Catholic church and condoms

[doppelganger]

The main effect of the Church's hardline stance seems to be undermining the moral authority of the bishops.

Exactly. It just makes a mockery of the good stuff they do have to teach. They can't fight the realities of planet-wide biological, technological, cultural and economic change. And they look foolish and dangerous trying to do so.

 

[Quiddity]

Straw man. Read the OP. They are pushing a policy.

*Shrug*...I don't see it.

If it's backwards in terms of achieving goals like public health, reducing abortion, reducing overpopulation, poverty, STDs, then calling it archaic and backwards has EVERYTHING to do with arguing against it.

Or, you can just say what you just said without the name calling? Maybe that's hard to do for some people...I don't know.​

 

[doppelganger]

And even if we ignore all the other issues and just focus on what many Roman Catholics consider the moral issue of our age - abortion - opposing safe sex education and making condoms less readily available is a bad, bad idea. The number one correlate by far with abortion rates is safe sex education and availability of condoms.

If the Church wants abstinence it should get out there and make its moral/religious/rational pitch for abstinence. And at the end say, "And if you disagree or can't help yourself, please use one of these . . ."

 

[Autodidact]

Giving an alternative view is "meddling in matters of government and public policy" ?

How is calling it archaic and backwards (not saying you did) serve to argue against it exactly?

I think this has been said in this thread several times: You are entitled to your alternative view, to hold it, to advocate it and to live by it. You are not entitled to ask anyone else to do so. That's the meddling part. Unless you agree that other people should be able to require you to abide by their religious beliefs?

Well, I guess if you don't mind being archaic and backwards, then that particular argument wouldn't be effective with you. Some people do.

 

[Autodidact]

Victor: When they seek to influence government policy, in order to make other people abide by their religious strictures, that is inappropriate. If they're trying to advocate for the government to make condoms more expensive, or whatever, that's what they're doing. If they succeed, it will contribute to increased STDs and, of course, increased abortions. I don't know why that doesn't bother them.

 

[rheff78]

Catholic For a Free Choice reports the following survey results:

• Only 22% of Catholics agree that abortion should be illegal.
• 87% of Catholics support abortion in case of serious threat to a woman's health.
• 79% of Catholics support abortion in cases of rape.
• 58% of Catholics believe you can be a good Catholic without following the bishops' teaching on abortion.
• 75% believe you can be a good Catholic without following the bishops' teaching on birth control.
• Catholic women have abortions at the same rate as women in the general population.
• 96% of sexually active Catholic women above the age of 18 have used a modern method of contraception.
• Less than 2% of sexually active Catholic women use church-approved family planning methods.
• 88% of Catholics are in favor of sex education in the public schools.
• 83% of Catholics believe birth control information should be available to teenagers.
• 58% of Catholics believe that birth control should be available to 14- to 16-year-olds, even if their parents don't approve.
• 93% of Catholics support the use of condoms to prevent HIV and other STDs.
• Only 7% of Catholics believe that the views of the bishops are "very important" in deciding who to vote for.
• 74% of Catholics believe they have no religious obligation to vote against candidates who support legal abortion.

The main effect of the Church's hardline stance seems to be undermining the moral authority of the bishops.

If these figures are correct then most of these people surveyed should not consider themselves Catholic.

 

[doppelganger]

If these figures are correct then most of these people surveyed should not consider themselves Catholic.

Maybe you shouldn't.

 

[rheff78]

The fact remains that the people in that survey are going against Doctrine, hence they should not consider themselves Catholic.

 

[doppelganger]

The fact remains that the people in that survey are going against Doctrine, hence they should not consider themselves Catholic.

Perhaps those who trumpet "Doctrine" over the real experience of most people should not consider themselves "Catholic".

 

[Autodidact]

If these figures are correct then most of these people surveyed should not consider themselves Catholic.

And the number of Catholics in the world is reduced by around 80%.
It's wild. According to the Muslims, there are no True Muslims. According to rheff, there are few True Catholics. According to the Christians, there are very few True Christians. So what the heck are all these billions of people? They sure as heck aren't atheists.

I basically accept anyone who doesn't believe in God as an atheist, regardless of whether they're a jerk or not. Theists seem to use a different accounting method.

 

[Autodidact]

Hey, here's an idea. Since 80% of the world's "Catholics" aren't really Catholic, how about if the Church stops taking their money? That sounds fair to me.

 

[rheff78]

No, that's not the problem. Unfortunately alot of catholics aren't sure of what the Church teaches. It's a problem for sure. But back to the OP my point remains, I think the Church has a right to say what they think, especially in such a predominately Catholic nation as Ireland.

 

[doppelganger]

No, that's not the problem. Unfortunately alot of catholics aren't sure of what the Church teaches. It's a problem for sure. But back to the OP my point remains, I think the Church has a right to say what they think, especially in such a predominately Catholic nation as Ireland.

Sure. And anyone else has the right to note that it is archaic, backwards and dangerous. What's the problem?

 

[rheff78]

I don't see a problem. You're titled to your opinion and you voice, just as much as the Church. So.......what were we talking about?

 

[doppelganger]

I don't see a problem. You're titled to your opinion and you voice, just as much as the Church. So.......what were we talking about?

Same thing we started with . . . the merits of this article: Retro :: The Clockwork Chartophylax

 

[Autodidact]

No, that's not the problem. Unfortunately alot of catholics aren't sure of what the Church teaches. It's a problem for sure. But back to the OP my point remains, I think the Church has a right to say what they think, especially in such a predominately Catholic nation as Ireland.

Keep repeating myself. Of course everyone has a right to say what they think. The point is, they don't have a right to pass laws to control other people's behavior. And THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING as saying what they think. I think that the young Elizabeth Taylor was one of the most beautiful women who has ever lived. I have the right to say so. I do not have the right to pass legislation mandating that you agree with me. I may legally have the right to do so, but it would not be right or reasonable.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor: When they seek to influence government policy, in order to make other people abide by their religious strictures, that is inappropriate. If they're trying to advocate for the government to make condoms more expensive, or whatever, that's what they're doing. If they succeed, it will contribute to increased STDs and, of course, increased abortions. I don't know why that doesn't bother them.

Just look at my signature; that should say it all. I read the article and just read that the Catholic Bishops objected to it. I'm not sure where them voicing there opinions was pushing policy.

 

[Autodidact]

Your signature is wrong.
If a Jew keeps Kosher, that's her business. If she speaks out about the importance of following G-d's commandments by keeping kosher, that's expressing her opinion. If she tries to pass a law requiring you to keep kosher, that's wrong.

If I don't believe in God, that's my business. If I speak out and express my opinion, that's legitimate. If I try to pass a law prohibiting you from praying, that's wrong.

If a Catholic believes that birth control is wrong, that's their perfect right. If they speak out about how and why it's wrong, that's their prerogative. If they try to pass a law prohibiting it, that's wrong.

Get it?

 

[rheff78]

Your signature is wrong.
If a Jew keeps Kosher, that's her business. If she speaks out about the importance of following G-d's commandments by keeping kosher, that's expressing her opinion. If she tries to pass a law requiring you to keep kosher, that's wrong.

If I don't believe in God, that's my business. If I speak out and express my opinion, that's legitimate. If I try to pass a law prohibiting you from praying, that's wrong.

If a Catholic believes that birth control is wrong, that's their perfect right. If they speak out about how and why it's wrong, that's their prerogative. If they try to pass a law prohibiting it, that's wrong.

Get it?

Not really. It's a republic. They can try to get any law that want passed. Just like in the states. A petition can be signed presented and voted upon. It's their LEGAL right to do so. Whether it passes or not is entirely different.

 

[Quiddity]

Your signature is wrong.
If a Jew keeps Kosher, that's her business. If she speaks out about the importance of following G-d's commandments by keeping kosher, that's expressing her opinion. If she tries to pass a law requiring you to keep kosher, that's wrong.

If I don't believe in God, that's my business. If I speak out and express my opinion, that's legitimate. If I try to pass a law prohibiting you from praying, that's wrong.

If a Catholic believes that birth control is wrong, that's their perfect right. If they speak out about how and why it's wrong, that's their prerogative. If they try to pass a law prohibiting it, that's wrong.

Get it?

Loud and clear.

Now let me expound on my signature if I may. When I say "beliefs" I'm not just talking about the supernatural rituals and all those things you probably call myths (I wouldn't impose those on you). I'm talking about the totality of my morality. Like: Rape, murder, stealing, and a number of other things that hopefully you agree with me on.

Same answer?