Capitalists may have the same mentality as Nazis: that people must be enslaved

[Estro Felino]

That's what transpires from Hannah Arendt's books : that the IG Farben demanded from the Nazis slave labor, and Jews were exploited so that the Capitalists that owned the IG Farben could obtain the profit maximization, and produce chemicals with basically zero costs of productions.

This is what Capitalism does to men: it transforms them into greedy people, who lose their humanhood, so I am entitled to call them greedy wolves.
Greedy, sadistic wolves disposed to enjoy seeing Jews dying while working in those camps.
They even built their factories around Auschwitz on purpose.
It's all in Hannah Arendt's book The banality of evil.

Thoughts?

 

[rocala]

I recall reading something once that had the phrase "capitalism is legally acceptable crime". The general thrust of the argument was that some greed is inevitable so society has to define a tolerable level.
I think the problem was recognised long before Arendt's time. The Christian principle of the rich man and the eye of a needle was I have long suspected, based on a recognition of this.

 

[an anarchist]

This is what Capitalism does to men: it transforms them into greedy people, who lose their humanhood

Thoughts?

Rather a broad generalization, don't ya think? The National Socialist Worker's Party (Nazis) were the masterminds of the holocaust.

I'm sure you wouldn't agree if I said Socialism makes people lose their humanhood, though I can probably make the argument if I wanted to as an anarchist.

In before you says Nazi's weren't socialists: I say you mis characterize capitalism. Here are some threads I've made on my thoughts on capitalism, I don't feel like restating my thoughts in full

What is Capitalism?

Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange, nothing more. Why are so many people against it? What is Capitalism to you? To me, it is really simple and not immoral at all. How can voluntary exchange be wrong?

www.religiousforums.com

Is "wage slavery" actually "slavery"? And is "capitalism" really "voluntary exchange"?

I once said on this site that capitalism is simply voluntary exchange, nothing more. Then people responded saying "it's not voluntary because 'wage slavery'". I've thought about it since then. I still remain unconvinced that capitalism is not voluntary. You don't have to work, you can roll over...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Estro Felino]

Rather a broad generalization, don't ya think? The National Socialist Worker's Party (Nazis) were the masterminds of the holocaust.

Isn't that the same thing?
Do you know how many underpaid workers die at the workplace because of unfair conditions?
Do you know how many people commit suicide because of the banker's greed?
It's something murderous. Not as murderous as Auschwitz, but the logic is similar.

I'm sure you wouldn't agree if I said Socialism makes people lose their humanhood, though I can probably make the argument if I wanted to as an anarchist.

I would agree if you explained why.

It's easy to claim something without being supposed to elaborate.

In before you says Nazi's weren't socialists: I say you mis characterize capitalism. Here are some threads I've made on my thoughts on capitalism, I don't feel like restating my thoughts in full

What is Capitalism?

Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange, nothing more. Why are so many people against it? What is Capitalism to you? To me, it is really simple and not immoral at all. How can voluntary exchange be wrong?

www.religiousforums.com

Is "wage slavery" actually "slavery"? And is "capitalism" really "voluntary exchange"?

I once said on this site that capitalism is simply voluntary exchange, nothing more. Then people responded saying "it's not voluntary because 'wage slavery'". I've thought about it since then. I still remain unconvinced that capitalism is not voluntary. You don't have to work, you can roll over...

www.religiousforums.com

I'll give it a check.

 

[Kfox]

Isn't that the same thing?
Do you know how many underpaid workers die at the workplace because of unfair conditions?

They could always quit

Do you know how many people commit suicide because of the banker's greed?

then stay away from banks

It's something murderous. Not as murderous as Auschwitz, but the logic is similar.

Auschwitz they didn't have the option to quit or stay away

 

[Estro Felino]

They could always quit

then stay away from banks

When the State sides with the perpetrators, and not with the victims, it's almost like an imposition.

Auschwitz they didn't have the option to quit or stay away

I am sorry...but I still can't see any difference.
And by the way....I would like the IG Farben's topic to be discussed.

 

[Stevicus]

That's what transpires from Hannah Arendt's books : that the IG Farben demanded from the Nazis slave labor, and Jews were exploited so that the Capitalists that owned the IG Farben could obtain the profit maximization, and produce chemicals with basically zero costs of productions.

This is what Capitalism does to men: it transforms them into greedy people, who lose their humanhood, so I am entitled to call them greedy wolves.
Greedy, sadistic wolves disposed to enjoy seeing Jews dying while working in those camps.
They even built their factories around Auschwitz on purpose.
It's all in Hannah Arendt's book The banality of evil.

Thoughts?

They're similar, but not necessarily the same. Capitalism tempered by Keynesian liberalism and strict adherence to the principles of human rights might work for a while, as it did in the U.S. from roughly 1945 to the 1970s. Ironically, it was the capitalists themselves (led by Reagan, Greenspan, Friedman, et al.) who were complaining that the system at the time didn't work and they were desperate to change it. Reagan got elected by trashing the policies which led to the greatest period of economic growth and affluence that the U.S. has ever seen before or since.

So, the lesson Reagan taught us was that capitalists don't like capitalism when it actually works for the benefit of the people and the country as a whole. It wasn't slavery (because of unionization and labor reforms which helped improve working conditions and America's standard of living). But Reagan and his ilk didn't like that. They didn't like the idea of common people having relatively decent lives. Somehow that offended them, like some Roman Praetor who would be offended by plebians moving beyond their station. (Technically not slaves, but freed men still considered far below their "betters.")

Equality offends them, as it goes against their idea of "human nature," which gives a clue to their underlying Social Darwinist belief system.

 

[Estro Felino]

They're similar, but not necessarily the same. Capitalism tempered by Keynesian liberalism and strict adherence to the principles of human rights might work for a while, as it did in the U.S. from roughly 1945 to the 1970s. Ironically, it was the capitalists themselves (led by Reagan, Greenspan, Friedman, et al.) who were complaining that the system at the time didn't work and they were desperate to change it. Reagan got elected by trashing the policies which led to the greatest period of economic growth and affluence that the U.S. has ever seen before or since.

So, the lesson Reagan taught us was that capitalists don't like capitalism when it actually works for the benefit of the people and the country as a whole. It wasn't slavery (because of unionization and labor reforms which helped improve working conditions and America's standard of living). But Reagan and his ilk didn't like that. They didn't like the idea of common people having relatively decent lives. Somehow that offended them, like some Roman Praetor who would be offended by plebians moving beyond their station. (Technically not slaves, but freed men still considered far below their "betters.")

A great philosopher would say that sadism is what makes people actually evil.
That is they cannot bear the fact that people are happy. It's like others' happiness bothered them.
I know because I am the other way around: I cannot bear the fact that people are unhappy. My happiness depend on others' happiness.

At least we Christians believe in a otherworldly justice, so it doesn't bother me much.
I know that to atheist that might sound more pointless and unjust.

Equality offends them, as it goes against their idea of "human nature," which gives a clue to their underlying Social Darwinist belief system.

Because they believe they are superior to others, so equality is something ridiculous in their sick minds.
The term élite means: the chosen ones. From Latin electi.

 

[Stevicus]

A great philosopher would say that sadism is what makes people actually evil.
That is they cannot bear the fact that people are happy. It's like others' happiness bothered them.
I know because I am the other way around: I cannot bear the fact that people are unhappy. My happiness depend on others' happiness.

At least we Christians believe in a otherworldly justice, so it doesn't bother me much.
I know that to atheist that might sound more pointless and unjust.

I see it more as a matter of cause and effect, although I've observed it as a familiar pattern in history. Even going back to the time of the Roman Empire and the slave revolts they had to contend with.

In my mind, it's relatively easy to understand why slaves would be unhappy with their lot and why they would rise up in revolt if they had a chance.

What floors me is that the elite often express confusion and incredulity about such things. They don't know why a slave might revolt against his/her master. Likewise, they don't know why there's a higher crime rate in poor neighborhoods. They don't know why poor and impoverished countries might behave with hostility or aggression. They don't know why the lower classes are angry or why there's so much dissension and discord in society. Or if they do know, they're pretending not to know.

Because they believe they are superior to others, so equality is something ridiculous in their sick minds.
The term élite means: the chosen ones. From Latin electi.

Yeah, although that sheen is starting to wear off with a lot of people. People are starting to see that these capitalists are not all that they're cracked up to be, and they can be defeated. Even the capitalists seem to be getting a sense of that, as they're obviously in panic mode these days.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thoughts?

Some capitalists were slavers.
Some socialists were slavers, murderers, thieves, & fascists.

 

[Estro Felino]

Some capitalists were slavers.

A little correction Most capitalists, by definition, are slavers, since they aim at the profit maximization, which is reached by underpaying employees.
The philanthropist-Capitalists are actually the minority (in my opinion the 0,000000000001%)

Some socialists were slavers, murderers, thieves, & fascists.

Also racists.
Whataboutism. I learned this word from you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Whataboutism. I learned this word from you.

In this case, whataboutism isn't to deflect.
It was to show that your broad claim would
apply even to your own beloved socialism.
Thus my post was about your approach,
rather than your subject.

 

[Kfox]

When the State sides with the perpetrators, and not with the victims, it's almost like an imposition.

The State does not force you to deal with banks, you choose to deal with them.

I am sorry...but I still can't see any difference. And by the way....I would like the IG Farben's topic to be discussed.

If you don't like the game, why do you insist on being a part of it? Why don't cha go start your own game. That would be like me going to my neighbor's house for food, then complaining the food doesn't taste good.

 

[Kfox]

A little correction Most capitalists, by definition, are slavers, since they aim at the profit maximization, which is reached by underpaying employees.

By definition, if you are paying someone to work for you, you are not a slaver.
IMO Capitalism is the most moral economic system; because you have to improve somebody else's life before you can improve your own via profit.

 

[Stevicus]

A little correction Most capitalists, by definition, are slavers, since they aim at the profit maximization, which is reached by underpaying employees.
The philanthropist-Capitalists are actually the minority (in my opinion the 0,000000000001%)

Also racists.
Whataboutism. I learned this word from you.

One thing to take into consideration is in regard to what the stated ideals and principles of either socialism or capitalism might be, as opposed to how they actually operated in practice.

Many might point to the USSR as an example of a socialist society in practice, although they also had a Constitution which forbade slavery, murder, thievery, and fascism/racism. If those atrocities occurred in that country, it wasn't because their Constitution or the ideology they claimed to be practicing said it was okay to do that. In fact, I think most socialists make it quite clear that these things are definitely not okay.

In contrast, capitalism has had to evolve, but if we look at the U.S. Constitution as a point of comparison, the original Constitution said slavery was okay. It also did not forbid expansionist fascism and racism spreading across the continent. Of course, murder and thievery were always against the law, but for much of the time, that only really was enforced if the victims were white. If someone killed Native Americans and stole their land, they didn't call it murder or thievery. That was Manifest Destiny. Meanwhile, capitalism flourished.

The main ideal or principle of capitalism is to make money, and it gives no consideration as to how it is done. Even if Western liberal democracies slowly outlawed slavery, child labor, sweat shops, and other such scourges of capitalism, they still exist in other countries to the benefit of capitalists who call it "outsourcing" in a "global economy."

But now, they've reached a kind of plateau where there's nowhere else they can go.

 

[rocala]

If you don't like the game, why do you insist on being a part of it? Why don't cha go start your own game.

Quite simply, that is not a choice. Quite a few people do start their "own game". You may choose to hunt your own food. You may then get arrested for catching out of season, or its an endangered species or you may simply starve because the state/society has destroyed so much of the environment. Try fishing and there is a good chance that you are poaching.

If your clothes wear out you may be arrested for indecency. You may well be arrested as a vagrant anyway.
You are born into a system and it is near on impossible to escape it. You have to obey those laws and if they want to conscript you they will.

I am a part of society, for the most part I am happy to accept that. But, I am not under any illusion that I am free to start my own game. I will leave that to the revolutionaries.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This is what Capitalism does to men: it transforms them into greedy people, who lose their humanhood

It didn't do that to me, nor most other capitalists that I know, which is just about everybody I know.

You seem to be calling robber baron or unregulated capitalism unqualified capitalism. I'm the kind of capitalist who supports a degree of socialism and a lot of regulation to keep the greedy people of whom you write in check.

Here's what the profit incentive motivates people to do:

• Work harder
• Be efficient.
• Be innovative.
• Rob and cheat others while despoiling the environment.

Three of those help everybody, and the last can be mitigated.

In the States, that's the war the Republicans are waging. They want the protections instituted by liberals removed. That's who you're talking about, and those are enemies and parasites.

But somebody like me is entirely different. I support having those regulations. And I wasn't interested in cheating or otherwise harming anybody. I successfully competed for a seat in medical school because of the many things it would bring me (which was more than money), worked long hours studying, in residency, and then in practice, traded my skills for a good living, and made a difference in people's lives for the things capitalism could provide me. That's what the profit incentive drives people to do. I sure wouldn't do all of that for the same wages and other perks I could earn doing much less.

Most capitalists fit that description. They're selling their time or labor or product or expertise, not losing their humanity.

 

[Estro Felino]

By definition, if you are paying someone to work for you, you are not a slaver.

If you are paying a worker 200 dollars a week for 50 hours a week...what are you? A benefactor?

IMO Capitalism is the most moral economic system; because you have to improve somebody else's life before you can improve your own via profit.

Yes...especially in Africa...where capitalists exploit the desperate labor force.

 

[Estro Felino]

It didn't do that to me, nor most other capitalists that I know, which is just about everybody I know.

You seem to be calling robber baron or unregulated capitalism unqualified capitalism. I'm the kind of capitalist who supports a degree of socialism and a lot of regulation to keep the greedy people of whom you write in check.

Here's what the profit incentive motivates people to do:

• Work harder
• Be efficient.
• Be innovative.
• Rob and cheat others while despoiling the environment.

Three of those help everybody, and the last can be mitigated.

In the States, that's the war the Republicans are waging. They want the protections instituted by liberals removed. That's who you're talking about, and those are enemies and parasites.

But somebody like me is entirely different. I support having those regulations. And I wasn't interested in cheating or otherwise harming anybody. I successfully competed for a seat in medical school because of the many things it would bring me (which was more than money), worked long hours studying, in residency, and then in practice, traded my skills for a good living, and made a difference in people's lives for the things capitalism could provide me. That's what the profit incentive drives people to do. I sure wouldn't do all of that for the same wages and other perks I could earn doing much less.

Most capitalists fit that description. They're selling their time or labor or product or expertise, not losing their humanity.

You know...I have decided not to have children because I don't want my children to be enslaved by the rotten Capitalistic system.
I belong to a little political party. We protest every now and then.

Once a colleague even spat at a cop in the face, for he wanted to forbid us from protesting.

 

[Estro Felino]

In this case, whataboutism isn't to deflect.
It was to show that your broad claim would
apply even to your own beloved socialism.
Thus my post was about your approach,
rather than your subject.

It's a pity that you didn't address the parallelism between the Auschwitz labor camp, IG Farben and Capitalism.