Cannabis and violence, mass killings

[Shadow Wolf]

I feel like the more reasonable response to this "correlation" is the FACT that a ridiculously large number of people use cannabis. Also, alcohol has a much higher correlation to violence than cannabis has ever been shown to. So, why the emphasis on cannabis rather than alcohol?

IMO, it has to do with decades of all the smears campaigns that called pot the "devil's weed," rampant racism at the center of making it illegal, things like Refer Madness, and the many lies and misinformation that have been spread about pot. Many people still believe it's a "gateway drug," and many people do get scared about people who are stoned because they think marijuana makes you loose all control of yourself.

 

[leibowde84]

IMO, it has to do with decades of all the smears campaigns that called pot the "devil's weed," rampant racism at the center of making it illegal, things like Refer Madness, and the many lies and misinformation that have been spread about pot. Many people still believe it's a "gateway drug," and many people do get scared about people who are stoned because they think marijuana makes you loose all control of yourself.

The stigma you are referring to is very sad indeed. And, the fact that some people still consider it a "gateway drug", even though the very concept is nonsensical and, even if it wasn't, tobacco, caffeine, alcohol, and prescription medications seem to be much worse than cannabis. There is so much unsubstantiated fears about cannabis that are slowly being washed away by logic, reason, and facts. But, it is still going to be quite some time before people are forced to reconsider.

 

[Ouroboros]

This is a common, though strange, objection. Alcohol is already legal, therefore we should allow more dangerous drugs to be legal? If alcohol was illegal right now, and was not used by the vast majority of the populace, I would oppose its legalisation. However, it is already a widely used drug and restricting it would be extremely difficult, near impossible. Cannabis is a substance that is still illegal (at least in the UK), and the laws already exist, they just aren't being enforced.

The reason why alcohol was made legal was that during the prohibition, crime increased. Basically, we could outlaw everything that is dangerous for us humans and have the government parent us in every corner, but history shows that the free minded spirit of humans will push back and demand the freedom of choice at some point.

When it comes to cannabis compared to alcohol, my understanding is that crimes or accidents caused by alcohol are far greater than the ones caused by cannabis. I could be wrong about this, but that's my impression from news and information over the years. I'm not sure how you consider cannabis to be a more dangerous drug than alcohol.

If it's true that cannabis was involved in the mass killings, we can find the same connection with alcohol. It's fairly well known that many crimes are committed under influence of alcohol.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't understand this term "war on drugs". People who are arrested for cannabis possession don't get convicted, don't get put in prison, don't get punished. There is no effective deterrent by doing this. I don't see much of a war.

Maybe they're not punished as much anymore, but in the past it was one of the reasons to the overcrowded prisons: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/war-on-drugs-prisons-infographic_n_4914884.html

50% of the inmates are in for drug related crimes, and 27% of those (if I understand it right) for cannabis.

 

[Ouroboros]

The classic chilled out stoner stereotype is popular, though there appear to be many negative effects of using cannabis, and if they can already cause mental health problems, how do you explain the correlation between mass killings and cannabis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_cannabis#Mental_health

Perhaps the best path would be to treat alcohol and cannabis abuse as an illness instead of as a crime? There are medical, biological, and psychological reasons to why people get hooked on these things.

 

[Ouroboros]

Heavily taxing alcoholic beverages, harsher punishments for adults giving/selling those drinks to teenagers and children, turn excessive consumption into a crime, harsher ( criminal ) penalties for driving under the influence of alcohol...

In essence, make it a major hassle to consume alcohol.

Or in other words, tax the whole--already overloaded--system with an even larger criminal system. More judges. More courts. More police. More jury selections. More prisons. More money for the corporate jails. Great. Why not make New York a huge prison and put everyone there for just existing?

Solving every problem in society by making it a crime isn't the best solution at all. We have to start attacking these problems in new ways.

 

[leibowde84]

Perhaps the best path would be to treat alcohol and cannabis abuse as an illness instead of as a crime? There are medical, biological, and psychological reasons to why people get hooked on these things.

"Abuse" ... absolutely. But, responsible "use" should not be punished or met with any legal resistance, imho.

 

[Ouroboros]

The stigma you are referring to is very sad indeed. And, the fact that some people still consider it a "gateway drug", even though the very concept is nonsensical and, even if it wasn't, tobacco, caffeine, alcohol, and prescription medications seem to be much worse than cannabis. There is so much unsubstantiated fears about cannabis that are slowly being washed away by logic, reason, and facts. But, it is still going to be quite some time before people are forced to reconsider.

I think the term "gateway drug" is pretty much a "slippery-slope fallacy" argument. We could just as well argue that tobacco is a gateway drug to cannabis. Candy is a gateway drug to tobacco. And a pacifier is a gateway tool to candy. Also, coffee is a gateway drug to alcohol. Soda is a gateway drug to coffee. And baby formula is a gateway drug to soda. In other words, just being born and having to put anything in our mouth is enough to be a gateway to overdosing on some heavy drug... slippery-slope fallacy, in other words.

 

[Koldo]

Or in other words, tax the whole--already overloaded--system with an even larger criminal system. More judges. More courts. More police. More jury selections. More prisons. More money for the corporate jails. Great. Why not make New York a huge prison and put everyone there for just existing?

Solving every problem in society by making it a crime isn't the best solution at all. We have to start attacking these problems in new ways.

Perhaps the best path would be to treat alcohol and cannabis abuse as an illness instead of as a crime? There are medical, biological, and psychological reasons to why people get hooked on these things.

But it is not just an illness. We have a culture of alcohol consumption.
Ideally, the heavier taxes on alcoholic beverage would be used to fund for any additional cost we incur.

 

[leibowde84]

I think the term "gateway drug" is pretty much a "slippery-slope fallacy" argument. We could just as well argue that tobacco is a gateway drug to cannabis. Candy is a gateway drug to tobacco. And a pacifier is a gateway tool to candy. Also, coffee is a gateway drug to alcohol. Soda is a gateway drug to coffee. And baby formula is a gateway drug to soda. In other words, just being born and having to put anything in our mouth is enough to be a gateway to overdosing on some heavy drug... slippery-slope fallacy, in other words.

Well-put.

 

[Ouroboros]

"Abuse" ... absolutely. But, responsible "use" should not be punished or met with any legal resistance, imho.

Agree. I drink alcohol and smoke cigars. But it's not a problem. I don't like being drunk, so I just can't drink too much. I don't like to smoke too much either. I was on a trip to Scandinavia recently for two weeks. Didn't drink or smoke anything during that time. But I do know people who have problems with these things and can't stop. I also know people who use cannabis responsible (and with medical reasons). We just need to grow up as society and deal with these things in a mature way. Just throwing people in jail doesn't solve it.

 

[Ouroboros]

But it is not just an illness. We have a culture of alcohol consumption.
Ideally, the heavier taxes on alcoholic beverage would be used to fund for any additional cost we incur.

I have no issue with taxing. It's the criminalization solution that's a problem. It's been tried in the past, in several countries and times, and it has failed each time. Drug use and abuse need to be treated differently than as a crime. Taxing it, that's one solution that I do support.

Just one thing about taxing though, it has to be done with deft hands. I think it was Washington state that increased the tobacco tax so dramatically that people stopped buying in state and went out of state to get their cigs. At some point it's not a deterrent but rather an incentive to circumvent. We have to account for human psychology and reaction to what we do, and rarely is that done when establishing societal policies.

 

[Ouroboros]

Coffee was banned in Sweden in the 18th century because there was a suspicion that the coffee dens were houses of plots of revolts.

A tax was created first in 1746. Banned in 1756. Tougher laws in 1766. But it didn't work against smuggling and secret use. I think I read once that it increased instead. Then, a few years later, the ban was lifted, and Sweden went into becoming the largest consumer of coffee in the world... And what came out of it? Sweden is the country with the longest history of peace. Damn those coffee drug users. Soon they'll start using something heavier, like caffe mocha or espresso. Just wait and see...

Oh, funny thing, the king ordered experiments on prisoners during that time. (Considered one of the first "medical" trials of drugs in the world.) Two brothers were tested. One was given tea only to drink. The other coffee only. And the doctors would study them to see if coffee made the one brother violent or more prone to anger (I think it was, or something). The outcome? The examiners died before the experiment was concluded. So the moral of the story is. You live longer if you drink tea or coffee (your choice).

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=-V4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5068,2359497&hl=en

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe they're not punished as much anymore, but in the past it was one of the reasons to the overcrowded prisons: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/war-on-drugs-prisons-infographic_n_4914884.html

That point and difference probably is due to Sultan living in the UK, where they have no "war on drugs" or the extra enforcement of drug laws. America has the world's highest incarceration rate, and a very large percentage (with ranges of at least 50% and upwards) are in for nothing more than drugs.

 

[Ouroboros]

That point and difference probably is due to Sultan living in the UK, where they have no "war on drugs" or the extra enforcement of drug laws. America has the world's highest incarceration rate, and a very large percentage (with ranges of at least 50% and upwards) are in for nothing more than drugs.

Right. That's what the article shows. 50% for drug related crimes (many of the for possession over a certain amount, making it "intent to sell" only because of the grams). And 27% (highest of them all, even higher than meth) is cannabis, most of them are probably growers (I think), not necessarily users. It's illegal to grow the plant.

 

[Baladas]

Well, my mother-in-law would be all over this and would quickly share it to Facebook.
Then again, she also believes that cannabis damages the lungs at a greater rate than cigarettes...and on an unrelated note, thinks that Harry Potter is Satanic.

 

[philbo]

However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

Sorry, but this isn't even correlation: it's closer to a sharpshooter fallacy. If you want to look for correlation, you'd need to look through all relevant incidents not just reporting on the ones cherry-picked, and see if there were a higher incidence of cannabis usage among the perpetrators (while needing also to correct for whatever other social factors may be in play)

It's pretty typical Peter Hitchens Mail On Sunday froth-at-the-mouth bull****, though.

 

[columbus]

I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

There is another correlation that seems to be missed.
Cannabis and murder have something in common that alcohol does not. They are both illegal. Alcohol is not.

Living here in the USA I would bet that around here meth could be much more closely correlated to murder rates.
Since cannabis and meth have that same thing in common, I would guess that drug fueled violence would be reduced by legalization of cannabis
Tom

 

[freethinker44]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

From the article I've posted above:
"the culprits of the 2011 Tucson massacre,at which Congreswoman Gabrielle Giffords was terribly wounded and six people died, the culprits of the beheading of Jennifer Mills Westley in Tenerife, of the beheading of Mrs Palmira Silva in London, of the grotesque murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, of the Charlie Hebdo and related killings in Paris, of the killings of two Canadian soldiers in the past year, of the bludgeoning to death of Sheffield church organist Alan Greaves, not to mention a large number of other notably violent and deranged, irrational crimes ( see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/07/high-and-violent.html ) have all been revealed to be cannabis users. Now this killer [the Tunisian shooter] has been revealed to be a cannabis user too."

As the writer of this article also says, I am not personally claiming that cannabis is causing these acts of violence. However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

I urge people to read the articles and research the matter (the above listed events are not the only ones where the perpetrators were cannabis users, there are many more, and many which we simply don't have access to records to know if they did or not. Another example would by Dylan Roof, the Charleston church shooter, who was also a heavy cannabis user). I hope people will not immediately jump to emotional conclusions, dismissing it as false. I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

Another interesting link, all of these mass killers have been known to inhale large amounts of nitrogen. Now, sure the majority of the users are harmless, but you can't deny that some do become psychotic killing machines.

 

[Ouroboros]

Since cannabis and meth have that same thing in common, I would guess that drug fueled violence would be reduced by legalization of cannabis

Agree. When coffee was banned in Sweden in the 18th century, crimes like smuggling and underground activities increased. And it could be observed during the prohibition in US too when banning something like this, it will attract the criminal elements and also associate the very same thing with other crimes. People killed people over smuggled and underground alcohol during the prohibition. My understanding that the mafia had its rise and golden era during that time. The speakeasies flourished in secrecy. But when alcohol was legalized, it wasn't part of the mafia's mainstream business anymore.