can you proove there isn't a deity?

[kloth]

It's reasonable to keep an open mind when it comes to the existence of God. The existence of God is quite reasonable.

off topic.

 

[Ingledsva]

It's reasonable to keep an open mind when it comes to the existence of God. The existence of God is quite reasonable.

However, isn't the saying something like -


"It's good to have an open mind,

But not so open that your brains fall out!"



*

 

[Sonofason]

However, isn't the saying something like -


"It's good to have an open mind,

But not so open that your brains fall out!"



*

Yes I agree completely.

 

[Sonofason]

off topic.

Please explain why you believe that what I have said is off topic.

 

[kloth]

Please explain why you believe that what I have said is off topic.

well because this is about proving there is no deity (or god if you will), not to assure people there might be a deity or god. :bow:

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

i notice some people who are 100% convinced there can't be any kind of deity. but how can you be so certain? rather than just not be so sure.
what solid proof do you have there is no chance of there being some kind of deity that maybe you are just not aware of?

Can you prove that there isn't an invisible magic space-pixie living in a teapot on the dark side of the moon? In all seriousness though, you have made a very good point. The concept of the existence of a deity can neither be proven nor disproven, because it's not something that can be tested.

 

[kloth]

Can you prove that there isn't an invisible magic space-pixie living in a teapot on the dark side of the moon? In all seriousness though, you have made a very good point. The concept of the existence of a deity can neither be proven nor disproven, because it's not something that can be tested.

didn't you already post on this thread asking me to prove there is not an invisible purple dragon sitting on your desk? on page one? post #7?

 

[Me Myself]

I can prove there is not deity, but I dont want you.

Can you prove that is false?

 

[outhouse]

I can prove there is not deity, but I dont want you.

Can you prove that is false?

Yes, you believe in at least one.


I however can show with reasonable doubt all deities are created by man.

Only man has wrote about this concept.


Do you think all the Canaanite deities were man made?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

didn't you already post on this thread asking me to prove there is not an invisible purple dragon sitting on your desk? on page one? post #7?

Nope... That wasn't me. By the way... the first line of my post was in jest.

 

[1robin]

I can prove there is not deity, but I dont want you.

Can you prove that is false?

I can prove it was an incoherent statement>

 

[1robin]

The majority do believe in these things but simply call it something else, even here in America. For hundreds of years many if not majority western Christians just added Jesus in with the nature spirits and all other pre-Christian goodies.

Laying of the hands, speaking in tongues, and prayer (well over 90% of Christians pray - fair guess?) is definitely in the witch-doctor and sorcery realm.

Here are what was claimed.

ancestor worship, believed in witch doctors, and a local form of sorcery.

I have been a prayer counselor for years and have researched Christianity for a long time. These beliefs are held by at most a tiny fringe sub group of Christians. I have never met one that believed in any of them and have met hundreds of Christians. I have no idea why would would equate prayer with shamanism or sorcery. They are both supernatural concepts but he similarities end there. That is worse than claiming the sun and my over are equal because they both involve heat.

 

[1robin]

Seeing someone die from hunger, is not the same as standing by while they die. Children dying from starvation are brought into hospitals, many of which are just makeshift. That is where we saw children actually pass away. They were too far gone to be helped. Very sad. Makes one realize how lucky we are.

Very well.

However, they wouldn't be able to feed themselves, would kill all life sustaining vegetation and animals, and would die from disease brought on by their own feces.

Did you think I was positing a solution? I was merely stating an interesting fact.

Over population is an equation of sustainability.

I agree.

These were all studies related exchanges while I was in high school and college. Most were funded by grants, however sometime you have to match funds. Several required you to have a credit card, for emergencies. LOL!

I would have loved that opportunity.

Part of the Russian exchange was backed by the Russian Government. They arranged for housing in Russia, and flew us in on the Military Aeroflot. We flew from Anchorage, Alaska to Magadan, Russia, where we switched to Military Aeroflot. Interestingly, these officers actually allowed us into the cockpit to see the controls and talk to the pilots. They even handed out Aeroflot pins. LOL.

It probably helped that my mother was an educator, and was a Superintendent of Schools for the State of Alaska by the time I was in high school. She made sure I was aware of all opportunities for foreign study and travel that crossed her desk.

Alaska is an interesting case. There was a lot of backlash for our supposed mistreatment of Indians and Africans. Alaska was given unprecedented privileges because of the PC atmosphere at the time.

"Do what is RIGHT and eventually it will circle around to BLESS YOU.

Do what is WRONG and eventually it will circle around to BITE YOU on the BUTT!"

This requires a transcendental source capable of intentionally directing events and consequences. If God does not exist the dichotomy you illustrate has no foundation.

 

[1robin]

Globally, sure. In PNG that is not accurate. We are talking a country where 96% of the population identify as Christian. Far higher than almost anywhere you could name. Religious education is taught throughout the school system.

I thought we were discussing global Christianity. It is kind of futile to draw lessons or make claims based on he extreme exception instead of the rule. If we are only talking about PNG then I can see what you claimed may be true.

Apart from that, less than 1% are Bahá'í, and there are maybe a couple of thousand Muslims in TOTAL, with almost all of those being immigrants.

In this overwhelmingly Christian country, you will receive as many stories as you like about personal experiences with God, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, etc. You will, from the SAME SOURCES receive detailed descriptions of their personal experiences with sorcery, the conversations they have with ancestors and/or animalistic totems.

I find it very hard to believe that even in PNG these latter claims are the norm. I however and out of my element and do not understand the purpose of claims about an overwhelming exception.

Colloquially, I would happily agree with you that the place is nuts. Completely. But talking more seriously, I cannot write off a country of 4 million people as an exception. They are currently holding a seminar on how to deal with sorcery-related killings, and are considering (or maybe already have) taken sorcery off the list of illegal activities. This is a primitive country, where Christianity has been introduced through sometimes dubious means, and sometimes in a sincere effort to assist and benefit the community. In both cases, this has led to the successful integration of Christianity into the community in a more comprehensive fashion than almost anywhere else you could point to.

There are 2 billion Christians alive today. At best that puts 3 million Christians in PNG. Being that PNG has a long history with shamanistic practices it does not surprise me they die hard. I can not understand your extrapolation from 2 million Christians in connection with 2 billion. Your data set is extremely insufficient.

As the country becomes more sophisticated, and more educated (assuming that actually occurs), the sophistication of their beliefs will similarly increase. Those professing to have spoken to their ancestors via pagan rituals will eventually be marginilised. Those professing to have spoken to God will not be.

Prior to Christian missionaries landing in PNG, exactly 0% of the population claimed to have experienced God. Amazingly, God started visiting after knowledge of him was communicated by gift-giving missionaries. Prior to Christian missionaries, ritualistic communication with ancestors and belief in sorcery was largely universal. It's still distressingly high (err...I could give a rats what people believe, but their belief in sorcery has unfortunate consequences, to say the least), but it is waning, replaced by more socially acceptable, and sophisticated beliefs.

Theological or supernatural beliefs die hard. This occurs because we sympathize with family members that hold on to them and wish to get along instead of meet resistance by defending our faith. Christ said his message would produce discord even among families but people want to avoid that sad fact.

I'm talking a whole, overwhelmingly Christian country. Sure, it's a dot in terms of total belief. But what sample size do I need? 4 million people is a significant sample size, and their exposure to Christianity is both more recent, and more immediately accessible to me from personal experience, as well as via the media (Australian sources...I'm sure PNG doesn't register much in the States, but it was an Australian protectorate until 1974).

You said the population was 4 million. That puts it's optimistic Christian population at approximately 2 million. You can find hundreds of millions of Christians in Europe and the US who do not hold and actually resent anyone's holding any of the beliefs you mention. The vast majority of Christians do not hold any of those beliefs. A very small sample from a very backwards nation is a horrible foundation for claiming Christianity holds to those beliefs.

My point is that our backgrounds and our beliefs seem to inform our experiences (certainly in terms of the supernatural, at least). I'm not seeking to convince you, but when you talk about people not having actually experienced the thunder and lightning God, you are talking in terms of absolute truth. They may very well believe that they have experienced it. This is the same light by which I see Christianity.

I think it can but I believe in most cases reality determines what we claim it is. Most Christians who hold to an experience with God do not hold to experiencing any non biblical supernatural events. I think your location is really distorting your extrapolations. At best here are a few million people that would claim to have experienced a supernatural event that is not Biblically valid. There are billions that claim to have experienced supernatural events consistent with the Bible. I expect a relatively small amount of people to claim every bizarre belief that can be imagined, but when it is 1/3 of the population you must sit up and take notice. I do not believe in UFO's but expect to find a few thousand people that claim to have witnessed them. If 2 billion people claimed to have done so I would have to really question my conclusion they are mistaken.

You can mention how there are billions of Christians, but it doesn't matter to me. I have named a country of 4 million Christians as an example that personal experience is not compelling.

I have addressed this. There are a great many things wrong with your extrapolations but I currently have little time.

IN terms of the OP, I would put up my hand and say I don't think I can prove there's no deity. I think I already have (who remembers?!). But the point I was trying to make is that there are SUBSTANTIAL numbers of people who honestly believe to have had experiences other than Christian in nature. Do I discount these?
Yes? But not Christian?

We would have to evaluate every claim individually. This is far to broad to resolve as is. As I said above a small portion of the population will claim anything that can be imagined. This is expected, not meaningful, and not persuasive. When the number who believe to have experienced something is a thousand times as many people exist in these endless fringe belief groups then things start to get very serious and persuasive. See my UFO analogy.

Why? Because of how many Christians there are? Nup...it's not compelling to me, at all. I have seen why people believe things...truth is generally down the list. I don't believe for a second that you would toss out your Christian beliefs if the world changed, and Islam became the most numerous religion. I wouldn't expect you to, and it wouldn't make logical sense to me. For myself, I am believing in what I have seen reason to believe in. Nothing more.

So if 2 million Christians in PNG also claim to believe in non-biblical supernatural experiences ( I would bet anything the actual numbers are several orders of magnitude smaller) it is convincing for you. However groups of Christians a thousand times larger that do not is not convincing. That is very strange logic and very bad statistical extrapolation. Sounds to me as if you have a preferred pre-conception you are using cherry picked data and ignoring far larger data sets to justify.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, you believe in at least one.


I however can show with reasonable doubt all deities are created by man.

Only man has wrote about this concept.


Do you think all the Canaanite deities were man made?

1- women have also written about the concept.

2- where is the evidence that I do not have evidence that God exists that I could share but I dont want to share?

 

[Ingledsva]

...

Alaska is an interesting case. There was a lot of backlash for our supposed mistreatment of Indians and Africans. Alaska was given unprecedented privileges because of the PC atmosphere at the time.

Actually they did, and still do, mistreat Indians and people of "color." Alaskan Indians were also mistreated in the same way.

They seized children from villages, and put them in government/Christian run schools, where they were forced to give up their native names and go by "Christian" names, were forced to go to Christian church, and were beaten if they kept anything considered "pagan." Those beatings included anyone speaking their native language.

Just three years ago I personally heard a Christian telling a woman from the local Tlingit Tribe, that they should gather their totems, rattles, and dancing masks, etc, and burn them because they were evil and of the devil.

There is actually a move up here to take back Alaska from the US Government because of illegal things done to seize it and to make it a state. They actually stopped natives from voting on statehood, because they knew there would be more of them voting against, then outsiders voting for.

You know the Victor/History clause. Much fudged history. Even after the Windtalkers movie, most people don't know that there were Alaska native Windtalkers. Or that "No enemy landed on American soil." They landed here in Alaska up in the islands, and natives up there fought them. A lot of people died up there.

"Do what is RIGHT and eventually it will circle around to BLESS YOU.

Do what is WRONG and eventually it will circle around to BITE YOU on the BUTT!"

This requires a transcendental source capable of intentionally directing events and consequences. If God does not exist the dichotomy you illustrate has no foundation.

I'm not talking anything supernatural. This is my Grandmother's simplified version on how to go through life.



*

 

[SkepticThinker]

I lived amongst 'Christians' for an extended time, who also actively practiced ancestor worship, believed in witch doctors, and a local form of sorcery. Don't ask me how they reconcile these things, but they did, at least to some degree.
(Papua New Guinea)

They would see portents and signs in all sorts of things. I got slightly worried when there was a snake living under my house, not because of the snake itself (no poisonous snakes where I was) but because they were seen by some of the less educated locals as reincarnated spirits of evil ancestors. If they worked out I was an atheist it might not have gone over particularly well. Bad enough I told them I didn't follow a religion.

I also had to have stern words with some of the mixed race kids I taught, since they were throwing rocks at the house of a dwarf who lived a hermit-like existence out in the jungle. Had a chat to their parents, and one parent (full-blood local woman) defended their actions, since everyone knew little people did dark sorcery.

There was also a legal case I can probably dig up, where a witch doctor was murdered in cold blood, and the defendant was cleared on grounds of self-defence. Reasoning was something like the defendant and the witch doctor had argued over a woman, and the defendant had reasonable grounds to believe their life was in danger, as they couldn't find their hairbrush (hair being needed for sorcery, obviously).

The court wasn't stating that sorcery was real, but they were stating that the defendant honestly believed themselves in immediate danger. This wasn't a case of insanity, or anything. Self-defence.

I had a university professor (anthropology) who lived there for many years.
That was one of the most interesting classes I've ever taken. Oh, the stories he told!

According to him, his "adopted" father was a witch on trial for murder, much like what you've described here. I wish I could better remember the details, as it was completely fascinating.

 

[outhouse]

1- women have also written about the concept.

Sources needed


Do you think all the Canaanite deities were man made?

 

[Me Myself]

Sources needed

For real? do you believe no woman has ever witten about God?

Do you think all the Canaanite deities were man made?

I ll gladly answer your question after you answer mine, I ve asked at least three times now:

Can you evidence that I dont have evidence on the existence of God that I am deliberately keeping to myself and not sharing?

 

[outhouse]

For real? do you believe no woman has ever witten about God?

What women has authored a single bookin the bible?