Can you Unravel the Mystery?

[nPeace]

2. both are persecuting powers (Dan. 7:21, Dan. 7:25; Dan. 8:10, Dan. 8:24);

We agree on that. All the beasts and their horns have that in common.

3. both are self-exalting and blasphemous (Dan. 7:8, Dan. 7:20, Dan. 7:25; Dan. 8:10-11, Dan. 8:25); 4. both target God’s people (Dan. 7:25, Dan. 8:24); 5. both have aspects of their activity delineated by prophetic time (Dan. 7:25; Dan. 8:13-14);

6. both extend until the end of time (Dan. 7:25-26; Dan. 8:17, Dan. 8:19);

and 7. both are to be supernaturally destroyed (Dan. 7:11, Dan. 7:26; Dan. 8:25).

That's orrect.

History identifies the first kingdom as Babylon (Dan. 2:38), the second as Media-Persia (Daniel 8:20-21) and the third as Greece (Daniel 7:6). History is unequivocal that after these world empires comes the Roman Empire. In Daniel chapter 2, the iron representing Rome continues into the feet of iron mixed with clay; that is, until the end of time. The little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the fourth beast but remains part of this fourth beast but different to any other power that was before it.

I was looking for some kind of verification for your statement, but not seeing any.
Most historians don't agree with you that the first kingdom in opposition to God's people is Babylon. The Bible does not either.
That would be Egypt - recorded in the book of Exodus, which was conquered by Assyria.
Then we have the Assyrians, which we find in both the Sennacherib Prism and Babylonian Chronicle, and the books of Kings, Chronicles, and Isaiah... which was conquered by Babylon.

The historical timeline is chronological. It's not possible to leave out important characters like the Assyrians - mentioned by name in both the Bible, and history.

So, the first kingdom is Egypt; the second is Assyria, and Daniel continues from Babylon, and prophesies through to Rome. See images referenced earlier.
Babylon is the third kingdom.
Daniel happened to be there in Babylon, to receive God's prophetic word.
Nehemiah was the one who happened to be on hand, when the fourth kingdom gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
Josephus confirmed the fulfillment of Daniel prophecy regarding Media Persia's fall to Greece.
We know the Messiah arrived during the rule of the terrible beast - Rome.
It was still around when the last apostle - John - died.

That's six.

1. Egypt,
2. Assyria,
3. Babylon,
4. Media Persia,
5. Greece,
6. and Rome.

When John wrote the final revelation, his words were accurate. Revelation 17:10 . . .there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

Thus, the little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the sixth beast.
If we get our numbers messed up along the way, that throws our calculations way off course.

What power came out of Rome and continues its politico-religious influence for at least 1,260 years (see Dan. 7:25)? Only one power fits history and prophecy — the papacy.

There are a few problems with that.

1. We cannot change the political beast into a religious entity. The beast is totally political, and the horns are totally political rulers - kings.
2. In order to rule as a powerful king, this horn needed to "pluck three kingdoms" from the beast. You haven't provided that data.
3. According to history, the papacy is not the "one power" coming out of Rome, that " fits history and prophecy".

A little history...

The term Anglo-Saxon is a relatively modern one. It refers to settlers from the German regions of Angeln and Saxony, who made their way over to Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire around AD 410.​

​

The Roman armies withdrew from Britain early in the fifth century because they were needed back home to defend the crumbling centre of the Empire. Britain was considered a far-flung outpost of little value.​

It's a brief history, so please read on.

We cannot leave out Britain here.
You can read about the Sub-Roman Britain is the period of late antiquity in Great Britain between the end of Roman rule and the Anglo-Saxon settlement.

...and...
The British Empire: The Largest Empire In The World

The British Empire was, at its height, the largest empire the world had ever seen. Covering a quarter of the globe and containing a fifth of the world’s population, it was, quite simply, unmatched in size and scope. Even today, the legacy of the British Empire is still evident in the many countries that were once part of it.​

...As Bommas points out, the Romans dominated this competition for years to come.​

Britain emerged as a world power, History shows how it could have emerged from Rome.
Not only did it emerge as a world power, it pluck three kings from the beast. Thus, Britain fits perfectly in the prophecy of Daniel, and history.
How Britain gained an empire
Conflict with Spain, Holland and France [- three kingdoms].
[The defeat of France] confirmed British control of the region.

There is more, on how the British Empire fits.
However, Britain is not by itself the little horn.
The little horn's emergence starts from a baby, to a full grown adult.
We see its growth from the history timeline given here.

More on that, later.

 

[nPeace]

The papacy came into power among the ten barbarian tribes of Europe and uprooted three of them (Dan. 7:24).

Please for the reference.

The papacy was “different from the previous ones” (Dan. 7:24) indicating its uniqueness compared to the other tribes.

The British Empire in 1914
WE may note here briefly the varied nature of the constituents of the British Empire in 1914 which the steamship and railway had brought together. It was and is a quite unique political combination; nothing of the sort has ever existed before.

It will be manifest, therefore, that no single office and no single brain had ever comprehended the British Empire as a whole. It was a mixture of growths and accumulations entirely different from anything that has ever been called an empire before.

The papacy spoke “pompous words against the Most High” (Dan. 7:25, NKJV) and “exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host” (Dan. 8:11, NKJV) by usurping the role of Jesus and replacing it with the pope.

What were those pompous words, and how did the papacy “exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host” by usurping the role of Jesus and replacing it with the pope?

The papacy fulfilled the prediction of persecuting “the saints of the Most High” (Dan. 7:25, NKJV) and casting down “some of the host” (Dan 8:10, NKJV) during the Counter-Reformation when Protestants were slaughtered.

You are saying the reformers were the holy ones? On what basis, please?

The papacy sought “to change times and law” (Dan. 7:25, NKJV) by removing the second commandment and changing the Sabbath to Sunday.
(see also Final Analysis of the Little Horn).

Hmm. Sounds like an opinion?
Someone might say that was the protestants who tried to change the law of "the Church - the body of Christ".

Revelation 17:1-6 1, And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying to me, Come here; I will show to you the judgment of the great whore that sits on many waters: 2, With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3, So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit on a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4, And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5, And on her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6, And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

17:1-2 The Judgment of the Harlot of Babylon: Chapters 17, 18 and part of 19 deal with the judgment of Babylon the Great. In Revelation 17:1-6 The crimes for which God executes judgment upon the harlot, the Roman Papal system, are enumerated; in 17:7-18 her punishment and the means by which it will come to pass is pronounced. She is called “The Great Whore.” According to Ephesians 5, Jesus is the spiritual husband of the church; therefore if a church unites with or receives favors of one who is not her husband, she commits spiritual adultery. The “kings of the earth” represent civil powers. When churches lose the power of the gospel to transform hearts and lives they turn to the power of the state to support their doctrines and thus they commit spiritual fornication. The “many waters” are the countless people (vs. 15) she has deceived and “made drunk” with her doctrines.

17:3-6 The main difference between the beast of Revelation 13 and the combined power represented by the beast and the woman here is that a distinction is made between the religious and political aspects of Papal power. The “scarlet colored beast” represents the governments. The woman—the apostate church—rides upon the beast, symbolizing the church controlling the state. In contrast to the pure church of Revelation 12 this woman is “arrayed in purple and scarlet…with gold” and jewelry. She is a part of “Babylon,” the great city that Satan has set up in opposition to the New Jerusalem of God. The Roman Catholic Church has proudly styled herself as “The Mother Church,” but here she is called “The Mother of Harlots.” From the mother have come the various Protestant denominations which profess to be clean and pure, vehemently rejecting the corruptions of the Catholic Church. But these churches have shown a distressing tendency to follow their mother’s example of sacrificing truth and the approval of God and to seek the power of the state to enforce doctrine, and thus they choose to become harlots with their mother. She is truly “drunk with the blood of the saints.” History records the deeds of the papacy as it used the state to persecute and kill millions of faithful Christians during the Dark Ages. The Catholic Church has disguised herself with humble apologies for these actions, but she has not changed. The same spirit of persecution with again be exhibited against God’s faithful children who will not drink the wine of her corruption just before the second coming of Christ.

No doubt, the RCC is not blood guilty, but she is just part of Babylon the Great, for reasons mentioned before.

I think you missed the point. The point is that the woman is not the beast she is riding on them and they are influenced by her.

Take Care.

That's the point? How could I have missed it, when I didn't say anything different?

 

[2ndpillar]

We agree on that. All the beasts and their horns have that in common.






That's orrect.


I was looking for some kind of verification for your statement, but not seeing any.
Most historians don't agree with you that the first kingdom in opposition to God's people is Babylon. The Bible does not either.
That would be Egypt - recorded in the book of Exodus, which was conquered by Assyria.
Then we have the Assyrians, which we find in both the Sennacherib Prism and Babylonian Chronicle, and the books of Kings, Chronicles, and Isaiah... which was conquered by Babylon.

The historical timeline is chronological. It's not possible to leave out important characters like the Assyrians - mentioned by name in both the Bible, and history.

So, the first kingdom is Egypt; the second is Assyria, and Daniel continues from Babylon, and prophesies through to Rome. See images referenced earlier.
Babylon is the third kingdom.
Daniel happened to be there in Babylon, to receive God's prophetic word.
Nehemiah was the one who happened to be on hand, when the fourth kingdom gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
Josephus confirmed the fulfillment of Daniel prophecy regarding Media Persia's fall to Greece.
We know the Messiah arrived during the rule of the terrible beast - Rome.
It was still around when the last apostle - John - died.

That's six.

1. Egypt,
2. Assyria,
3. Babylon,
4. Media Persia,
5. Greece,
6. and Rome.

When John wrote the final revelation, his words were accurate. Revelation 17:10 . . .there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

Thus, the little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the sixth beast.
If we get our numbers messed up along the way, that throws our calculations way off course.


There are a few problems with that.

1. We cannot change the political beast into a religious entity. The beast is totally political, and the horns are totally political rulers - kings.
2. In order to rule as a powerful king, this horn needed to "pluck three kingdoms" from the beast. You haven't provided that data.
3. According to history, the papacy is not the "one power" coming out of Rome, that " fits history and prophecy".

A little history...

The term Anglo-Saxon is a relatively modern one. It refers to settlers from the German regions of Angeln and Saxony, who made their way over to Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire around AD 410.​

​

The Roman armies withdrew from Britain early in the fifth century because they were needed back home to defend the crumbling centre of the Empire. Britain was considered a far-flung outpost of little value.​

It's a brief history, so please read on.

We cannot leave out Britain here.
You can read about the Sub-Roman Britain is the period of late antiquity in Great Britain between the end of Roman rule and the Anglo-Saxon settlement.

...and...
The British Empire: The Largest Empire In The World

The British Empire was, at its height, the largest empire the world had ever seen. Covering a quarter of the globe and containing a fifth of the world’s population, it was, quite simply, unmatched in size and scope. Even today, the legacy of the British Empire is still evident in the many countries that were once part of it.​

...As Bommas points out, the Romans dominated this competition for years to come.​

Britain emerged as a world power, History shows how it could have emerged from Rome.
Not only did it emerge as a world power, it pluck three kings from the beast. Thus, Britain fits perfectly in the prophecy of Daniel, and history.
How Britain gained an empire
Conflict with Spain, Holland and France [- three kingdoms].
[The defeat of France] confirmed British control of the region.

There is more, on how the British Empire fits.
However, Britain is not by itself the little horn.
The little horn's emergence starts from a baby, to a full grown adult.
We see its growth from the history timeline given here.

More on that, later.

Daniel was a book about Judah being brought into Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, and the first head of the "beast" would be the head of gold, which was Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:38), of Babylon, not Egypt. Judah and Ephraim are not reunited into a single Israel until Ez 37. Daniel's prophecy was about Judah, the Jews, not Ephraim, the lost 10 tribes, nor Israel/Jacob. You two girls have taken the traditions of your own religions (daughters of Babylon) as truth, which it is not. And the "holy people" of Daniel 7:25 are those who keep the Commandments, which are not the "Christians", who are the followers of the false prophet Paul, and his gospel of lawlessness. Your only exception being is you don't follow Paul's admonition, that women should stay quiet. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. I will give Paul credit for saying it, but not for being able to put it into play, at least in this case.

Daniel 2:38: or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. 39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth. 40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.…

 

[nPeace]

Daniel was a book about Judah being brought into Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, and the first head of the "beast" would be the head of gold, which was Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:38), of Babylon, not Egypt. Judah and Ephraim are not reunited into a single Israel until Ez 37. Daniel's prophecy was about Judah, the Jews, not Ephraim, the lost 10 tribes, nor Israel/Jacob. You two girls have taken the traditions of your own religions (daughters of Babylon) as truth, which it is not. And the "holy people" of Daniel 7:25 are those who keep the Commandments, which are not the "Christians", who are the followers of the false prophet Paul, and his gospel of lawlessness. Your only exception being is you don't follow Paul's admonition, that women should stay quiet. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. I will give Paul credit for saying it, but not for being able to put it into play, at least in this case.

Daniel 2:38: or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. 39But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth. 40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others.…

Did you hear anyone say the head of gold is Egypt?

 

[3rdAngel]

We agree on that. All the beasts and their horns have that in common.
That's correct.

Ok so you agree that the little horn is the Roman Catholic Church. Your response is a little confusing to what you are responding to.

I was looking for some kind of verification for your statement, but not seeing any.

It seems you did not look very hard. If you cannot be bothered looking try Wiki linked.
See also Brill linked; Great Empires of Prophecy linked; Daniel and Bible Prophecy linked; Bible.org linked; Jewish literature linked.
There is too many to list here.

Most historians don't agree with you that the first kingdom in opposition to God's people is Babylon. The Bible does not either.
That would be Egypt - recorded in the book of Exodus, which was conquered by Assyria.
Then we have the Assyrians, which we find in both the Sennacherib Prism and Babylonian Chronicle, and the books of Kings, Chronicles, and Isaiah... which was conquered by Babylon.

The historical timeline is chronological. It's not possible to leave out important characters like the Assyrians - mentioned by name in both the Bible, and history.

So, the first kingdom is Egypt; the second is Assyria, and Daniel continues from Babylon, and prophesies through to Rome. See images referenced earlier.
Babylon is the third kingdom.
Daniel happened to be there in Babylon, to receive God's prophetic word.
Nehemiah was the one who happened to be on hand, when the fourth kingdom gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
Josephus confirmed the fulfillment of Daniel prophecy regarding Media Persia's fall to Greece.
We know the Messiah arrived during the rule of the terrible beast - Rome.
It was still around when the last apostle - John - died.

That's six.

1. Egypt,
2. Assyria,
3. Babylon,
4. Media Persia,
5. Greece,
6. and Rome.

When John wrote the final revelation, his words were accurate. Revelation 17:10 . . .there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

Thus, the little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the sixth beast.
If we get our numbers messed up along the way, that throws our calculations way off course.


There are a few problems with that.

1. We cannot change the political beast into a religious entity. The beast is totally political, and the horns are totally political rulers - kings.
2. In order to rule as a powerful king, this horn needed to "pluck three kingdoms" from the beast. You haven't provided that data.
3. According to history, the papacy is not the "one power" coming out of Rome, that " fits history and prophecy".

A little history...
The term Anglo-Saxon is a relatively modern one. It refers to settlers from the German regions of Angeln and Saxony, who made their way over to Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire around AD 410.

The Roman armies withdrew from Britain early in the fifth century because they were needed back home to defend the crumbling centre of the Empire. Britain was considered a far-flung outpost of little value.
It's a brief history, so please read on.

We cannot leave out Britain here.
You can read about the Sub-Roman Britain is the period of late antiquity in Great Britain between the end of Roman rule and the Anglo-Saxon settlement.

...and...
The British Empire: The Largest Empire In The World
The British Empire was, at its height, the largest empire the world had ever seen. Covering a quarter of the globe and containing a fifth of the world’s population, it was, quite simply, unmatched in size and scope. Even today, the legacy of the British Empire is still evident in the many countries that were once part of it.
...As Bommas points out, the Romans dominated this competition for years to come.

Britain emerged as a world power, History shows how it could have emerged from Rome.
Not only did it emerge as a world power, it pluck three kings from the beast. Thus, Britain fits perfectly in the prophecy of Daniel, and history.
How Britain gained an empire
Conflict with Spain, Holland and France [- three kingdoms].
[The defeat of France] confirmed British control of the region.

There is more, on how the British Empire fits.
However, Britain is not by itself the little horn.
The little horn's emergence starts from a baby, to a full grown adult.
We see its growth from the history timeline given here.

More on that, later.

I think you have a misunderstanding and have missed the point and arguing things I am not talking about in your last two posts. Let me make it clear to you dear friend. I was not arguing anywhere that the first kingdom in opposition to Gods people was Babylon. So everything in your last two posts trying to argue this is what I am saying is a waste of time. I was arguing that the chronology of world kingdoms was in context to the book of Daniel after the Jews were conquered by the Babylonian Empire shown in Daniel's dream in Danial 2 and Daniel 7 noting the four ruling empires from Daniel's time and Jewish captivity in Babylon. First empire of Jewish captivity in Daniels time being Babylon followed by the Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome. Therefore everything you have posted here is not relevant because you have a misunderstanding on what was said to you and is not what I have been talking about. Therefore there is nothing you have provided in what you have said above in your last two posts that does not make the Roman Catholic Church Mystery Babylon the great the mother of harlots of Revelation 17:1-5.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

Most historians don't agree with you that the first kingdom in opposition to God's people is Babylon. The Bible does not either.
That would be Egypt - recorded in the book of Exodus, which was conquered by Assyria.
Then we have the Assyrians, which we find in both the Sennacherib Prism and Babylonian Chronicle, and the books of Kings, Chronicles, and Isaiah... which was conquered by Babylon.

Thus, the little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the sixth beast.

Most of this already addressed in the last post. I am not arguing what you are stating here. Daniel 2 and 7 are on the first kingdom at the time of Jewish captivity. Your view is not supported in the scripture at all. As shown earlier according to Daniel 7 there is only four beasts from Daniel's time forward when the Jews went into captivity. As shown in earlier posts this included Babylon as shown in the vision of Daniel 2:31-45 and second the Medes and Persians Danial 5:28; Daniel 9:1. According to the historical and Jewish records the two of the four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 2 and 7 was the Greeks (Belly and thighs of Daniel 2 and the 3rd Beast of Daniel 7) who conquered the Medes and Persians under Alexander the Great. This was followed by the 4th beast of Daniel 7:7-25 and legs of iron of Daniel 2:31-32 which is the Roman empire that conquered the Greeks in 146 BC. If you read Daniel 7:7-8 and Daniel 7:20-26 the little horn comes out of the fourth beast the Roman Empire. Which is where the Roman Catholic Church arises. Note in Daniel 7 that the little horn is also different from the rest. It is both a religious and political power which can also be demonstrated in the historical records. You are quite wrong here.

3rdAngel said: What power came out of Rome and continues its politico-religious influence for at least 1,260 years (see Dan. 7:25)? Only one power fits history and prophecy — the papacy.

Your response here...

There are a few problems with that.

1. We cannot change the political beast into a religious entity. The beast is totally political, and the horns are totally political rulers - kings.
2. In order to rule as a powerful king, this horn needed to "pluck three kingdoms" from the beast. You haven't provided that data.
3. According to history, the papacy is not the "one power" coming out of Rome, that " fits history and prophecy".

There is no problem it is actually a perfect fit and the old fit supported by scripture and the historical records.

• 1. Where does the scriptures say that the little horn cannot be both a political and religious power? You are making this up and reading that view into the scriptures. The Romans Catholic Church was both political and religious that is how it fits into Revelation as the great apostate whore (scripture provided earlier) it is even its own country today having its own embassies.
• 2. Perfect fit. The little horn arises from the fourth beast (Daniel 7:8). The fourth beast represents Rome, so the little horn must be a Roman power. The little horn arises among the ten horns. The ten horns are the divisions of Western Europe, so the little horn must arise in Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). Notice that these first two characteristics restrict the geographical location of the little horn to Western Europe. The little horn rises after the ten horns (7:24). According to historians, the ten horns were complete in the year 476 A. D., so this must mean that the little horn was to arise to power sometime after 476 A. D. The little horn was to pluck up three of the first [ten] horns by the roots (7:8). This means that these three nations would be uprooted from history. Daniel 7:20-21 explains that three of the first horns would fall before the little horn, and Daniel 7:24 tells us that the little horn would subdue three horns. In other words, three of the first ten nations would disappear from history!! The three horns that were plucked up before it—historically by civil power and authorities—were the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths. The motivation for the removal of these powere was not merely political; it was also theological because they were Arian by religious convictions. Although it lingered on for a few more years, the military force of the third of these opposing powers or horns was decimated by the plague that struck the Ostrogothic camp during the siege of Rome in 537–538. When they withdrew, the bishop of Rome and his city stood independent of barbarian control for the first time in two-thirds of a century—since the sack of Rome in 476. In the political vacuum that developed through the next two decades following the lifting of the siege, the bishop of Rome acquired civil responsibility for the city as well. Thus the year 538 can be seen as an important turning point in the development of the medieval papacy
• 3. No one ever said it was. The little horn though is described as being different from all the others and there are other distinguishing things that it does that give give the little horn a perfect fit to the Roman Catholic Church. For example the little horn was to speak great words against the Most High (7:21, 25). Revelation 13:5 explains what these words would be, namely, blasphemy. And, what is blasphemy according to the Bible? It is when a merely human power claims to be God on earth and when it thinks it can exercise the prerogatives and functions of God (see, John 10:30-33; Mark 2:7). The little horn was to be a persecuting power against God’s people. This is stated in Daniel 7:21 and repeated in verse 25. The little horn would think it could change God=s Atimes@, that is to say, God=s timetable of prophetic events. (Daniel 2:21). We shall see that the little horn invented false systems of prophetic interpretation to rival historicism. The little horn would even have the audacity to THINK that it could change God=s holy law. (7:25). The little horn would be different from the ten horns. It would be an amalgamation of church and state (7:24).

A little history...
The term Anglo-Saxon is a relatively modern one. It refers to settlers from the German regions of Angeln and Saxony, who made their way over to Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire around AD 410.

The Roman armies withdrew from Britain early in the fifth century because they were needed back home to defend the crumbling centre of the Empire. Britain was considered a far-flung outpost of little value.
It's a brief history, so please read on.

We cannot leave out Britain here.
You can read about the Sub-Roman Britain is the period of late antiquity in Great Britain between the end of Roman rule and the Anglo-Saxon settlement.

...and...
The British Empire: The Largest Empire In The World
The British Empire was, at its height, the largest empire the world had ever seen. Covering a quarter of the globe and containing a fifth of the world’s population, it was, quite simply, unmatched in size and scope. Even today, the legacy of the British Empire is still evident in the many countries that were once part of it.
...As Bommas points out, the Romans dominated this competition for years to come.

Britain emerged as a world power, History shows how it could have emerged from Rome.
Not only did it emerge as a world power, it pluck three kings from the beast. Thus, Britain fits perfectly in the prophecy of Daniel, and history.
How Britain gained an empire
Conflict with Spain, Holland and France [- three kingdoms].
[The defeat of France] confirmed British control of the region.

There is more, on how the British Empire fits.
However, Britain is not by itself the little horn.
The little horn's emergence starts from a baby, to a full grown adult.
We see its growth from the history timeline given here.

More on that, later.

This section of your post does not have anything to do with what we are talking about. (see first post above). I am not arguing what you are stating here. Daniel 2 and 7 are talking about the first kingdom at the time of Jewish captivity which is Babylon stated in the scripture in Daniel 2 and the three other kingdoms that were to follow.

Take Care

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: Exodus 34:14-16 is supporting what I have already posted to you. In bible prophecy Gods people a linked to the bride of Christ being pure dressed in white and a whore represents Gods people that are unfaithful to God as shown from the scriptures in the full post you are quoting from. Exodus 34:14-16 says "14, For you (context is to Gods people) shall worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:15, Lest you (context is to Gods people) make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice to their gods, and one call you, and you eat of his sacrifice;16, And you (context is to Gods people) take of their (context to unbelievers) daughters to your (believers) sons, and their (context to unbelievers) daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make your sons (context is to Gods people) go a whoring after their gods."

Your response here...

Please read that carefully 3rdAngel. Here it is in Greek....and the English reads... Lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods, and make sacrifices to their gods, and invites you, and you eat of his sacrifices... Not referring to God's people, but people of the nations.

See above highlighted you are simply wrong. The scriptures are referring to Gods people going a whoring and following the people of the land see the contexts highlighted in red. The old testament is not written in Greek but Hebrew and you only posted a link to a single scripture. Here is the Hebrew linked and you can hit the arrows for all three scriptures that agree with what is posted in red above.

We already know it's not literal. I think you read the OP.We already read Genesis 10:8-10, where we got that.
Is there a reason for your stating all of this, 3rdAngel?

Yes absolutely, it shows the origins of Mystery Babylon, religion with Nimrod as the resurrected Sun God, Semiramis as the Moon goddess and Tamuz as the reincarnation counterfeit of Christs immaculate conception.

You can give me the link to read, you know. Stating all of this with no references is only saying... "This is what 3rdAngel says..."
That doesn't do anything, in scriptural debates. If you think the history is important, a link would suffice, for everyone's viewing... if they want to know.

Please be honest you were provided one reference from 1st edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica [6, page 356] and another link from Nimrod, Mighty Hunter and King - Who Was He? - TheTorah.com). There is many historical links on this topic that is also linked to the scriptures already provided.

Ah. I think I understand the reason for your posting all that. Your reasoning led you to conclude that "Sacrament" in the RCC is linked to sun worship. Therefore, that makes the RCC Babylon the Great. ................................................................but that's your reasoning 3rdAngel. That's not scripture. Another person might say, "Oh, it's Buddhism, because... oh look. Sun Worship. See." Another would come up with their own reasoning... but what's the scriptural basis?

No not at all and for you to say that only make me think you have not been reading my posts to you (Little horn?).

Oh good. Scripture. That's what we are looking for. Yes, the little horn is the same, in both Chapters.

A little horn.

In Chapter 7, the beast had ten horns. Three were removed by this one clearly visible horn.
You are going to tell me about those, I hope. Surely you aren't going to pin the RCC on this horn without explaining the ten, and the three removed.

I'll also be interested in what you come up with, as to the identity of the four beasts of Daniel 7.
Does it agree with this?

I'm really looking forward to hearing your explanations.

What is there to explain? What you have posted here in the image is what I have already posted in my posts to you. You are forgetting though that the little horn from Daniel 7 comes out of the 4th beast (Rome).

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

That would put the Roman church as a harlot daughter of Babylon, and the mother of the Protestant churches, all of which would be sitting on the beast (Rev 13:4) and waiting to be "thrown down with violence". (Rev 18:21)

There is no evidence for that interpretation of the scriptures as already shown in the previous posts you have not addressed so we will agree to disagree. The Roman Catholic Church was before Protestantism. If you study history Protestantism came out of the Roman Catholic Church making the Roman Catholic Church the mother of Protestantism.

 

[2ndpillar]

Did you hear anyone say the head of gold is Egypt?

The illustration showed "Egypt" as the first head, which is ridiculous with respect to the context.

quote:
That's six.

1. Egypt,
2. Assyria,
3. Babylon,
4. Media Persia,
5. Greece,
6. and Rome.

 

[2ndpillar]

There is no evidence for that interpretation of the scriptures as already shown in the previous posts you have not addressed so we will agree to disagree. The Roman Catholic Church was before Protestantism. If you study history Protestantism came out of the Roman Catholic Church making the Roman Catholic Church the mother of Protestantism.

The Roman church is the mother of the Protestant church, but both are daughters of "Babylon the Great", the mystery church which came out of Babel, and they all recognize and worship the sun god, either in the form of the "dragon" (Rev 13:4), Bel, or Sol Invictus, whose day is Sunday, and whose birthday is the 25th of December, and whose sister goddess is worshipped during the spring festival day of Astarte/Easter. All these came about during the time of Constantine, the "beast with two horns like a lamb", and whose worshippers will have to drink from the cup of "His anger" (Rev 14:10). Like mother, like daughter, they are all standing around the pot stirring in the wings of newt. The witches lean on their brooms with sometimes their warlocks waiting for favors. I don't think it will turn out well for them. Not being able to discern truth from a lie, they suffer already with respect to health, wealth, and mental acuity.

 

[3rdAngel]

The Roman church is the mother of the Protestant church, but both are daughters of "Babylon the Great"

That is not what the scriptures teach. Revelation 17:5 does not say that Romans Catholic Church (Mother Church of Protestantism) and the Protestant Church's are both daughters. Revelation 17:5 says And on HER FOREHEAD (Context to the Mother of Harlots v5; and the great whore of v1) was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Mystery Babylon the great is the Mother of harlots. As posted already a harlot in bible prophecy represents Gods professed people that have departed God and His Word. The Roman Catholic Church is the Mother Church (Great whore of Revelation 17:1) and her daughters (harlots) that came out of her are apostate Protestantism.

 

[nPeace]

Ok so you agree that the little horn is the Roman Catholic Church. Your response is a little confusing to what you are responding to.

Did I make a mistake?
You said, There are seven common characteristics between the little horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8:
I thought you were saying there are seven common characteristics between the little horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8.
Were you saying something else?

I was agreeing with the characteristics you mentioned.
I did not realize you were speaking about the characteristics of the RCC.

It seems you did not look very hard. If you cannot be bothered looking try Wiki linked.
See also Brill linked; Great Empires of Prophecy linked; Daniel and Bible Prophecy linked; Bible.org linked; Jewish literature linked.
There is too many to list here.

I'm sure I didn't miss anything. No link followed your statement History identifies the first kingdom as Babylon (Dan. 2:38).
Can I ask... are you Seventh Day Adventist?

Your first link is on the Four kingdoms of Daniel.
No one contests that Babylon is the first world power in the dream. It's right there in the Bible.
I made mention of it.
So, the first kingdom is Egypt; the second is Assyria, and Daniel continues from Babylon, and prophesies through to Rome. See images referenced earlier.
I also provided images.

Your second link does not load.

I think you have a misunderstanding and have missed the point and arguing things I am not talking about in your last two posts. Let me make it clear to you dear friend.

I don't think so.

I was not arguing anywhere that the first kingdom in opposition to Gods people was Babylon. So everything in your last two posts trying to argue this is what I am saying is a waste of time.

I was not arguing that's what you were saying. I'm making a point. I'm allowed to do that, aren't I? It's a relevant point... as I concluded.
Thus, the little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the sixth beast. If we get our numbers messed up along the way, that throws our calculations way off course.

I was arguing that the chronology of world kingdoms was in context to the book of Daniel after the Jews were conquered by the Babylonian Empire shown in Daniel's dream in Danial 2 and Daniel 7 noting the four ruling empires from Daniel's time and Jewish captivity in Babylon. First empire of Jewish captivity in Daniels time being Babylon followed by the Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome. Therefore everything you have posted here is not relevant because you have a misunderstanding on what was said to you and is not what I have been talking about.

I don't understand the point.
Why is that relevant?

Therefore there is nothing you have provided in what you have said above in your last two posts that does not make the Roman Catholic Church Mystery Babylon the great the mother of harlots of Revelation 17:1-5.

Take Care.

You're right. What I said there was in reference to your statement - History identifies the first kingdom as Babylon (Dan. 2:38). Not the claim regarding the RCC.
I covered that in the section after.
Did you respond to it?

You did.
With this...

This section of your post does not have anything to do with what we are talking about. (see first post above). I am not arguing what you are stating here. Daniel 2 and 7 are talking about the first kingdom at the time of Jewish captivity which is Babylon stated in the scripture in Daniel 2 and the three other kingdoms that were to follow.​

​

Take Care​

That's odd. It's almost as if you read none of it.
Did you read it? It actually addresses the claim you made, where you said... What power came out of Rome and continues its politico-religious influence for at least 1,260 years (see Dan. 7:25)? Only one power fits history and prophecy — the papacy.

It showed... with references, that Britain fits the bill.
Your response to that information would be appreciated.

 

[2ndpillar]

That is not what the scriptures teach. Revelation 17:5 does not say that Romans Catholic Church (Mother Church of Protestantism) and the Protestant Church's are both daughters. Revelation 17:5 says And on HER FOREHEAD (Context to the Mother of Harlots v5; and the great whore of v1) was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Mystery Babylon the great is the Mother of harlots. As posted already a harlot in bible prophecy represents Gods professed people that have departed God and His Word. The Roman Catholic Church is the Mother Church (Great whore of Revelation 17:1) and her daughters (harlots) that came out of her are apostate Protestantism.

History itself teaches that the Protestant church was born of the Roman church, and she keeps the "abominations" of the Roman Church, which received them from the Babylonian mystery church, whose gods came from Nimrod's Babel. A "harlot" is one who worships the gods of the nations over the creator. Babylon the Great would sit on all "seven" heads of the beasts (Rev 17:3), which starts from the head of gold, Nebuchadnezzar of the Babylonians, to the mix of iron (Romans) and clay (Muslims). Protestants are basically in lock step with the Roman church in the manner she worships the gods of Babylonian, which are the sun god and the goddess of fertility, Astarte, with her spring festival, which is Easter.

New American Standard Bible Revelation 17:3
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

 

[2ndpillar]

So, the first kingdom is Egypt; the second is Assyria, and Daniel continues from Babylon, and prophesies through to Rome. See images referenced earlier.
I also provided images.

Egypt does not come into the equation of Daniel. Daniel refers 1 Babylon 2. Persia 3. Greeks 4. Rome Republic with its triumvirate rulers 5. other horn which undid the triumvirate rule and made Rome a dictatorship 6. the 10 horns/kings (the Roman rulers between their two destructions of Jerusalem) 7. "the other "king who will arise after them (the ten horns) of Daniel 7:24-25 who will "intend to make alterations in times and in law" (Constantine changing the time of the 4th Commandment/Law, the Sabbath in 321 A.D. 8. the combination of the iron (Roman dictatorship such as is occurring in Russia today) and the clay, with respect to the Muslims. Your cutting and pasting of the failed prophecies of the Jehovah witnesses is not going to cut it.

 

[nPeace]

There is no problem it is actually a perfect fit and the old fit supported by scripture and the historical records.

• 1. Where does the scriptures say that the little horn cannot be both a political and religious power? You are making this up and reading that view into the scriptures. The Romans Catholic Church was both political and religious that is how it fits into Revelation as the great apostate whore (scripture provided earlier) it is even its own country today having its own embassies.

Where does the scriptures say that any horn is religious?
Horns were representative of ruling kings and kingdoms... in context.
In the said book of Daniel, we read... Daniel 8:
20 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21 The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, so that four stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power.

(Revelation 17:12) . . .The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings . . .
Do you know of any scriptures that actually referenced horns of beasts to religious entities?

• 2. Perfect fit. The little horn arises from the fourth beast (Daniel 7:8). The fourth beast represents Rome, so the little horn must be a Roman power.

Why must the little horn be a Roman power?

• The little horn arises among the ten horns. The ten horns are the divisions of Western Europe, so the little horn must arise in Western Europe (Daniel 7:8).

The angel did not tell you that, so of course, this is your own belief.
We cannot verify these speculations.

• Notice that these first two characteristics restrict the geographical location of the little horn to Western Europe.

Where?

• The little horn rises after the ten horns (7:24). According to historians, the ten horns were complete in the year 476 A. D., so this must mean that the little horn was to arise to power sometime after 476 A. D.

Which historians are these, and why does their opinion find favor with you?

• The little horn was to pluck up three of the first [ten] horns by the roots (7:8). This means that these three nations would be uprooted from history. Daniel 7:20-21 explains that three of the first horns would fall before the little horn, and Daniel 7:24 tells us that the little horn would subdue three horns. In other words, three of the first ten nations would disappear from history!! The three horns that were plucked up before it—historically by civil power and authorities—were the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths.

The Heruli - With their last kingdom eventually dominated by Rome, and smaller groups integrated into larger political entities, the Heruli disappeared from history around the time of the conquest of Italy by the Lombards.

If the little horn is the RCC, she did not pluck up the Heruli.
The Lombards were a Germanic people.

The Vandals - Their kingdom collapsed in the Vandalic War of 533–34, in which Emperor Justinian I's forces reconquered the province for the Eastern Roman Empire.
it became important to the Roman Empire to destroy the Vandal kingdom.
The Vandals' kingdom was ended by the Byzantine Empire. Not the RCC.

The Ostrogoths - [The Byzantine Emperor Justinian declared] war on the Ostrogoths in 535, in an effort to restore the former western provinces of the Roman Empire. Initially, the Byzantines were successful, but under the leadership of Totila, the Goths reconquered most of the lost territory until Totila's death at the Battle of Taginae. The war lasted almost 21 years and caused enormous damage across Italy, reducing the population of the peninsula. Any remaining Ostrogoths in Italy were absorbed into the Lombards, who established a kingdom in Italy in 568.


All these were conquered by the Roman Empire, as it sought to reclaim territory held by Germanic tribes.
The Roman Empire wiped out most of these tribes - not just three, as it crushed what was in its path.
We still do not see the RCC's involvement.

The little horn was to pluck up three of the first [ten] horns by the roots (7:8).
That's what you said.

• The motivation for the removal of these powere was not merely political; it was also theological because they were Arian by religious convictions. Although it lingered on for a few more years, the military force of the third of these opposing powers or horns was decimated by the plague that struck the Ostrogothic camp during the siege of Rome in 537–538. When they withdrew, the bishop of Rome and his city stood independent of barbarian control for the first time in two-thirds of a century—since the sack of Rome in 476. In the political vacuum that developed through the next two decades following the lifting of the siege, the bishop of Rome acquired civil responsibility for the city as well. Thus the year 538 can be seen as an important turning point in the development of the medieval papacy

This is all what you believe.
The history paints a different picture, and we still do not see how the RCC fits the little horn, as we noted above.

• 3. No one ever said it was. The little horn though is described as being different from all the others and there are other distinguishing things that it does that give give the little horn a perfect fit to the Roman Catholic Church. For example the little horn was to speak great words against the Most High (7:21, 25). Revelation 13:5 explains what these words would be, namely, blasphemy. And, what is blasphemy according to the Bible? It is when a merely human power claims to be God on earth and when it thinks it can exercise the prerogatives and functions of God (see, John 10:30-33; Mark 2:7). The little horn was to be a persecuting power against God’s people. This is stated in Daniel 7:21 and repeated in verse 25. The little horn would think it could change God=s Atimes@, that is to say, God=s timetable of prophetic events. (Daniel 2:21). We shall see that the little horn invented false systems of prophetic interpretation to rival historicism. The little horn would even have the audacity to THINK that it could change God=s holy law. (7:25). The little horn would be different from the ten horns. It would be an amalgamation of church and state (7:24).

The little horn is indeed different... but it's still a horn. It does not become a woman - religion, in order to be different.
It's still a ruling political entity... and Britain is such, with it's ally - America.

The British Empire in 1914
WE may note here briefly the varied nature of the constituents of the British Empire in 1914 which the steamship and railway had brought together. It was and is a quite unique political combination; nothing of the sort has ever existed before.

It will be manifest, therefore, that no single office and no single brain had ever comprehended the British Empire as a whole. It was a mixture of growths and accumulations entirely different from anything that has ever been called an empire before.

In its early stages, Britain fits that description - different from the first ones (Daniel 7:24).
Even as the horn developed, Britain was still a powerful part of it.

 

[nPeace]

The illustration showed "Egypt" as the first head, which is ridiculous with respect to the context.

quote:
That's six.

1. Egypt,
2. Assyria,
3. Babylon,
4. Media Persia,
5. Greece,
6. and Rome.

The first head? So there's more than one head?
The image only has one head - The head of gold... described as representing the king of Babylon. Hence, Babylon.
Babylon conquered Media-Persia, so obviously there was a kingdom before Babylon... and yes, Egypt was conquered by Media-Persia. So, two kingdoms preceded Babylon.

Daniel was given the prophecy from the king of Babylon, through to the kingdom of Rome.... but two kingdom were prior to Babylon, which was not given to Daniel.
There was no need.

However, John referred to those two, along with Daniel's four. 4 + 2 = 6.
(Revelation 17:10) . . .there are seven kings: Five [5] have fallen, one [1] is, and the other [1] has not yet arrived; [5 + 1 = 6 + 1 = 7] but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

Five have fallen (5) - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece
One is (1) (One exists right at the time of John writing this - Rome
The other (1) has not yet arrived - Everyone has a different take on this world power. So, let's put a

So, it goes like this...

 

[nPeace]

Egypt does not come into the equation of Daniel. Daniel refers 1 Babylon 2. Persia 3. Greeks 4. Rome Republic with its triumvirate rulers 5. other horn which undid the triumvirate rule and made Rome a dictatorship 6. the 10 horns/kings (the Roman rulers between their two destructions of Jerusalem) 7. "the other "king who will arise after them (the ten horns) of Daniel 7:24-25 who will "intend to make alterations in times and in law" (Constantine changing the time of the 4th Commandment/Law, the Sabbath in 321 A.D. 8. the combination of the iron (Roman dictatorship such as is occurring in Russia today) and the clay, with respect to the Muslims. Your cutting and pasting of the failed prophecies of the Jehovah witnesses is not going to cut it.

See my previous post.
Which 5 had fallen when John wrote?

 

[3rdAngel]

See my previous post.
Which 5 had fallen when John wrote?

Not relevant.. I was talking Daniel and the four beasts (world empires) Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome. (see my last posts). If you were reading them you should already know this.

 

[nPeace]

Not relevant.. I was talking Daniel and the four beasts (world empires) Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome. (see my last posts). If you were reading them you should already know this.

Are you following? I wasn't talking to you.

 

[3rdAngel]

Did I make a mistake? You said, There are seven common characteristics between the little horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8:
I thought you were saying there are seven common characteristics between the little horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8.
Were you saying something else? I was agreeing with the characteristics you mentioned.
I did not realize you were speaking about the characteristics of the RCC.

Probably. The Roman Catholic Church fits all the characteristics of the little Horn of Daniel 7 and the only power to do so.

I'm sure I didn't miss anything.

I am sure you did. I posted the links that you said were non-existent in your earlier post (e.g. Wiki linked; Brill linked; Great Empires of Prophecy linked; Daniel and Bible Prophecy linked; Bible.org linked; Jewish literature linked. There is too many to list here.

No link followed your statement History identifies the first kingdom as Babylon (Dan. 2:38).

Nonsense. Evert link does.

Your first link is on the Four kingdoms of Daniel.
No one contests that Babylon is the first world power in the dream. It's right there in the Bible.

You were earlier unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

I made mention of it. So, the first kingdom is Egypt; the second is Assyria, and Daniel continues from Babylon, and prophesies through to Rome. See images referenced earlier.

Which was not relevant to Daniel's Little Horn power the Romans Catholic Church that comes out of the 4th Beast (Roman Empire).

I also provided images.

Which I told you agree with with I was sharing with you from Daniel.

Your second link does not load.

Not sure what you are talking about here all the six links should be working ok.

I don't think so.

I do.

I was not arguing that's what you were saying. I'm making a point. I'm allowed to do that, aren't I? It's a relevant point... as I concluded.
Thus, the little horn of Daniel chapter 7 comes forth from the sixth beast. If we get our numbers messed up along the way, that throws our calculations way off course.

The little Horn (Romans Catholic Church) of Daniel 7 comes out of the fourth beast (Roman Empire). Your numbers are already way off in Daniel.

I don't understand the point. Why is that relevant?

Because the Little Horn (Roman Catholic Church) comes out of the 4th Beast (Roman Empire).

You're right. What I said there was in reference to your statement - History identifies the first kingdom as Babylon (Dan. 2:38). Not the claim regarding the RCC. I covered that in the section after. Did you respond to it?

Thank you. I was never saying the first Kingdom of literal Babylon was the Roman Catholic Church. Spiritual Mystery Babylon of Revelation 17 however definitely represents the Roman Catholic Church as does the Little Horn of Daniel 7.

That's odd. It's almost as if you read none of it. Did you read it? It actually addresses the claim you made, where you said... What power came out of Rome and continues its politico-religious influence for at least 1,260 years (see Dan. 7:25)? Only one power fits history and prophecy — the papacy.

I did indeed read your post and covered what you said section by section. You were trying to argue something I was not even talking about in reference to the first Beast of Daniel therefore what you posted was not relevant to what you were responding to. I was never arguing there was other world empires before Babylon. I was only making the point that the four beasts of Daniel start with Babylon which was the world ruling power at the time the Jews went into captivity that Daniel was living in. https://www.religiousforums.com/goto/post?id=8116964

It showed... with references, that Britain fits the bill. Your response to that information would be appreciated.

No it does not. Britain did not come out of the Roman Empire.

Take Care.