Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Nero is 69232.
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Can you Unravel the Mystery?
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
It is the great city that rules over the earth. Speculatively speaking it would be the antiChrist who would rule over the earth and since any Christ would have to be Jewish then he will rule from Jerusalem.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You missed the point of how "Babylon the Great" was actually referring to, namely the Roman Empire.
We all have read Daniel and the story of Nebuchadnezzar's vision. It is about how a kingdom not made by human hands replaces all other kingdoms. In this apocalypse Nebuchadnezar is the king of Babylon, and his kingdom is the head of all other human kingdoms. These are Babylon, and the trouble with kingdoms is that we don't know how to live without them, yet our own hands keep making them, and so in Revelation they are represented.
Revelation 17 notes the progression of the "kingdoms" and their ending with the 8th head of the beast, the one that "was", and "is not". Daniel notes their total destruction "all at the same time" with respect to Daniel 2:35. The time of the end, the time of judgment of the nation, noted as "the LORD's day" is at hand, with regard to the 8th head of the beast that is now in reign with his 10 horns like a lamb. The "beast"/king that was (Rev 17:11), was Julius Caesar (dictator/emperor) is represented in the present time via his 10 horns, and they are such personages as the Kaiser/Caesar, the Czar/Caesar, and men representing such as Stalin, Hitler, and present-day dictators such as Putin. The "kingdom" to come, not made with hands, is the "kingdom of God" as represented by Zechariah 14:16 & Ezekiel 37:21-28, Isaiah 14:1-2, Rev 19:15, Joel 3:2-7, whereas the "nations"/Gentiles will become slaves of Judah, and ruled by a "rod of iron".
The Roman empire starts with the 4th head of the beast of Revelation 17:9-11. The former heads started with Nebuchadnezzar, and then included Persia, and the Greeks, all noted in Daniel 10:20 as being ruled by their own princes/gods, who passed their authorities to the kings. Babylon the great is simply the pagan religion associated with each, but who came out of Babel, whose god was the sun god, Bel, and was the foundation of the babel/confusion of all.
Today, according to Paul, is the time of the end. Its been the time of the end, now, for the last two thousand years. I think this is the mystery of the seven stars in Revelation and many of the sevens. Also the gospels allude to this. That this is the day of the LORD, not some future point but all of our human days from then until some future point. Keep going round and round patiently. Every year the dragon tries to destroy the child, not just one time. Things seem to move slowly or to stay the same, but march on. When you're seeing stars fall and men fall and you see dragons and terrible things happening, keep going. Don't lose your first love. When there are plagues don't change. When the abyss is open, and when men follow the beast keep being patient. Don't give up. This is the Revelation that I read.
Certainly I understand that there are other interpretations, but generally speaking they are escapist. They are faithless. Usually they involve a lot of adrenaline about us finally getting relief from duty. There is only one way to interpret Revelation which is faithful and that is to read it as an encouragement to remain faithful and to endure. I would ignore interpretations that involve raptures or that involve identifying the ten horns with historical things that come in tens or that try to say that there is a plan of certain numbers of years when things will happen, when we no longer have to endure. These are faithless full of sound and not very responsible. Very often they will have you hiding in caves or buying reams of books and will tell you that Revelation is incomprehensible mush that nobody can sanely discourse about. If you hear an interpretation of Revelation that has you going here or there, ignore it. If they say that there are signs, ignore that. That's what I advise. If a frickin' space alien appears and tells you that the angel of the abyss has just opened a crack in the world, I would just ignore that. This is the last day.
Of course, the "many" have the right to travel down the broad path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). Of course when the "great tribulation" comes, they have the right to go back to get their coat and be overtaken as they were not prepared. As for the when, well, the "son of man" says that when the "fig tree puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is right at the door" (Matthew 24;32-33), and that "He is near, right at the door". And of course, the "many" have the option of following the false prophet Paul, who says "we shall not all sleep/die", yet he and "everybody will die because of their own iniquities", according to the Word of God (Jeremiah 31:30). If you believe the false prophet Paul, you are lost, and if you don't believe the true "Word of God", you are lost. And apparently, as stated by Yeshua in Matthew 13:13-15, those without eyes to see or ears to hear, will not understand, both the "kingdom of heaven", or the meaning of the parables concerning such "kingdom", which is in parallel with Daniel 12:10, in as much as the "wicked", will have no understanding. Your faith, based on the false gospel of grace/lawlessness, is a false hope, and your endurance, which is nothing less than holding onto a false faith, will leave you with empty hands. What Yeshua said was that if some idiot says he saw him in the wilderness (Matthew 24:26), you were not to believe them, yet that is exactly what your leader Paul and his followers did. You can say "peace, peace", and say everything is fine, but Isaiah said when the time of distress comes, go into your rooms and close your door. (Isaiah 26:20) When the "sky falls" (Rev 16:21), all you will be able to do is "blaspheme God", and when the "locust" come, all you will be able to do is pray for your own death (Rev 9:6). The new US government new talking point is that the "space aliens" have arrived. Keep in mind that the "demon spirit" of the "beast" and the "false prophet" of Revelation 16:13-16 are trying to get the nations to bring about Har-Magedon, which starts with the invasion of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14). Keep in mind that the time of Jacob's distress (Israel's distress) is when the "nations" will be completely "destroyed" (Jeremiah 30:7-11)
Jeremiah 30:11 "For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you (Jacob)"
If I find a mistake in Paul that does not mean nothing he says can be useful. I have to test what anyone says to decide what is legitimate, and Paul is no exception. We who are not relying upon a catholic hierarchy cannot just accept things because they are in gospels. If we believe this is the day of the LORD's favor, then we have to work out for ourselves why Jesus says so. Revelation is an apocalypse. It is describing things which happen all the time, and it is saying to be patient. Jesus in the gospels says that the year of the LORD's favor has come (Luke 4:24). This is the same idea - the operative Hebrew term being the Hebrew 'Yom' even though the gospel is in Greek language. Year of the LORD's favor, Day of the LORD's favor, Hour of the LORD's favor...Yom. I am mostly sure Jesus is talking of the day of the LORD spoken of by the poets Isaiah and Jeremiah. The year of the LORD's favor begins with Jesus ministry according to Jesus preaching, but even though this is what a gospel says even that must be tested.
Not understanding does not make a person wicked. If I believe that you are confused, it does not mean that you don't have eyes to see or ears to hear necessarily. As always I suggest the narrow gate is humility and relates to what James writes about not boasting, not cursing etc.
I think you are confused, however I don't think this makes you evil. Being evil is a matter of character and action or inaction. While I feel guilty not responding with a battery of scriptures, I assure you I have thought carefully about this post and have read yours.
I also think that while there could be detritus in some of Paul's letters this does not explain all of the problems Christians have, today; nor can you fix Christianity by erasing Paul. You just have to chew your food and spit out the bones.
The "day of the LORD's favor" per Isaiah 61 is also with respect to the "day of the vengeance of God" (Is 61:2), whereas those in Zion are provided for, and "strangers will shepherd your flocks" (Is 61:4) but in other words of Joel 2:31-32, Zion and those in Jerusalem will "escape"/"survive", whereas the nations will be sold into slavery (Joel 3:1-7) after the valley of judgment, whereas the nations are judged. Per Isaiah 14:1-2, and the "strangers"/nations/Gentiles will become slaves to Jacob when the LORD has "compassion" on him and has "broken the staff of the wicked". As for your "Luke 4:24" comment, you must have a different bible than the one I use. Israel will be chastened but survive the "distress of Jacob" (Jeremiah 30:7-11), and it is only the "nations" that "I will destroy completely". Per Matthew 24:22, if that time was not "cut short", "no life would have been saved". I suggest that you read you references in context.
The "wicked" are defined in Matthew 13:38-51 as "those who commit lawlessness" by comparing the two different parables with respect to the "kingdom of heaven" (Mt 13:13). It is those "who commit lawlessness" who do not have eyes to see or ears to hear per Mt 13:15 and Daniel 12:10. And your "James", says that "faith" without "works" is dead. Paul the Pharisee, as defined via the leaven/hypocrisy, must be taken out of the bread of life when eaten. Much like the "chaff" must be separated from the "wheat" and burned, much like the "tares" will be separated by the angels and thrown into the furnace of fire at the "end the age" (Mt 13:30). Once you have drank the Kool Aide of Paul, his leaven/hypocrisy will ruin the whole loaf. The problems the "Christians" have today is their "hypocrisies". Although Paul, along with Peter and Judas Iscariot were chosen by the LORD for their respective roles (Zech 11), they were "annihilated" after they finished their tasks, and only the demon spirit of the false prophet Paul has a role via Rev 16:13-16, in fomenting Har-Magedon (the valley of judgment) (Zech 14 & Joel 3:2)
James makes a great argument when he says that we shouldn't both curse men and bless God. For that one alone he is a keeper.
One thing I notice is that you are having to paste together bits of poems from far flung parts of the bible to sew together a theme in support of predictive powers in the bible. It is important to you that the bible be able to predict things that no one else could, but this is not important to me. Also the reasoning to support such a thing looks unfortunately like a patchwork. Most of the patches are sentences taken out of poems. Isaiah's poems are together in one volume. Jeremiah's It is not working well.
The biggest source of hypocrisy is that of families. Families mistake their family love for spiritual fruit, but it is not. It doesn't take a spiritual genius to care for one's own mother or father. It hardly requires any personal growth or sacrifice.
For brevity I take out direct quotes, but give the chapter and verse for you to read the whole context. The Law and the prophets speak of the "kingdom" to come, and I simply took verses out of the direct quotes of prophets and writers which you were referring too. You seem to read one sentence out of context and build a temple on it. If you are going to take quotes from Isaiah 61, read the whole text. As for keeping the 5th commandment, well it is wise to keep that commandment, or else die before one's time. Deut 5:16 It is God who curses Israel for not keeping His commandments and blesses them for keeping them. Apparently with respect to honoring your father and mother, if you don't you will be cursed (Exodus 20:12) with respect to your length of life on earth. Now if your life is not so good, then you can ask, what does it matter? It is either dishonor you parents or drink oneself to death as is done by those who are perishing. The problem being that at the time of the "locusts" (Rev 9:6), there will be no release granted. One will suffer regardless of that person wanting to die.
Deuteronomy 5:16
Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Actually in Deuteronomy 5:16 the people only say "Cursed is" and do not actually speak ill of anyone. David and others show a similar practice and will only say "May the LORD judge between you and I" and will not denounce one another.
The 'Time of the locusts' to which you refer appears to be someone's idea that the locusts are not symbolic and relies upon Revelation becoming a time map, which I don't think it is. I think all of it is happening for the last two thousand years continually, all the seals, angels, horsemen, stars and trumps all the time. The seventh seal, the seven angels...etc. Here are some examples of verses showing that the signs in Revelation all happen soon, not in some centuries long order:
[Rev 1:1 NIV] 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
[Rev 1:3 NIV] 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
That is the first thing. Its all happening 'Soon', not 'Some now and some later'. The best explanation to me for why no one saw a literal woman clothed with the sun etc is that it is symbolic, however it must happen immediately. That suggests it is happening all the time, not some now some later.Here are things which have been happening since day 1, even though some are part of different sections of Revelation. There are many, many more symbols in Revelation for things which are ongoing, such as the dragon's vengeance against the Woman who gives birth to the child:
[Rev 6:8 NIV] 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
[Rev 7:14 NIV] 14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[Rev 9:6 NIV] 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
Another indication is when the Lord God says "I am the alpha and the omega who was and is and is to come" in Revelation 1:8. He was and is and is to come (a title that is counter to time experience), and this apocalypse calls itself "The revelation of Jesus Christ" which some people interpret to say "From Jesus Christ," but the writer leaves it to us to decide. There is no preposition in the original Greek, and the book does describe Jesus Christ symbolically. I think this book is speaking about the mystery of Christ, and it is doing so in story language. The plan of God's will being done on Earth is one that takes time, patience patience and more patience.God loses patience in that he says seek the LORD while he may be found, which is to say, the time is coming when it will be too late for God has lost his patience. Isaiah 55:6 That you have no idea of the meaning or context of Revelation, which is a repeat of Daniel, or the parables of Yeshua should explain a lot via the explanation of Daniel 12:10. You are just trying to shoehorn what is written in the "message" of the "enemy" (Mt 13:25), the false prophet Paul, and it is not going to work. I suggest that you read all of Isaiah 55 without preconceptions. As for the "time" of God, one day is as a thousand years, and after "two days", on the 3rd day, the LORD will heal Judah and Ephraim (Hosea 6:2). We are now in the 3rd day, after the 2000 years of the 2 days.
King James Bible 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near
'Seek the LORD while he may be found' is spoken to Jewish people who know what to do. They actually can seek the LORD. What makes you think you know what it means, and what is your connection to Judaism? Talking down to me, like you think you've been touched by lightning. Cute. You literally are trying to insist that Revelation is a map of time. That's like following Nostradamus because he's dressed in a prayer shawl.
- [Mat 15:10-11 NIV] 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."
I realize things are not Ok, right now, in churches at least not in my opinion. Hypocrisy is everywhere, but that is because we are human beings. Ignorance is common, true. You think that taking Paul out of the canon is going to fix so much. How shall we proceed to renew church, then? What shall we do with people who aren't scripturally accurate -- lock them in the basement?
Well, I don't know, but according to Daniel 12:10, the "wicked" trying to "understand" is a lost cause. As for how to worship God on His mountain, well Isaiah 56:6 lays that out for the "foreigner".
New American Standard Bible
Isaiah 56:6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, To attend to His service and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it, And holds firmly to My covenant
I don't know. It seems that Yeshua had no use for the "leaven" of the Pharisees any more than I do. (Matthew 16:6)
Matthew 16:6
And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
They are already in the darkness of the basement. It might help if they actually read the bible for themselves and questioned the traditions of men. The light does not come from man, but from the "Word of God", which is not what the traditions of men says that it is. Yeshua described the Law and the prophets as "scripture" which "cannot be nullified" (John 10:35), whereas the followers of Paul declare "scriptures" as "obsolete" and "passing away". Not a good start. Yeshua described "hypocrisy" as coming from the Pharisees, and Paul declares himself as the Pharisee of Pharisees. Follow the money. Check the bank records of all the money Paul collected for the widows in Jerusalem when he actually was thrown out of Jerusalem. The man is a snake and a son of the "serpent", who preached the same sermon, that is to do what he says, and you "surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4).
John 10:35
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be nullified)
Isaiah 56:6 sounds a lot like full conversion including circumcision and keeping the Torah including marriage and training our children to do the same. In that case the question is who has adopted us, because if we don't have a Jewish parent then how do we claim any relation. You must have an opinion on who is the father in heaven and the basis of adoption for us that connects us to make the gospels relevant for us. Who is it that makes the gospels relevant to non Jews, and why should we read them? They are written to Jews by Jews. That much is clear to me, because they use many arcane Jewish cultural situations that confuse and mislead most readers. So what is the relevance to a non Jewish person, without Paul. I am perfectly fine with it. I don't insist upon a particular answer.
Considering ideas isn't toxic.
I notice he says it of both the Pharisees and Sadducees not just one or the other. It has something to do with both. You answer in the next paragraph that it is hypocrisy (and possibly greed). It may have been an issue with that particular generation of Sadducee and Pharisee and not all future generations. On the other hand hypocrisy is everywhere and seems to be part of the human condition, but this still only puts Christians and them on similar footing. What is the nature of our special resistance to hypocrisy once we eliminate Paul? We get rid of Paul and then will develop a superior resistance to these evils, how.
This is begging the question that we already are discussing.
I've already pointed out a snag that the gospels are written by Jews to Jews. This is slightly off topic, but it is relevant. The gospels also appear to me to be about Jewish problems not about things relevant to non Jewish people. For example Jesus says "You are the salt of the Earth" to Jews. (Matthew 5:13) Great, but what does that have to do with me? I am, out of habit, used to assuming its something for me; but what makes it written to me. It seems that I am an outsider looking in, but preachers tells me this is addressed to me and that I am the salt of the Earth. I understand Jesus argument about the salt, but he's talking to Jews. He's talking about people who know the Torah already.
Let me put to you that without Paul (not that I care) the relevance of the cross is that it is about the death and resurrection of Israel. Every prophecy about Israel is about Jesus, making them the same thing. All of the early Christian talk uses Jesus as a symbol for Israel. This makes perfect sense considering the political forces of the time. The gospel is saying that the temple's destruction is for the sake of the world, etc. There is nowhere that the gospels say I am relevant to the salvation of the world or that I am to preach anything. All I have to do is be me. The Jews are the ones who have to do everything.