science behind dying from lack of food!


Very real people dying all over the world from hunger!


And you equate that to not seeing, and still believing in, an invisible being?????

1. & 2. Actually, there is no science behind dying from a lack of food. People die from a lack of food whether or not science agrees. Science is knowedge. You don't have to have any knowledge to die from a lack of food. 3. I've never seen anyone die of starvation. So I don't know for certain if the science is even true. I believe it's true, but I've never seen any proof. Have you?

1. - this is a repeat - may I suggest you go back several pages and read what we wrote on this subject.

2. - Don't twist what I said. Obviously you don't need science to die from starvation, however, dying in all aspects has been studied. This is obviously why we know basically how long we can go without food, water, nutrients, fats, etc.

3. Go back and read - the answer is YES, I have seen someone die from starvation. The child was too far gone, and they couldn't save him.


4. The horrid attempt - saying because one has not personally seen a real person die from starvation, - you can somehow equate that to not having seen an invisible being, - but it being real, - is absolutely ridiculous. We can see real people die from starvation.


Want to see someone die from wasting - make friends with a cancer patient, or visit a last stop ward for dying alcoholics, or make a trip to a third world country like Africa.


*

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I've seen the man on television who claims to be the President of the United States. I've heard him speak as if he were. I saw his name on the election ballot. There's quite a bit of evidence I've seen that he is indeed the current president. But I have not seen any evidence that hunger leads to death. I've seen what people claim are starving people. I've seen dead bodies of people that other's claim have died from starvation. I've never seen anyone die of starvation. The connection has not been made. I believe it's true. Why don't you trust that I have faith in what the scientists say. I do. But I've just not been convinced necessarily by any solid evidence. I've been convinced as a result of claims.

It seems you have a misunderstanding of the term "evidence".

 

[kloth]

"Deities" are humans pretending not to be "Deities."

yeah? prove it then. :slap:

eh, maybe you're right.

Hello Kloth,

Those that claim there's no God know within themselves that God exists but denies it because they don't want to consider themselves responsible for their wrongs.

maybe so. some people are horrifying afraid of death it seems like, even if they are real old, lived a life that was full and are at home in bed on their death bed, with family/loved ones all around. I can see them not wanting the party to stop, but some people act like something or someone is waiting for them into death.
makes me wonder, what did you?
I was worried more just going to the principals office back in school.

Too date, all evidence points towards man creating all deities ever created.

as far as you know, huh?

I agree. I have had several conversations with certain atheists who were emphatic that no god exists. I can't say they were 100% certain in their belief, but they were so certain that I can safely assume for purposes of this discussion to say that they were 100% certain.

I personally cannot fathom someone being so certain of anything for which there is absolutely no evidence. After all, the only evidence that an atheist can possibly put forth is to claim that they themselves have never seen any actual evidence of God, as if a lack of evidence is evidence of anything. The only reasonable position for a person who lacks evidence of God is the agnostic position.

I think what we got here is some people wanna know everything...at least more than everyone else. people in forums are certainly no different.

I have no evidence to show concerning the existence of God other than claims made by real people that God exists. I also have my own claim that God exists. It is my belief that I experience God. Most of the beliefs I have, I have because I have been convinced to believe them. There is no evidence that I am delusional. There is no evidence that I am lying. I assure you I am not. I have never experienced an invisible purple dragon, but I have experienced God. Ask any believer, and he will tell you that he has never experienced invisible purple dragons, but most will tell you that they do experience God. To me, there is a distinct difference between a belief in invisible purple dragons and a belief in God. Do you want to believe in God, if there is an existent God? Then I would suggest following the footsteps of those who believe in God, and those who claim to experience God. Do you want to believe there is no God? Then I would suggest following the footsteps of those who do not believe in God, and those who claim to never experience God.

how would you know if you are delusional?
so your god is a feeling you feel inside?
never trust a stranger when they assure you they are not lying. not that YOU are.
I don't care if I believe in god or any kind of deity. so far, no religion, church, temple or kind of bible sounds appealing to me.

but there is an answer out there on what is real and what's not to this question. it's a matter of where, who and maybe when do we get this answer, if we ever do.

 

[Ouroboros]

Let's see, how many people believe that there is an invisible purple dragon sitting on your desk?

And

How many people believe that a God exists?

See the difference?

Appeal to majority?

How many people believe Jesus was the son of God? (1/3rd of the world)

How many people do not believe Jesus was the son of God? (2/3rd of the world)

See the difference?

 

[Ouroboros]

Ah, so when Islam surpasses Christianity in number of followers, YHWH will not longer exist and Allah will begin to exist?

See the difference?

Yup. Supernatural beings pop in and out of existence based on majority belief. LOL!

And if you count all the Muslims (believe Jesus was only a prophet), Buddhists, Jews, non-believers, and so on, the number is in total larger than the Christians. Which means that based on a "majority belief argument" Jesus is not the son of God.

 

[Sonofason]

yeah? prove it then. :slap:

eh, maybe you're right.


maybe so. some people are horrifying afraid of death it seems like, even if they are real old, lived a life that was full and are at home in bed on their death bed, with family/loved ones all around. I can see them not wanting the party to stop, but some people act like something or someone is waiting for them into death.
makes me wonder, what did you?
I was worried more just going to the principals office back in school.


as far as you know, huh?


I think what we got here is some people wanna know everything...at least more than everyone else. people in forums are certainly no different.


how would you know if you are delusional?
so your god is a feeling you feel inside?
never trust a stranger when they assure you they are not lying. not that YOU are.
I don't care if I believe in god or any kind of deity. so far, no religion, church, temple or kind of bible sounds appealing to me.

but there is an answer out there on what is real and what's not to this question. it's a matter of where, who and maybe when do we get this answer, if we ever do.

It's reasonable to keep an open mind when it comes to the existence of God. The existence of God is quite reasonable.