can you proove there isn't a deity?

[Ingledsva]

Seriously?


That is the worst attempt at an analogy I have ever read!


Very real science behind dying from lack of food!


Very real people dying all over the world from hunger!


And you equate that to not seeing, and still believing in, an invisible being?????

Have you ever seen someone die from hunger? I have not. I've seen a few photos of people and claims associated with those photos, but I've never verified any of those claims.

Yes I have. Believe it or not some people get out in the world. (though such obviously isn't necessary, as we know how starvation works.) I have been on several peace/relief missions. As I've posted here before, I also worked with the Salvation Army for years. I saw the results of hunger on these people.



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[SkepticThinker]

The fact is I have more direct knowledge that God exists, because I experience Him, then I have that people can starve to death.

It sounds like you've detached yourself from reality.

We know living creatures can starve to death. It is a verifiable fact of reality.

 

[1robin]

It sounds like you've detached yourself from reality.

We know living creatures can starve to death. It is a verifiable fact of reality.

I do not agree with that persons statement but experiential reality is as reliable a fact of reality as any other for the one who has it. In many ways all "known" realities are experiential.

 

[1robin]

Yes I have. Believe it or not some people get out in the world. (though such obviously isn't necessary, as we know how starvation works.) I have been on several peace/relief missions. As I've posted here before, I also worked with the Salvation Army for years. I saw the results of hunger on these people.



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I of course know people die from hunger but have never seen anyone who has nor know anyone who has seen anyone who has. You are saying you have watched a person die from hunger? Where? When? I would also find it almost certain that Christian groups have done more to combat hunger than any other non national entity. We literally raise and supply millions from cradle to grave in Africa. It is actually counter productive. It only increases the numbers you have to feed exponentially but that is another issue.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I do not agree with that persons statement but experiential reality is as reliable a fact of reality as any other for the one who has it. In many ways all "known" realities are experiential.

You can still go places in the world where people experience the lightning and thunder gods.

Whenever a Christian points to his born-again experience as proof of Jehovah, I think of tribesmen pointing to the lightning as proof of their lightning god.

Sorry. That's how I see it.

 

[1robin]

You can still go places in the world where people experience the lightning and thunder gods.

Prove it.

Whenever a Christian points to his born-again experience as proof of Jehovah, I think of tribesmen pointing to the lightning as proof of their lightning god.

I am sure you do, and I am more sure that is ridiculous. If less than ten thousand people claim to agree with the intellectual concept of a thunder God, in what way is that comparable to 2 billion plus claiming to have experienced Christ. Less than 1% of the people who claim to have experienced Christ, claim to have experienced the North pole. I guess it does not exist in ambiguous land. There is no way you take what you say seriously. If we are talking politics that is one thing. Do you not realize what is potentially at stake here (you get this wrong and there is no escape, no excuse, no appeals to PC garbage, you loose it all)? You do not act as though you do.

Sorry. That's how I see it.

No you are not, but I am sorry for how you see things. You see them as they are not.

 

[McBell]

Prove it.

I am sure you do, and I am more sure that is ridiculous. If less than ten thousand people claim to agree with the intellectual concept of a thunder God, in what way is that comparable to 2 billion plus claiming to have experienced Christ. Less than 1% of the people who claim to have experienced Christ, claim to have experienced the North pole. I guess it does not exist in ambiguous land. There is no way you take what you say seriously. If we are talking politics that is one thing. Do you not realize what is potentially at stake here (you get this wrong and there is no escape, no excuse, no appeals to PC garbage, you loose it all)? You do not act as though you do.




No you are not, but I am sorry for how you see things. You see them as they are not.

Prove it.
Oops, no worries, i forgot you are a "faith" guy.
Interesting though, that you do not seem to be as lenient with other peoples faith as you are with your own.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Prove it.

Read National Geographic every once in awhile. After you've done that for a few years, try some anthropology reviews.

If less than ten thousand people claim to agree with the intellectual concept of a thunder God, in what way is that comparable to 2 billion plus claiming to have experienced Christ.

I've told you and told you that Bandwagon arguments don't work with me.

I guess if you'd been a German in 1935, you'd have argued that everyone hates Jews, and so it's OK to hate Jews?

Do you not realize what is potentially at stake here (you get this wrong and there is no escape, no excuse, no appeals to PC garbage, you loose it all)? You do not act as though you do.

There is nothing at stake except clear thought, which is why I'm trying to help you.

Eternal salvation? The soul? I'm sorry, friend, but those are stories told to us by ancient shepherds.

I'm sorry. But we have to live our lives based on what is most likely true -- not on what we wish to be true. It's the only way we can grow.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Prove it.

I lived amongst 'Christians' for an extended time, who also actively practiced ancestor worship, believed in witch doctors, and a local form of sorcery. Don't ask me how they reconcile these things, but they did, at least to some degree.
(Papua New Guinea)

They would see portents and signs in all sorts of things. I got slightly worried when there was a snake living under my house, not because of the snake itself (no poisonous snakes where I was) but because they were seen by some of the less educated locals as reincarnated spirits of evil ancestors. If they worked out I was an atheist it might not have gone over particularly well. Bad enough I told them I didn't follow a religion.

I also had to have stern words with some of the mixed race kids I taught, since they were throwing rocks at the house of a dwarf who lived a hermit-like existence out in the jungle. Had a chat to their parents, and one parent (full-blood local woman) defended their actions, since everyone knew little people did dark sorcery.

There was also a legal case I can probably dig up, where a witch doctor was murdered in cold blood, and the defendant was cleared on grounds of self-defence. Reasoning was something like the defendant and the witch doctor had argued over a woman, and the defendant had reasonable grounds to believe their life was in danger, as they couldn't find their hairbrush (hair being needed for sorcery, obviously).

The court wasn't stating that sorcery was real, but they were stating that the defendant honestly believed themselves in immediate danger. This wasn't a case of insanity, or anything. Self-defence.

 

[Thana]

I lived amongst 'Christians' for an extended time, who also actively practiced ancestor worship, believed in witch doctors, and a local form of sorcery. Don't ask me how they reconcile these things, but they did, at least to some degree.
(Papua New Guinea)

They would see portents and signs in all sorts of things. I got slightly worried when there was a snake living under my house, not because of the snake itself (no poisonous snakes where I was) but because they were seen by some of the less educated locals as reincarnated spirits of evil ancestors. If they worked out I was an atheist it might not have gone over particularly well. Bad enough I told them I didn't follow a religion.

I also had to have stern words with some of the mixed race kids I taught, since they were throwing rocks at the house of a dwarf who lived a hermit-like existence out in the jungle. Had a chat to their parents, and one parent (full-blood local woman) defended their actions, since everyone knew little people did dark sorcery.

There was also a legal case I can probably dig up, where a witch doctor was murdered in cold blood, and the defendant was cleared on grounds of self-defence. Reasoning was something like the defendant and the witch doctor had argued over a woman, and the defendant had reasonable grounds to believe their life was in danger, as they couldn't find their hairbrush (hair being needed for sorcery, obviously).

The court wasn't stating that sorcery was real, but they were stating that the defendant honestly believed themselves in immediate danger. This wasn't a case of insanity, or anything. Self-defence.

I'm Christian, But I believe in demons, evil spirits, dark magic, all that.
I hope that doesn't put me in the same boat as those people... :areyoucra

I suppose they justified it as being from the devil?
Though I don't know where they got little people being evil sorcerers..

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm Christian, But I believe in demons, evil spirits, dark magic, all that.
I hope that doesn't put me in the same boat as those people... :areyoucra

People have all sortsa beliefs. It's interesting to me when someone follows a religion (as opposed to a broader belief, which is I think what you hold?) and then holds other beliefs inconsistent with the teachings of that religion, but reconciles them.

I suppose they justified it as being from the devil?
Though I don't know where they got little people being evil sorcerers..

No. That's the really weird part. They seemed able to hold two diverse belief systems at the once. In terms of the people I was dealing with, these were not well-educated people. If someone identified as a 'school-graduate' they were talking about Grade 6, not high school (literally). I don't think they were analytical enough, or well-read enough to see the logical issue. They also had a very hard time understanding the concept of atheism. They could understand that I didn't follow a religion (eg. lots of SDAs where I was...me being a 'not SDA' made perfect sense), but even the concept of a white guy being a 'not Christian' was pretty hard for them to get, although there were a minority of locals who were 'not Christian'.

But even if they understood that, there was an assumption that I had to believe in something, since it was ridiculous to not have a belief about how people were created (for example).

Working out what they literally believed, and what was more tradition was always hard. I asked one of the Aussie guys whether they literally believed evil spirits were in the snake under my house. He thought I was getting a little too academic, but I kinda pushed the point, after a fashion.

His response? He caught the snake, got me to sit on a hill, and wandered down to the vehicle maintenance yard. He proceeded to chase the workers around the yard with the snake (which they all knew wasn't poisonous) and they literally ran for their lives, screaming.

Doesn't prove much...my sister screams over a Huntsman spider, even though she knows they aren't dangerous...
Still, he thought it was informative. 15-20 big strong tradies all run screaming from a ****** off snake which was not loose, but being held by an Aussie of (extremely) dubious character.

 

[Thana]

People have all sortsa beliefs. It's interesting to me when someone follows a religion (as opposed to a broader belief, which is I think what you hold?) and then holds other beliefs inconsistent with the teachings of that religion, but reconciles them.



No. That's the really weird part. They seemed able to hold two diverse belief systems at the once. In terms of the people I was dealing with, these were not well-educated people. If someone identified as a 'school-graduate' they were talking about Grade 6, not high school (literally). I don't think they were analytical enough, or well-read enough to see the logical issue. They also had a very hard time understanding the concept of atheism. They could understand that I didn't follow a religion (eg. lots of SDAs where I was...me being a 'not SDA' made perfect sense), but even the concept of a white guy being a 'not Christian' was pretty hard for them to get, although there were a minority of locals who were 'not Christian'.

But even if they understood that, there was an assumption that I had to believe in something, since it was ridiculous to not have a belief about how people were created (for example).

Working out what they literally believed, and what was more tradition was always hard. I asked one of the Aussie guys whether they literally believed evil spirits were in the snake under my house. He thought I was getting a little too academic, but I kinda pushed the point, after a fashion.

His response? He caught the snake, got me to sit on a hill, and wandered down to the vehicle maintenance yard. He proceeded to chase the workers around the yard with the snake (which they all knew wasn't poisonous) and they literally ran for their lives, screaming.

Doesn't prove much...my sister screams over a Huntsman spider, even though she knows they aren't dangerous...
Still, he thought it was informative. 15-20 big strong tradies all run screaming from a ****** off snake which was not loose, but being held by an Aussie of (extremely) dubious character.

I kind of see where they're coming from, It's like trying to introduce western civilization to the middle east.
They were conditioned, And couldn't easily comprehend anything else.

It's interesting though, I'm fascinated by psychology, And those people would be perfect research into the human 'follow the leader' mentality, And the inability to think outside the box.

But I digress,
I honestly would have loved to see big men running screaming from a snake.
I envy your experience :bow:

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I kind of see where they're coming from, It's like trying to introduce western civilization to the middle east.
They were conditioned, And couldn't easily comprehend anything else.

It's interesting though, I'm fascinated by psychology, And those people would be perfect research into the human 'follow the leader' mentality, And the inability to think outside the box.

Me too. Also, the ability to invent a whole new box that doesn't look like any box we've ever encountered...lol
You should check out stories from some of the missionaries who went up there, or even better (less-biased generally) the stories of the Australian patrolmen who operated pre-independence. Hard to find, but interesting, assuming you factor in the cultural bias.

But I digress,
I honestly would have loved to see big men running screaming from a snake.

Gotta admit, I laughed. It was like watching a cartoon, honestly.

I envy your experience :bow:

Was amazing. I could ramble about it for ages, both the good and the bad (plenty of both). Left uni, and wanted to see something completely different, and that certainly qualified, since I was living in a timber town. Even by PNG standards, it was remote.

 

[Awoon]

i notice some people who are 100% convinced there can't be any kind of deity. but how can you be so certain? rather than just not be so sure.
what solid proof do you have there is no chance of there being some kind of deity that maybe you are just not aware of?

"Deities" are humans pretending not to be "Deities."

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Honestly, for me, it is something that I "trust" is true, and I've explained why. There may be evidence out there that extreme hunger can lead to death, but it is not evidence I have seen.

There may be evidence that God exists as well.

Sticking to the same old guns? Alrighty then. But do you at the very least admit that there is demonstrable evidence for starvation but there has yet to be demonstrable evidence (or even weak evidence really) for god? I mean I can say that I haven't seen New York so its possible Spider Man is there. I mean you surely believe that the President of the united states exists but you've never "seen" him.

That seems to be what your argument boils down to. And if thats what it is then fine I just want you to understand that

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sticking to the same old guns? Alrighty then. But do you at the very least admit that there is demonstrable evidence for starvation but there has yet to be demonstrable evidence (or even weak evidence really) for god? I mean I can say that I haven't seen New York so its possible Spider Man is there. I mean you surely believe that the President of the united states exists but you've never "seen" him.

That seems to be what your argument boils down to. And if thats what it is then fine I just want you to understand that

Somewhat unethical evidence for starvation...

1. Buy goldfish
2. Don't feed.

Scientific evidence for God...

1. ???

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I kind of see where they're coming from, It's like trying to introduce western civilization to the middle east.
They were conditioned, And couldn't easily comprehend anything else.

It's interesting though, I'm fascinated by psychology, And those people would be perfect research into the human 'follow the leader' mentality, And the inability to think outside the box.

But I digress,
I honestly would have loved to see big men running screaming from a snake.
I envy your experience :bow:

Was watching the news (sitting in the Virgin Lounge in Sydney waiting for a plane...*sighs...)

Anyways, this came up. Funny timing, but there ya go...

Conference in PNG to tackle sorcery killings - Australia Network News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[Thana]

Was watching the news (sitting in the Virgin Lounge in Sydney waiting for a plane...*sighs...)

Anyways, this came up. Funny timing, but there ya go...

Conference in PNG to tackle sorcery killings - Australia Network News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Bloody hell.

I didn't even realize PNG had those kinds of beliefs...
I would hate to see how a practising wiccan would fare over there.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Bloody hell.

I didn't even realize PNG had those kinds of beliefs...
I would hate to see how a practising wiccan would fare over there.

They'd be brave or stupid to make it common knowledge with the locals.

 

[Ingledsva]

I of course know people die from hunger but have never seen anyone who has nor know anyone who has seen anyone who has. You are saying you have watched a person die from hunger? Where? When? I would also find it almost certain that Christian groups have done more to combat hunger than any other non national entity. We literally raise and supply millions from cradle to grave in Africa. It is actually counter productive. It only increases the numbers you have to feed exponentially but that is another issue.

Yes Africa, but also starving people in Russia, and alcohol related wasting, in disenfranchised Alaska natives. I was lucky enough to be sent off with several different exchange groups while I was studying.


The Russian exchange was very interesting. We traveled across the country examining mutual problems, such as poverty, and overpopulation, and also met with survivors of Chernobyl. They were young children when the meltdown occurred, and the majority were now dying from wasting caused by the radiation.


As I've said before, I worked with the Salvation Army for years.


Imagine my surprise when I was walking through Red Square, and suddenly heard a band playing Amazing Grace. I went over to take a look, and it was a Salvation Army Band in full uniform. LOL!


Russian highlights - got to cross the country on an old fashioned train - think Orient Express. Cakes and Tea were brought each evening, in Blue glass cups and plates with silver filigree holders. And best of all, I got to see a performance by the Bolshoi Ballet.


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