Cessation of Suffering and Rebirth...Why?

[crossfire]

<...> However, an attachment to Nibbana is antithesis to the prior statement because Nibanna is non-existence. Wanting it is not got going to create an attachment to it because there's nothing to attach onto.

Nibanna is not non-existence, it is untraceable.
Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile

"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) [11] is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now. [12]​

 

[Runewolf1973]

To say that one must abandon the desire for the cessation of suffering is to invalidate the noble eightfold path, and everything Buddha taught about it. This is invalidating the very heart of Buddha's teachings.

Yes. And we must forget everything we were taught, forget the path, forget the teachings, but just DO without doing. You don't become the Buddha by following a certain path to achieve a certain goal or desire, that path is another illusion of which there are many other paths. You just BE the Buddha.

That is how I see it anyway. I could be wrong.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Whether Nibanna is non-existence or it is untraceable, this indicates that everything is an illusion or the only reality is that Nibanna. This includes that suffering which one desires the cessation of, or that path or that teaching...anything and everything is/was an illusion. There should be no wanting it because there is no "it" to want.

 

[von bek]

Whether Nibanna is non-existence or it is untraceable, this indicates that everything is an illusion or the only reality is that Nibanna. This includes that suffering which one desires the cessation of, or that path or that teaching...anything and everything is/was an illusion. There should be no wanting it because there is no "it" to want.

What does the word illusion mean to you? And by the way, do you identify as a Buddhist?

 

[Sees]

I don't think it means things are all illusion, but judgments and bias of ordinary perception is illusion. I think it is why awakening is mentioned often and characterizes the entire tradition. Kind of like when you take a sip of a glass you think has a different drink then it does, taste like ****....even though it tastes great when you just taste it without preconceptions - apply to all of life and the Noble Truths.

 

[crossfire]

Whether Nibanna is non-existence or it is untraceable, this indicates that everything is an illusion or the only reality is that Nibanna. This includes that suffering which one desires the cessation of, or that path or that teaching...anything and everything is/was an illusion. There should be no wanting it because there is no "it" to want.

This would be "system-grasping," which leads to suffering. This thread is also bordering on DIR violation of no debate in DIR.

Kaccaayanagotto Sutta: Kaccaayana

[At Saavatthii the Ven. Kaccaayana asked the Blessed One:] "'Right view,[1] right view,' it is said, Lord. In what way, Lord, is there right view?'

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence[2] or to non-existence.[3] But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is,[4] 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, grasps after systems and is imprisoned by dogmas.[5] But he[6] does not go along with that system-grasping, that mental obstinacy and dogmatic bias, does not grasp at it, does not affirm: 'This is my self.'[7] He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha[8] that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. This, Kaccaayana, is what constitutes right view.

"'Everything exists,'[9] this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata[10] teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations... [as SN 12.10]... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering. But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance there comes the cessation of the formations, from the cessation of the formations comes the cessation of consciousness... So there comes about the complete cessation of this entire mass of suffering."​

 

[Runewolf1973]

What does the word illusion mean to you? And by the way, do you identify as a Buddhist?

What word? What is a Buddhist? These are all things conceived of by the mind. That is the illusion. I identify with no such thing.

 

[Runewolf1973]

This would be "system-grasping," which leads to suffering. This thread is also bordering on DIR violation of no debate in DIR.

Kaccaayanagotto Sutta: Kaccaayana

[At Saavatthii the Ven. Kaccaayana asked the Blessed One:] "'Right view,[1] right view,' it is said, Lord. In what way, Lord, is there right view?'

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence[2] or to non-existence.[3] But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is,[4] 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, grasps after systems and is imprisoned by dogmas.[5] But he[6] does not go along with that system-grasping, that mental obstinacy and dogmatic bias, does not grasp at it, does not affirm: 'This is my self.'[7] He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha[8] that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. This, Kaccaayana, is what constitutes right view.

"'Everything exists,'[9] this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata[10] teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations... [as SN 12.10]... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering. But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance there comes the cessation of the formations, from the cessation of the formations comes the cessation of consciousness... So there comes about the complete cessation of this entire mass of suffering."​

If this thread is in violation, could you please move it to another section? I don't mean to violate.

BTW... What is there to grasp at?

 

[crossfire]

If this thread is in violation, could you please move it to another section? I don't mean to violate.

You might want to start another thread in the debate section, if you wish to debate.

BTW... What is there to grasp at?

This system you proposed:

Whether Nibanna is non-existence or it is untraceable, this indicates that everything is an illusion or the only reality is that Nibanna. This includes that suffering which one desires the cessation of, or that path or that teaching...anything and everything is/was an illusion. There should be no wanting it because there is no "it" to want.

See the Kaccaayanagotto Sutta posted above.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You might want to start another thread in the debate section, if you wish to debate.


This system you proposed:



See the Kaccaayanagotto Sutta posted above.

I don't see the need for a system, nor the need to grasp for one, just Be the Buddha. I guess I have a different way of understanding or approaching of the same thing. If this poses a problem, which it seems to, I will move it elsewhere.


---

 

[von bek]

What word? What is a Buddhist? These are all things conceived of by the mind. That is the illusion. I identify with no such thing.

This is a Buddhism DIR...

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

So if the end result of the Buddhist path is the cessation of suffering and rebirth,

Suffering only ends upon paranirvana, or rather, the things that cause suffering. Nirvana means, roughly, "to blow out", or "to cool". It's not that the things that cause suffering disappear, but that our mind is refined to such a point where those things no longer cause us suffering.

does that not amount to just another desire or craving of sorts?

It can be. The Zen masters constantly made their disciples aware of the fact that one should not desire for nirvana, because if one desires nirvana, the very goal becomes a stumbling block.

What happens if one does not desire the cessation of suffering or the cessation of the rebirth cycle?

It depends. Do you desire to continue in being reborn? If so, there's no need to continue. However, if there's no desire, then you're part of the way there.

Oneness with Brahman the way I see it,

Not a Buddhist concept.

s to simply do what nature does and that means to continually change, transform...to basically do what energy or matter does.

Transformation is part of the path. All phenomenon are constantly changing. The point, I think, is to make sure we're headed in the right direction.

Rather than desire the release from this cyclic, transformative nature of existence, should we not simply accept our place in this existence and "roll with the tide" so to speak?

One could certainly choose that path, but it won't end the passions and poisons. When one lives the holy life, nirvana is the natural outcome.

Through reincarnation or rebirth I have no desire to achieve some higher enlightened state. All is Brahman.

And it's fine if this is you're choice, but know that this isn't the Buddhist path.

The way I see it, there is no higher enlightened state.

Again, that's fine, it's just not Buddhist teaching.

 

[crossfire]

I don't see the need for a system, nor the need to grasp for one, just Be the Buddha. I guess I have a different way of understanding or approaching of the same thing. If this poses a problem, which it seems to, I will move it elsewhere.


---

That would be a good idea. Coming into the Buddhism DIR and starting a thread challenging the Four Noble Truths, followed by brahman proselytizing, followed by gutting the Noble Eightfold Path is prolly not a good idea.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That would be a good idea. Coming into the Buddhism DIR and starting a thread challenging the Four Noble Truths, followed by brahman proselytizing, followed by gutting the Noble Eightfold Path is prolly not a good idea.

I don't think that was ever Runewolf's intent here. Im perceiving this as addressing the questions at hand in light that our own nature is empty. The structure by which Buddhism is identified is in itself empty so it's duration only applies as long as its received.

I suppose it's like throwing out Buddha's baby with the bathwater as well in light that it's received.

 

[crossfire]

I don't think that was ever Runewolf's intent here.

Agreed.

 

[Runewolf1973]

This is a Buddhism DIR...

If All is One, then we are All Buddhists are we not? Even if we realize that fact or not.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I don't think that was ever Runewolf's intent here. Im perceiving this as addressing the questions at hand in light that our own nature is empty. The structure by which Buddhism is identified is in itself empty so it's duration only applies as long as its received.

I suppose it's like throwing out Buddha's baby with the bathwater as well in light that it's received.

Yes, thank you.

 

[crossfire]

If All is One, then we are All Buddhists are we not? Even if we realize that fact or not.

Buddhism in not monism. It's not-two, which is not the same as "all is one."

 

[Runewolf1973]

Buddhism in not monism. It's not-two, which is not the same as "all is one."

I think you understand what I meant though. If one could identify with everything and nothing at the same time, that would describe me. Part of everything...part of no-thing.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I know it sounds harsh and it may be percieved as going against the path or the teachings of Buddha, but consider this...

In order for one to become the Buddha, one must first abandon the Buddha.