Great point. But some (like Islam), detract more from secularism than others.
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Canada anti-islamophobia motion M103
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Great point. But some (like Islam), detract more from secularism than others.
UpperLimits
Active Member
That's an impressive list.
But I have to wonder how many are speaking with "forked tongues?" If they are truly so happy being in the western world and enjoying our freedoms so much; then WHY is there this consistent, subversive movement to implement sharia law? This is NOT being done by a "select few", but is rather, the underscore of the entire Muslim community.
CIP; Great Britian now has over 80 sharia courts that have been demanded by the Muslim people as a whole group. What's the matter? Western laws aren't good enough for them? They need to have their own private class of law for their own group?
This goes directly back to what I was saying in post #218. Their way of life is a complete economic/political/educational/social system all wrapped up under a religious flag. Even the most moderate of them MUST agree with the words of the Quran, and side with the Quran where it is deemed to be in conflict with western values.Call it a "myth" if you will, but that's precisely why people generally don't believe the rhetoric.
Shad
Veteran Member
It would be better to call it anti-Muslim which what is actually happening rather than Islam which is a set of ideas about reality, people, etc, etc.
UpperLimits
Active Member
I'll tell you what IS a real myth, though... Freedom of Speech in Canada. Because any time you have to stop and think, "Gee, does what I'm about to say, or write, or post, etc, going to break the law - YOU DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH ANYMORE!!!"
And that's what this whole M-103 issue is all about.
Morning Minute Does Canada have FREE Speech March 31 2017
And that's what this whole M-103 issue is all about.
Morning Minute Does Canada have FREE Speech March 31 2017
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
M-103 doesn't give anything special protections because M-103 is a motion, not a law, thus it has no legal force. How many times does this need to be said?
UpperLimits
Active Member
That's right. It's a motion. Not a law. And the majority of Canadians want it to STAY that way.
Notanumber
A Free Man
Do Canadians have a problem with Islamophobia?
Is this guy serious?
Is this guy serious?
Discrimination is also a word that can stifle criticism.
The answer is because it is specifically fear of Islamic people and religion that inspired the motion, which is broadened, politely but a bit unnecessarily, to include all discrimination.
It should no more have "Islamophobia" removed in favour of "discrimination" than the movement Black Lives Matter should change their name to "All Lives Matter."
These are two VERY different concerns. It's this sort of conflation that leads to problems.
As for "Black Lives Matter", that could (and should?), be a different thread, but IMO, black lives don't matter to "Black Lives Matter".
I'm sorry, I found the Muslims in that article to be disingenuous. If they truly feel that way about what Islam "should be", they should reform it. They are living in a fantasy world at everyone's expense.
Augustus
…
Why do you always ascribe ulterior motives to all Muslims? How big is your sample of Muslims you know personally on which to base this view that they are likely disingenuous when they express views that differ to your own?
And why (and how) should they 'reform it'? Most Muslims just work, support their family, have fun, etc. reforming a major religion isn't really a priority in life. The average person tends not to take on such tasks preferring just to live their life according to their own values.
Do you feel personally responsible for everything that America does, and see it as your responsibility to reform it? Would you feel it fair if others demanded you were personally accountable for things you don't agree with but haven't taken active, public steps to reform?
I don't. but in this case one of the interviewed Muslims claimed that Islam is about "peace and love". Well there is a LOT of evidence that's counter to that claim. That's why I called it disingenuous.
How to reform it is the billion dollar question. Although step 1 would be to acknowledge that there is a problem. Why reform it? Because it's a main contributor to massive pain and suffering around the world. And to be a Muslim and be ignorant of that fact, especially if you live in a western society, is to have your head in the sand.
Well the difference is that I'm openly critical of America. I'm thrilled that we have a constitution that we can and have amended. I never claim that America has the perfect, timeless, unalterable solution. None of the Muslims interviewed said anything like that. In fact, it's rarer than hen's teeth to ever hear a Muslim criticize Islam in public, and the ones that do, often end up with prices on their heads.
UpperLimits
Active Member
Just kinda curious if I might be included in that "some" you talk about?
By the way, here's an ACTUAL FaceBook post that I made ON MY OWN TIMELINE about 18 months ago. (copied and pasted verbatim) This was when the "Ban the Burqa" idea was being floated around by everyone. I got a lot of flack for this from my friends and family. However: I feel the same way today, as I felt back then.
"Regarding these "Ban the Burqa" posts that are currently going around FaceBook. ( I had to think long and hard about this one.)
I want to make it known right up front that I dislike the burqa. I think it's oppressive to women and it strongly contrasts with Canadian values.
BUT: Before we just go headlong and just ban some religious practice that we don't agree with, simply because it's "not a part of our Canadian Culture." I believe we need to think about this.
For as long as I can remember, I can always recall seeing veiled Muslim women in Canada. In recent years I have seen them more frequently, but that's just because Muslim numbers are growing in relative relationship to the overall population. In other words, with increasing numbers, this is a logical thing to be expected. No cause for alarm.
I understand, and agree with, the security concerns. I agree with the current idea of the Canadian government that requires these women to unveil themselves, behind a closed door, in the presence of a female security person. But I have to question if an outright banning of the item is the proper move.
First off, should Muslim population levels ever reach the point where they have the political ability to control things, there would exist grounds for legitimate justification of reciprocation against Canadian practices. More specifically, Christian practices, which by the way, are largely seen by Muslims as being one and the same.
But what concerns me more though is the following question. Understanding and considering the repressive nature of this religion; What is the possibility of negative impact against these women?
At the moment, these women are free to travel, mix, and mingle with other Canadians. Yes, they must remain covered for religious reasons, but they are still relatively free to coexist in society. Surely, this exposure to our culture and it's freedoms must have SOME impact on people. Hopefully for the better!
Now: If you force them out of their burqa's, the Muslim community may simply respond by not allowing them to even leave their own homes. You, can tell them they are "free," and you can tell them this until 'the cows come home.' But they will believe their religious leaders, and follow the demands of oppressive men, LOOOOOOONG before they will ever listen to you. Thus, by banning this religious item, you may end up inadvertently imprisoning the very women you initially set out to set "free." "
I'm not against the Muslim faith. (Few people actually are.) Frankly, I really don't care what they want to believe as far as their religion, or practices go. But when they step out of the mosque and into the schools / political / social and legal areas of life, I believe I have the right to speak against their position without being called names and labelled by some social justice keyboard warriors who generally don't have a clue what they're talking about. The biggest problem in these conversations is people who conflate the issues, rather than dealing with them directly.I want to make it known right up front that I dislike the burqa. I think it's oppressive to women and it strongly contrasts with Canadian values.
BUT: Before we just go headlong and just ban some religious practice that we don't agree with, simply because it's "not a part of our Canadian Culture." I believe we need to think about this.
For as long as I can remember, I can always recall seeing veiled Muslim women in Canada. In recent years I have seen them more frequently, but that's just because Muslim numbers are growing in relative relationship to the overall population. In other words, with increasing numbers, this is a logical thing to be expected. No cause for alarm.
I understand, and agree with, the security concerns. I agree with the current idea of the Canadian government that requires these women to unveil themselves, behind a closed door, in the presence of a female security person. But I have to question if an outright banning of the item is the proper move.
First off, should Muslim population levels ever reach the point where they have the political ability to control things, there would exist grounds for legitimate justification of reciprocation against Canadian practices. More specifically, Christian practices, which by the way, are largely seen by Muslims as being one and the same.
But what concerns me more though is the following question. Understanding and considering the repressive nature of this religion; What is the possibility of negative impact against these women?
At the moment, these women are free to travel, mix, and mingle with other Canadians. Yes, they must remain covered for religious reasons, but they are still relatively free to coexist in society. Surely, this exposure to our culture and it's freedoms must have SOME impact on people. Hopefully for the better!
Now: If you force them out of their burqa's, the Muslim community may simply respond by not allowing them to even leave their own homes. You, can tell them they are "free," and you can tell them this until 'the cows come home.' But they will believe their religious leaders, and follow the demands of oppressive men, LOOOOOOONG before they will ever listen to you. Thus, by banning this religious item, you may end up inadvertently imprisoning the very women you initially set out to set "free." "
UpperLimits
Active Member
Well, early results are in and it looks like not much will be changing. I was hopeful, but it looks like the media was actually right for a change when they predicted "no change" either. All the ridings were in traditional strongholds of their respective parties. But I think the real interesting part will be in the actual numbers. These tend to tell the truth about what people are thinking and even small changes can be significant.
Augustus
…
Their version of Islam probably is. People are defensive about parts of their identity, we evolved that way.
Why does it fall on any individual to reform it though, and why should all those those who don't actively do so be considered disingenuous?
They are critical of Jihadis, just as you are critical of the aspects of America you don't like. It isn't enough to be critical though, you must 'reform it' otherwise you are not to be trusted.
When you demand that others jump through special hoops constructed around your own personal worldview it is not surprising if they don't want to join in. This is especially true when you steadfastly refuse to make any distinction between their worldview and that of the Wahabbi types.
Millions of Muslims will gladly criticise hardliners, as long as you give them the option of separating their views from those they don't like. You need to give people this option in discourse and it is impossible to have meaningful discussions if you don't. Don't expect people to self-flagellate at your command though.
Notanumber
A Free Man
The big difference is that westerners do not follow a dictate that states that we should kill non-westerners.
Notanumber
A Free Man
Is Ayaan Hirsi Ali suffering from Islamophobia?
I wasn't conflating the people and the religion.
I don't know you, so I couldn't say.