"Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Attract Demons"

[ecco]

Since I taught political science for about 25 years, yes.

And do they not contribute to said community?

I never said nor implied otherwise.

I do not justify what they do.

Thanks for your opinion.

You seem conflicted. You think tax exempts contribute to the community and also feel that, at least some entities, game the system. In that case, it would be better if there was no system to game and let tax money contribute to the community.

 

[ecco]

What are you talking about? Of course atheists can get possessed, and it's not just by demons but by anything really.

So, of course, you can show an example of an atheist getting possesed.

Maybe you should be more respectful and not say "BS" to other people's beliefs, not that I would term any of the phenomena I believe in supernatural anyways.

If you believe in Satans and demons and possessions, you believe in supernatural woo. You can't change language just to suit yourself or your beliefs.

Also Satan doesn't want to fool you or anyone. Satan doesn't "do" things per se, at least not in an active sense. Satan is an unthinking cosmic force not some dude with a pitchfork. It's something inside of all of us that we tap into and that animates all of reality, It's not a god in the western sense of the word, at least not the Satan I believe in.

As I said, you choose to believe in supernatural woo.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Okay. I'll settle for "like" demons. But only when they're committing sin.

Spoken like a true Catholic. Keep defending them instead of calling for swift and complete action. As long as they only commit their sins on rare occasions just let them continue to do their other church duties as if nothing happened. Disgusting !!! Get rid of them. People should be picketing in front of churches day and night until the problem is completely solved.

 

[metis]

You seem conflicted. You think tax exempts contribute to the community and also feel that, at least some entities, game the system. In that case, it would be better if there was no system to game and let tax money contribute to the community.

Then let us agree that we disagree.

 

[Kapalika]

So, of course, you can show an example of an atheist getting possesed.

If you believe in Satans and demons and possessions, you believe in supernatural woo. You can't change language just to suit yourself or your beliefs.

As I said, you choose to believe in supernatural woo.

So are you saying that English encapsulates all types of beliefs, even those that originate in much more precise and ancient langues such as Sanskrit?

I don't believe in the supernatural. The actual term for what I believe is probably closer to "preternatural" as I see no reason why any phenomena would be in direct violation with natural laws. In fact you can't accurately call me an atheist or theist, since likewise those are also two inadequate categories. Pantheist maybe, or transthiest. But not theist or supernaturalist.

Even historically there wasn't just the concept of natural and supernatural, and the term preternatural was kind of a halfway word for something that didn't override / contradict nature.

That aside, there isn't a proper English word for my position on the matter.

Those two positions are not in conflict with either Hinduism or Satanism. There is a long history of Hinduism having atheistic and realism sects and everything in between that and hard theism and idealism, and Satanism has it's own atheistic and symbolic sects that incorporate magic as at the very least psychodrama if not something suggested to influence events in a natural way yet beyond our current understanding.

So no, you're trying to paint my beliefs to suit your language, when my beliefs are not rooted in the culture of the language we are using.

In the case of possession, we could say that many cases (such as an atheist being possessed) is a case of obsession or being taken over by part of their own psyche. I mentioned thoughtforms... this is something that exists because the mind supports it's existence. It doesn't exist on it's own but by the belief in it. A person may not realize it's semi-autonomous state but the weird thing about the brain is that it's not some discrete, clean cut machine. It's messy and complicated, and part of someone's impulses or personality can over take a person's life.

An example is the Jungian Shadow. We could also think of the term "someone's bad side" to give examples of parts of our personality or psyche. When one slice of our personality or psyche dominates our mind or life, we can say we are possessed by it as it's grown to act as if it is something entirely onto it's own.

That's an example of one type of possession and describes what many people falsely attribute to spirits entering the body. I think spirits can enter the body, but it's not nearly as easy or common as people tend to think it is and it usually doesn't happen without trying to make it happen.

 

[ecco]

So are you saying that English encapsulates all types of beliefs,
I don't believe in the supernatural. The actual term for what I believe is probably closer to "preternatural" as I see no reason why any phenomena would be in direct violation with natural laws.
Even historically there wasn't just the concept of natural and supernatural,
That aside, there isn't a proper English word for my position on the matter.
So no, you're trying to paint my beliefs to suit your language, when my beliefs are not rooted in the culture of the language we are using.

The bottom line is that this forum is in English, so we use English words and commonly accepted English word usage.

If you believe in demon possession, you believe in the supernatural. If you believe in god(s), you believe in the supernatural.

If you want to have discussions in Sanscrit, then feel free to find a website that supports that.


ecco: previously...
So, of course, you can show an example of an atheist getting possessed.

In the case of possession, we could say that many cases (such as an atheist being possessed) is a case of obsession or being taken over by part of their own psyche. I mentioned thoughtforms...
That's an example of one type of possession and describes what many people falsely attribute to spirits entering the body. I think spirits can enter the body, but it's not nearly as easy or common as people tend to think it is and it usually doesn't happen without trying to make it happen.

That's all well and good, but that is not the type of demon possession that we were discussing. You have not been able to point to any instances of atheists being possessed by your supernatural/preternatural demons. The reason that you cannot find any instances of atheists being possessed by demons is that we don't believe in any superstitions.

 

[Kapalika]

The bottom line is that this forum is in English, so we use English words and commonly accepted English word usage.

If you want to have discussions in Sanscrit, then feel free to find a website that supports that.

Well you obviously didn't get my point so I should spell it out for you, that my concept of these things are not Western, they are Hindu. I even used the best English words, such as pantheist and preternatural. Did you just ignore those?

Also, we use Sanskrit words here all the time... brahman, atman, hell my name Kapalika is Sanskrit. It's accepted practice to refer to certain concepts by their native term not just here but academically. Go look in the Hindu DIR or read any book on a Hindu topic in English and it will have the Sanskrit terms all throughout. Due to cultural differences the terms don't always translate over easily.

Technically the type of spirits I believe in are called Asuras and Devas. As far as supernaturalism I'm not sure we really have a word equal to it. Normally the default Hindu position is idealism but Kashmir Shaivism (my sect) holds onto a kind of "concrete monism" view of the world and so it's realism. Physical laws and spiritual events are not a duality or opposed to each other in this view, and so not in conflict.

If you believe in god(s), you believe in the supernatural.

So you don't believe pantheism or transtheism exists? Those positions just don't exist?

I bet it would throw you for a loop to know that Yoga (as in the orthodox school of Hindu philosophy) believes in deities as emergent products of Maya but not real in of themselves. Is that atheism? Theism?

That's all well and good, but that is not the type of demon possession that we were discussing. You have not been able to point to any instances of atheists being possessed by your supernatural/preternatural demons.

It's not that I've "not been able to" point to the type of possession you talk about. I know that even if I did find an example you would shoot it down so why bother?

If you are not convinced by any cases of possession at all why waste both our time by finding one with an atheist specifically? It shouldn't matter if someone is an atheist or theist as to proof. Finding an atheist being possessed wouldn't make it any more credible than finding a theist who was possessed.

I could though tell of you atheists being possessed that I know, and even realized later what happened. But you would claim that either then they were not really atheists or that my accounts are anecdotal.

Also just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they don't believe in the supernatural, since the existence of gods and the existence of spirits or even supernatural phenomena in general are two separate questions.

 

[ecco]

Technically the type of spirits I believe in are called Asuras and Devas. As far as supernaturalism I'm not sure we really have a word equal to it. Normally the default Hindu position is idealism but Kashmir Shaivism (my sect) holds onto a kind of "concrete monism" view of the world and so it's realism. Physical laws and spiritual events are not a duality or opposed to each other in this view, and so not in conflict.

As I said, you have beliefs in the supernatural. If it makes you more comfortable, for some reasons, to use synonyms like praeternatural, fine. That in no way changes anything.

So you don't believe pantheism or transtheism exists? Those positions just don't exist?

That's two versions of the same question, isn't it?
What does it mean to say pantheism exists?
What does it mean to say transtheism exists?
Positions exist on many things. Beliefs exist on many things. Positions and beliefs do not affect reality.

I bet it would throw you for a loop to know that Yoga (as in the orthodox school of Hindu philosophy) believes in deities as emergent products of Maya but not real in of themselves.

You just lost a bet. To me, that falls into the category of: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" to quote Rhett Butler.

Is that atheism? Theism?

If it's belief in deities, it's not atheism.

It's not that I've "not been able to" point to the type of possession you talk about. I know that even if I did find an example you would shoot it down so why bother?

That's an often used dodge. You make claims and then don't/can't support them. Don't you have anything more original?

If you are not convinced by any cases of possession at all why waste both our time by finding one with an atheist specifically? It shouldn't matter if someone is an atheist or theist as to proof. Finding an atheist being possessed wouldn't make it any more credible than finding a theist who was possessed.

Nonsense. People who believe in gods and demons believe they can get possessed. People who believe in gods and demons believe others can get possessed.

Atheists don't get possessed. Is that because demons just don't bother with atheists for some reason? Or is it that there is no such thing as demons and only people who believe in superstitious nonsense can convince themselves that they or others are possessed?

I could though tell of you atheists being possessed that I know, and even realized later what happened. But you would claim that either then they were not really atheists or that my accounts are anecdotal.

Probably both.

If I felt I was getting possessed I would get psychiatric counseling, I would not go running to an "exorcist". That's what I would expect any rational person would do.

Also just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they don't believe in the supernatural, since the existence of gods and the existence of spirits or even supernatural phenomena in general are two separate questions.

They are extremely closely related. One cannot believe in god(s) if one does not believe in anything supernatural. If one believes in god(s), one probably has other supernatural beliefs.

Show me I'm wrong. Poll the atheists on RF and see how many believe in anything supernatural.