Cartones,burn Quran day,film, what next ?

[Godobeyer]

It's not the word "kafir" that's offensive, Godobeyer. It's the connotation behind it. I have yet to see the word used in a positive light. It's always like: "those KAFIRS act like this, dress like that, etc."

I agree with you little bit , when it's used to bring hate against non-muslims ,especialy the innocents .

me too i will not called any one Kafir (without any reason , in the right time and place ) , it's not the Ethics our prophet Muhammad (pbuh) .

I never call anyone a kafir; I have NO idea what is in their hearts.

how about if he/she give you an idea what in his/her heart, he/she clarify his own disbelieve to islam ....etc ?

or
if some one cleary represent his hate to Islam or God or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , what you would called him ?

what you will called him ? muslims or "kafir'"/disbeliever ?

 

[Storm]

I agree with you little bit , when it's used to bring hate against non-muslims ,especialy the innocents .

me too i will not called any one Kafir (without any reason , in the right time and place ) , it's not the Ethics our prophet Muhammad (pbuh) .




how about if he/she give you an idea what in his/her heart, he/she clarify his own disbelieve to islam ....etc ?

or
if some one cleary represent his hate to Islam or God or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , what you would called him ?

what you will called him ? muslims or "kafir'"/disbeliever ?

I don't speak a word of Arabic, so this is obviously second hand, but I was always told it meant "infidel," not simply "disbeliever." There's a world of difference between those words in English.

 

[nameless]

Are you sure? There are lots of Hindu fanatics in India who oppress the minorities. Human rights violations, police brutality ... not good evidence for Hindu being mild-mannered.

there are only very few such fanatics, but why dont these fanatics oppress the jews and zorashtrians? the answer is, they behave well, hence they are treated well.
Im not justifying those hindu fanatics, but if one party is attacked, it is more likely that some will react in the same manner.

 

[Godobeyer]

yes it does.



And im worthy of death and damnation just because of this, that is what is insulting.

then what you suggest ?

Hmm, any pictures of Hindus clashing with police in western countries?????

How many Hindus killed Russian, when they decided to Ban the Gita?

How many violent clashes of Hindus and Police about the Gita thing in Sydney Australia?????

How many Russian embassies burned and people killed because of the Gita Ban protests???

we are talking in general , not specific events .
my point is the hindus protesting and clashing also .

 

[Godobeyer]

I don't speak a word of Arabic, so this is obviously second hand, but I was always told it meant "infidel," not simply "disbeliever." There's a world of difference between those words in English.

that's right , it's close to word infidel more than disbeliever , but it's contiant the two meaning in arabic .

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Are you sure? There are lots of Hindu fanatics in India who oppress the minorities. Human rights violations, police brutality ... not good evidence for Hindu being mild-mannered.

Well India is a Hindu majority country, there are bound to be people who see the minorities as what they are, just minorities. Majority rule should always be the case in any nation. The point i was trying to make was that the Fanaticism of Hindus in their home Land does not cause chaos in non Hindu majority nations.

Hindus generally respect the Laws of the county they are in, and Hindus in India dont have a hatred of America or the west, not like that which is compared to the Islamic countries.

Hindu fanaticism generally stems from the activities of the Minority groups within India, just like in any country where the majority feels threatened by the Minority then there is bound to be conflict. Hinduism has nothing to do with instigating of violence, its more of a political agenda.

As i said, any well cultured civilized human being can practice Ahimsa, I did not say that only Hindus can.

When i say mild mannered, i mean that the majority of Hindus world wide are not involved in any violent conflicts that may reflect on the Hindus as a violent minority group.

But when it come to Islam, they are more violent within and outside their countries. Hindus dont cause riots in Australia if something happens in India.

And a good example is the ban the Gita thing that happened in Russia, can you imagine if they said they were banning the Koran?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Godobeyer;3091666]then what you suggest ?

Remove it from the Koran.

we are talking in general , not specific events .
my point is the hindus protesting and clashing also .

Yes they do, but in Hindu Majority countries, not in the West.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Remove it from the Koran.

Every holy book should be rewritten at least once each century.

 

[beenie]

how about if he/she give you an idea what in his/her heart, he/she clarify his own disbelieve to islam ....etc ?

or
if some one cleary represent his hate to Islam or God or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , what you would called him ?

what you will called him ? muslims or "kafir'"/disbeliever ?

I don't label people; it's not my place to do so.

 

[Riverwolf]

Some people may say that Hindus are too weak to be violent.

Well, if non-violence = weak, and violence = strong, I'd say being weak is the better option.

Of course, what kind of strength does it take to disobey every single instinctive impulse to be violent at a given moment? How weak is it to have no control over one's actions?

 

[Muffled]

is not missrespect by the name of freedom to the others faith ?


is not facture to increase the terrorism and extremism agaisnt the west people , especialy americans around the world ?

note :
this is not justify for the over reaction done by some muslims protestors , or the murderer of US ambassodor in Libya .

Next you will probably see a historical treatise sayiing that Mohammed never existed. After all it is likely that has been done with Jesus.

It appears that some Chistian extremists want to make Islam look bad and there are oh so many willing to accomodate.

PS: I had to abstain from voting because the poll didn't make much sense.

 

[Muffled]

Remove it from the Koran.

Yes they do, but in Hindu Majority countries, not in the West.

That seems to be true for Islam in America also but in England there has been violence by Muslims. I wonder why? Is it because they would be arrested and put in jail here but can get away with it in their own countries?

In India, Hindu's are a majority and the government is pro-Hindu so they may feel they can get away with it, sort of the way blacks could be attacked in the south of the USA because Jim Crow laws protected the assailants.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

That seems to be true for Islam in America also but in England there has been violence by Muslims. I wonder why? Is it because they would be arrested and put in jail here but can get away with it in their own countries?

In India, Hindu's are a majority and the government is pro-Hindu so they may feel they can get away with it, sort of the way blacks could be attacked in the south of the USA because Jim Crow laws protected the assailants.

off the topic, i dont know why people refer to the Indian Government as Pro-Hindu, it is a secular government, The so called Hindu Fanatics usually are against the Governments appease of the minority groups.

 

[Godobeyer]

Never underestimate human ignorance. Personally, there was a time when I honestly believed that the LDS church owned Pepsi, and that was why the no-caffeine rule made an exception for soda.

they were christians , that's does not justification , even they were muslims , the wrong is wrong .

some news tells , that actess set a case in tribunal against the filmmaker , she claim that she fooled .
and she set another case in tribunal against youtube for posting parts of film .

i would like to see the feeling of the christians or jews if the muslim decide to make a film about Jesus or Moses (pbut) to represent the islamic view about them (pbut) .

Yes, but there's no clear line separating them. Which is my point.

do you want my understanding ,(without refering to dic )
-critic :is discuss something with respect and evidences

-mockery : is kind of offend criticing , with no respect , and maybe with no evidence or exagerate in it's evidences .

No, that's the law.

You can't arrest someone for an opinion in this country. Also, the First Amendment in no way guarantees (or even implies) freedom from social consequences - that would be stupid. You're conflating popularity with prosecution.

ok , but that's definitly will provoke the whole americans , and maybe he/she would face big problems (insulting ) in the street or in job ...etc

honesly as i see most of west leave the christianity ,that's why they don't care about offending religions .

I said prohibition would be illegal. I didn't say that it wouldn't happen, but it would be illegal.

can you reexplain this ?
but it's would be illlegal to make that movie or stop them ?


HMmmmmmmm, then there is not a illimite freedom of speech ,espcialy when it's be provocation !!! ?

No, I'm not. The First Amendment protects EVERY opinion. That's why the KKK still gets rally permits.

for my information, KKK is group racist against the jews and black...?
i am realy don't know , why the US permit to them .
why ? there is not a law prohibit the racism in US ? is calls for racism is considerate a freedom of speech ?!!!

btw
we have recently world world books festival in Algeries , the goverment ban about 300 title (book) , because they supporting the terrorism or racism .

Algeria bans 300 book titles deemed in praise of terrorism - Books - Ahram Online

 

[Godobeyer]

asked you before, and you did not answer. Will you answer now? Do you want the US to pass a new law against "offending other belief-systems"TE]

i had been asked this question before in the begining of this thread , and my answser was "YES"

So you want every person to be protected from lying and mockery. After all, I have my own personal religion. You want me to have the power to arrest you if you lie about me or mock me?

So you want every person to be protected from lying and mockery. After all, I have my own personal religion. You want me to have the power to arrest you if you lie about me or mock me?[Quote:]
in serieus situtions , there is a lie take to jail , and there is a lie made a crime or made problem ....etc just imagine .
and also mockery , to mock for you wife (girlfriend ) that's will make problem ,or to mock to someone had big masculse or karaté (stronger) it's just like a suicide or allow to be hitting in ....etc

If not, can you name which religions would be protected and which ones would not be protected?

all religions should protected from lieing and mockery , protected does not mean not debate or discuss .

This is why I'm so happy to see middle-eastern Muslims on this board. They really don't seem to even understand freedom of speech in the West. They can't even imagine it.

i did not compare in all the issues ,i am talking about just in politics (freedom of speech )
i am from Algeria , i assume we have freedom of speech exactly or more than US , we had the right to talk in any issue in populic areas , insulting/glory the president the goverment , glory/insult the west , glory/insult AlQeada and Bin laden and Sadam ....etc
also as i see in TV , Tunisia and Egypt becomes the same as Algeria .

we had more than 70 politic parties in Algeria, in US you have just 2 politic party (democratic and populic ) !!!!
in Algeria we respect all the religion , in US you don't allow to a muslims to marry more than 1 wife
then where is the freedom of religions ?

just i have some notes about the freedom in general .

the USA allowed homosex, and ban polgramy (two , three , four ) wifes ?

YES, YES, YES... such activities would absolutely be allowed in the US. I could proclaim that Bin Laden was the greatest hero of all time, and the government couldn't do anything to me, not legally. They could not arrest me. I could also call Barak Obama an idiot. A retarded fool. The government could not arrest me.

we also have this freedom , but very problably no one will arrest you ,if you insult/glory bin laden
there is exceptions of course, if someone burn the flag, or calling for terrorist or racism ,or spy ,that certainly will punished .

Of course, if I supported Bin Laden too loudly, the government would probably start to secretly watch me. That's because al Queda is an enemy of the state, and I might look like a threat to the government, but they would have to find some other reason to arrest me. They couldn't arrest me for praising Bin Laden.

This is my understanding of things. I welcome anyone else to correct me if I've got it wrong.



YES!!! ABSOLUTELY! It's freedom of speech!

I am still amazed when Muslims ask such questions. Some of you guys really don't have any freedom of speech at all, do you.

Yes. One could certainly make such a film in the US without being arrested. We value freedom of speech and we work to protect it, even when we don't like the things which other people say.

sounds good that you have all this freedom
i remember an event , about HizbAllah , when he changed 4 or2 israeli soldiers body exchange by prison 30 years Samir Alkintar , some congress memebers request to shut the Alhurra because it's cares about HizbAllah .
in spite that CNN cares about that event ,and take the same live pictures , as Aljazeera and all the channels of the world do !!!
which mean there is controled (freedom of speech ) in the media in USA .

Al-Hurra television: history and background

the congress don't allow to Allhurra, (because it's spread the hate !!!!) and let the other channels to cover !!!!

then how about the banned of Almanar (the TV channel of HizbAllah) in the western satellites ,it's not against the freedom of speech ?!!!

Al-Manar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

then how about the freedom to say that "there is no holocaust"?

Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hmmm, then, where is the freedom of speech in this three issues ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Remove it from the Koran.

because it's you feel , it's hurt you , your request is rejected
choose other one .

can i ask you question , what you called "disbelieve "in hindu ?
what ever the word , just remove it

Yes they do, but in Hindu Majority countries, not in the West.

t
ah , you make voilenece protest at home ?
well done , bravo

 

[Godobeyer]

I don't label people; it's not my place to do so.

I respect your choose
but honesly , how you make a distinction between a muslim or non-muslims ?
or all we are the same for you ?

 

[beenie]

I respect your choose
but honesly , how you make a distinction between a muslim or non-muslims ?
or all we are the same for you ?

They're Muslims or Non-Muslims if I'm referring to a difference in belief between Muslims and "everybody else" (believing in Prophet Muhammad, Ramadan, etc.). Otherwise, if they're Christian, then I call them "Christian", or "Jewish", or "Buddhist", "Hindu", "Pantheist", "Pagan", "Agnostic", "Atheist", etc., etc.

I have no desire to call them "kaffir".

Most importantly, I call them "human beings", because in my eyes, we are all equal.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

in serieus situtions , there is a lie take to jail , and there is a lie made a crime or made problem ....etc just imagine .
and also mockery , to mock for you wife (girlfriend ) that's will make problem ,or to mock to someone had big masculse or karaté (stronger) it's just like a suicide or allow to be hitting in ....etc

I'm sorry but I'm just having too much trouble understanding you. I admire you for trying to discuss these things in English, and I'm happy to see Middle Eastern Muslims coming to English bulletin boards, but I think you may need a little more work with English. I used to be an ESL teacher. Maybe I can suggest some ways for you to get more practice.

all religions should protected from lieing and mockery , protected does not mean not debate or discuss .

I disagree. It's just a personal opinions whether someone is lying or mocking vs. debating in good faith.

in Algeria we respect all the religion , in US you don't allow to a muslims to marry more than 1 wife then where is the freedom of religions ?

Do you allow people to use drugs like opium if opium-use is a part of a religious practice?

the USA allowed homosex, and ban polgramy (two , three , four ) wifes ?

Yes, and I think the US is stupid to do so. I think that if people want to have multiple spouses, then the government should keep its nose out of it.

But it's the law. All I can do is argue against it and maybe try to change it.

in spite that CNN cares about that event ,and take the same live pictures , as Aljazeera and all the channels of the world do !!!
which mean there is controled (freedom of speech ) in the media in USA .

It's not controlled by law. It's controlled by politics, though. If CNN runs a story which angers the White House, then the White House might not allow CNN to speak to high officials anymore.

the congress don't allow to Allhurra, (because it's spread the hate !!!!) and let the other channels to cover !!!!

then how about the banned of Almanar (the TV channel of HizbAllah) in the western satellites ,it's not against the freedom of speech ?!!!

I'm sorry. I just can't follow your question.

then how about the freedom to say that "there is no holocaust"?

Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hmmm, then, where is the freedom of speech in this three issues ?

I agree with you about the Holocaust-denial laws in Europe. If they tried to pass such a law in the US, I would be on the front lines, in the streets, protesting. So would most every other American.

 

[Riverwolf]

because it's you feel , it's hurt you , your request is rejected
choose other one .

can i ask you question , what you called "disbelieve "in hindu ?
what ever the word , just remove it

No problem; I never had that concept to begin with.