Challenge to tariqkhwaja (the Qadiani)

[Ilias Ahmad]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

This is an open challenge to tariqkhwaja and all Qadianis to prove that Mirza Qadiani is a true prophet of Allah.

Alhamdulillah, I am a Sunni Muslim, and have firm and absolute faith that Hazrat Shah-e-Madinah, Muhammad Mustafa (sallallahu alaihi wa salam), is the last and final prophet in every sense of the word, and that anyone who claims to be a prophet after him is a liar and an unbeliever.

One rather simple argument for this might be exploration of a similar use of the word Khaatam. For example, ask any Arabic scholar what is the meaning of:
1. Khaatam-ash-Shuara'a (Last of the poets)
2. Khaatam-al-Auliya (Last of the gaurdians)
3. Khaatam-al-Mua'alimeen (Last of the teachers)

The word khatam can have two different connotations, literal and allegorical. In the examples which you have given, the word khatam is clearly carrying an allegorical usage.

However, I can give example from the Holy Qur'an where word khatam is used and must be understood in only the literal sense. For example Allah Taala says in Holy Qur'an Khatama Allahu 'ala quloobihim (2:7) which means "Allah has placed a seal upon their hearts". What does this mean except that Allah has closed the hearts of the unbelievers to accepting His guidance! (just like Allah has closed the chain of prophets through Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam))

Now you are asking for an Arabic scholar to define what is meaning of khatam. Why not refer to an actually Arabic lexicon?

The closing verses of Qur'anic Surahs are referred to as Khawatim. Khatim-ul-Qawm Akhirhuum means "The last man in the tribe." Refer to Lisan-ul-'Arab, Qamus and Aqrab-ul-Muwarid (Finality of Prophethood by Sayyid Abu'l 'Ala Maudoodi)

We Ahlus Sunnat wa'l Jamaat believe that prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has most knowledge about the meaning of the Holy Qur'an, and when we try to interpret Holy Qur'an we must always refer back to his ahadeeth. With regard to the expression khatama annabiyeen Rasoolullah (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) said wa ana khatama annabiyeena, la nabiyya ba'dee (sunan at-tirmidhi) which means "and I am khatama annabiyeen, there is no prophet after me". Thus Rasoolullah (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has made his own tafseer of the verse, why are you Qadianis still in doubt regarding it?​

 

[Popeyesays]

So you call him no true muslim, yet you want to debate him in the Same Faith arena?

Surely, it is for God to decide who is a believer and who is not.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Ilias Ahmad]

Now let us examine whether Dajjal-o-Kazzab Mirza Qadiani was a true prophet of Allah or not. Hazrat Shah-e-Madinah (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) said that before the Hour there will come out of his ummah thirty kadhdhabs and dajjals, each of them claiming to be a prophet. No doubt Mirza Qadiani, along with Mirza Hussain Ali ("bahaullah"), Rashad Khalifa, and many others are included in this list of false prophets/messengers.

During the lifetime of Mirza Qadiani, many pious 'ulama from Hindustan arose to expose him and defend the real beliefs of Ahlus Sunnat wa'l Jamaat like Hazrat Maulvi Sanaullah Amritsari (rahmatullah alaih). Mirza Qadiani challenged him to mubahala (prayer contest) and wrote in his advertisement:

[SIZE=-1]"If I am such a liar and fabricator, as you remember me in your paper, then I will die in your lifetime, because I know that a liar and corrupt does not have a long life and at last he dies as a failure within the lifetime of his fierce opponents with great humiliation and discontentment...If I am not a liar and fabricator and am honored by the addresses of God and am the promised messiah, then I hope by the grace of God that according to the tradition of God you will not be safe from the punishment of a liar. Thus that punishment which is not by human hands but only at the hands of God, such as plague and cholera etc., deadly diseases are not afflicted upon you than I am not from God." (Majmooa-e-Ishterharat, vol.3, p.578-579)

So this was the prayer of Mirza Qadiani, which he publicized. This advertisement was dated 5 April 1907. Within one year, in 1908, Mirza Qadiani died such a humiliating and disgraceful death from cholera disease, which he had claimed to be a deadly disease from the Hands of Allah. His father-in-law, Mir Nasir Nawab, who was at the side of his deathbed in Lahore was a witness, and he recorded his testimony as follows:

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]"When I reached Hazrat Sahib (Mirza) and saw his condition, then he addressed me and said: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]'Mir sahib, I have developed epidemic cholera'. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]I think after that he did not say anything clear till he died next day at 10am."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1](Hayat-e-Nasir, p.14)

Subhan Allah! The dying words of Mirza was that he had been afflicted with cholera, and after that he could not say anything else! Thus Allah answered the prayer of Mirza Qadiani and put to death the liar in the lifetime of the truthful person. As for Maulvi Sanaullah Amritsari (rahmatullah alaih), he lived for full forty years after, and even witnessed the creation of Pakistan in 1947. So this is a true Heavenly sign and proof that Mirza Qadiani was a cursed and wretched liar.
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]

 

[Sunstone]

So you call him no true muslim, yet you want to debate him in the Same Faith arena?

Surely, it is for God to decide who is a believer and who is not.

Regards,
Scott

I agree, Scott, it's kind of tacky to say someone is not a true Muslim if they say they are. It's not in the spirit of the Forum to say things like that.

 

[Riverwolf]

I recommend those who have the ability to do so close this thread. This forum is not for unwarranted challenges to someone's personal beliefs based on one's own personal beliefs.

 

[Ilias Ahmad]

Surely, it is for God to decide who is a believer and who is not.

Indeed, it is for Allah to decide who is a believer and what are the characteristics of belief, which if someone possesses makes him a true mu'min a believer, someone who has 'iman (faith).

And Allah has revealed these things in His last and final revelation, the Qur'an-e-Majeed, Furqan-e-Hameed, which is the Criterion, revealing what is true and what is false:

Ya ayyuha ladheena 'amanoo 'aminoo billahi wa rasoolihi wa'l kitabi lladhee nazzala 'ala rasoolihi wa'l kitabi lladhee anzala min qablu waman yakfur billahi wamalaikatihi wakutubihi warusulihi walyawmi alakhiri faqad dalla dalalan ba'eeda (4:136) which means "O you who believe, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book (Qur'an) which has been sent down to His Messenger, and the Book which He sent to those before. And whosoever denies Allah and His Angels and His Books and His Messengers and the Last Day has gone far astray." So according to this verse of the Holy Qur'an, a believer i) believes in Allah, ii) believes in His Messenger, Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam), iii) believes in the Qur'an, iv) believes in what was revealed to the earlier prophets, v) does not deny Allah, vi) does not deny His Angels, vii) does not deny His Books, viii) does not deny any of His Messengers, ix) and does not deny the Last Day, or the Day of Judgment.

If we use this comprehensive criteria, which is Allah's criteria and not a man made decision, than we can determine who is a true believer and who is not. As for Qadianis, they go against the teaching of Qur'an and the teaching of Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa salam), therefore, how they can be considered as Muslims, not to mention believers?

 

[Sahar]

This forum is not for unwarranted challenges to someone's personal beliefs based on one's own personal beliefs.

:sarcastic

 

[tariqkhwaja]

This forum is not for unwarranted challenges to someone's personal beliefs based on one's own personal beliefs.

That is what this forum is all about. So please do not close this thread.
Besides, I find it far easier to close arguments with Muslims than with non-Muslims. Because Muslims hold true to the Quran and it is the foundation of their beliefs which makes it easy for me to negate their beliefs because the Quran does not support those beliefs (in fact negates them). The fact is that the Quran does not allow wrong beliefs to be attributed to it.
Also, same-faith is fine since I consider myself Muslim.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Ilyaas please stick to one argument at a time. You have presented many and I do not want to answer them all in one post. I would rather take them up one at a time.

The word khatam can have two different connotations, literal and allegorical. In the examples which you have given, the word khatam is clearly carrying an allegorical usage.

You did not carefully read what I typed. I said "One rather simple argument for this might be exploration of a similar use of the word Khaatam." You overlooked the word "similar". The meanings of Khatam you gave me are applicable for that sort of usage. But when one says
1. Khaatam-ash-Shuara'a (Last of the poets)
2. Khaatam-al-Auliya (Last of the gaurdians)
3. Khaatam-al-Mua'alimeen (Last of the teachers)
then we take the allegorical connotation. So when Khaatam is used in the above manner then one makes allegorical and not literal connotation, right? Therefore, Khaatam-an-Nabiyyin (Last of the Prophets) where Khaatam is used in the exact same manner as in the above examples must have the same meaning as in the above examples. Right?
If you do not agree then give me just 1 example in the HISTORY of Arabic usage where Khaatam-al-[insert profession here] can refer to something other than the allegorical usage. So, for example, Khaatam-ul-(sportsmen) or Khaatam-ul-(scholars) or Khaatam-ul-(people of any profession).
I challenge you to find one example and I assure you you will not find it (even in the English language if I said "Last of the teachers" everyone would understand it is allegorical).

 

[Popeyesays]

"

Now let us examine whether Dajjal-o-Kazzab Mirza Qadiani "

He just called Mirza Qudiani the 'antichrist'. I'm reporting the post.

Regards,
Scott

 

[kai]

:sarcastic:sarcastic

:sarcastic

 

[tariqkhwaja]

He just called Mirza Qudiani the 'antichrist'. I'm reporting the post.

No, Dajjal refers to a liar. Messiah-e-Dajjal refers to the antichrist and Dajjal Kazib refers to any liar (Dajjal literally means a two-faced person). Just for your info.

 

[Popeyesays]

No, Dajjal refers to a liar. Messiah-e-Dajjal refers to the antichrist and Dajjal Kazib refers to any liar (Dajjal literally means a two-faced person). Just for your info.

In English using a capital letter indicates special meaning. 'Dajjal' would refer to the Muslim antichrist, while 'dajjal' would mean any liar at all.

I would assume that Mirza Ghulam Qadiyyani had both eyes and was not prone to riding a donkey, therefore he cannot be the fundamentalist "Dajjal' anyway.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Sahar]

In English using a capital letter indicates special meaning. 'Dajjal' would refer to the Muslim antichrist, while 'dajjal' would mean any liar at all.

I would assume that Mirza Ghulam Qadiyyani had both eyes and was not prone to riding a donkey, therefore he cannot be the fundamentalist "Dajjal' anyway.

Regards,
Scott

No. As Tariq said "dajjal" means liar.
I don't know Scott but why are you bothered that much? Muhammad is a liar in the eyes of some other religions, it's not something new to hear....plus it's well known the opinion of the Muslim scholars about this group and if this isn't going to be debated here then there?

 

[Ilias Ahmad]

If you do not agree then give me just 1 example in the HISTORY of Arabic usage where Khaatam-al-[insert profession here] can refer to something other than the allegorical usage. So, for example, Khaatam-ul-(sportsmen) or Khaatam-ul-(scholars) or Khaatam-ul-(people of any profession).

Perhaps you are aware of a hadith in Kanzul Ummal where Rasoolullah (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has called his uncle, Hazrat Abbas (Radhi Allahu 'anhu) as khatamul muhajireen (last of the emigrants).

 

[JohnKirmani]

Dude, this is NOT a new phenomenon. Every religion wants its prophet to be the last one. Its a totally reasonable request from them. Unfortunately it never happens. God always sends another prophet. Even the Christians consider Jesus to be the last, the khatim-nabiyin. So do the Jews, Hindus and all the other religions. They all consider their religion to be the last one and their prophets to be the last. Soo your argument that YOUR particular religion(in this case, Islam) is ridiculous.

Secondly how are the Ahmadis supposed to PROVE that their religion is the RIGHT. This is another very ludicrous request from you. No one can PROVE that their religion is the right one. If it was so easy to give so called proofs of a religions validity then why don't you go and 'PROVE' that Islam is the only true religion to all the disbelievers out there. No one can even 'prove' the existence of God which is why a majority of the world don't even believe in one. What are you, a 10 year old? We already know that your prophet is the 'last' one. I've yet to meet any religious person who says otherwise.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Perhaps you are aware of a hadith in Kanzul Ummal where Rasoolullah (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) has called his uncle, Hazrat Abbas (Radhi Allahu 'anhu) as khatamul muhajireen (last of the emigrants).

Thank you Ilyaas for proving my point. Hazrat Abbas was not the last emigrant in the Muslim world.

Dude, this is NOT a new phenomenon. Every religion wants its prophet to be the last one. Its a totally reasonable request from them. Unfortunately it never happens. God always sends another prophet. Even the Christians consider Jesus to be the last, the khatim-nabiyin. So do the Jews, Hindus and all the other religions. They all consider their religion to be the last one and their prophets to be the last. Soo your argument that YOUR particular religion(in this case, Islam) is ridiculous.

Excellent point.

Secondly how are the Ahmadis supposed to PROVE that their religion is the RIGHT. This is another very ludicrous request from you. No one can PROVE that their religion is the right one. If it was so easy to give so called proofs of a religions validity then why don't you go and 'PROVE' that Islam is the only true religion to all the disbelievers out there. No one can even 'prove' the existence of God which is why a majority of the world don't even believe in one. What are you, a 10 year old? We already know that your prophet is the 'last' one. I've yet to meet any religious person who says otherwise.

Strongly differ with you there. There are several ways to prove a Prophet right. See other threads on this forum. Here is one where I try to prove the truth of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him):
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ove-mohammed-prophet-without-using-quran.html

 

[Popeyesays]

Dude, this is NOT a new phenomenon. Every religion wants its prophet to be the last one. Its a totally reasonable request from them. Unfortunately it never happens. God always sends another prophet. Even the Christians consider Jesus to be the last, the khatim-nabiyin. So do the Jews, Hindus and all the other religions. They all consider their religion to be the last one and their prophets to be the last. Soo your argument that YOUR particular religion(in this case, Islam) is ridiculous.

I'm Baha`i and Baha`u'llah declares quite clearly that the succession of Prophets will never end, as the Revelation of God can never end.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Ilias Ahmad]

Thank you Ilyaas for proving my point. Hazrat Abbas was not the last emigrant in the Muslim world.

Hazrat Abbas (Radhi Allahu 'anhu) was the last muhajir to come from Makka to Madinah Munawwara, and it is in this context that Rasoolullah (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) called him as "khatama almuhajireen" (last of the emigrants). As you may know, the Sahaba were divided into two categories, Ansar and Muhajireen. Today no one can become this kind of Ansar or Muhajir. Hazrat Abbas (radhi Allahu anhu) was the last Muhajir, meaning the last sahabi to come from Makka to Madinah.

Dude, this is NOT a new phenomenon. Every religion wants its prophet to be the last one. Its a totally reasonable request from them. Unfortunately it never happens. God always sends another prophet. Even the Christians consider Jesus to be the last, the khatim-nabiyin. So do the Jews, Hindus and all the other religions. They all consider their religion to be the last one and their prophets to be the last. Soo your argument that YOUR particular religion(in this case, Islam) is ridiculous.

This is completely incorrect. Christians do not regard Jesus as the last prophet, Jesus never said anywhere that he is the last prophet. Jews do not believe in a last prophet either, and Hindus don't believe in prophets at all. It is only one religion, Islam, which teaches belief in prophets, and which teaches that Sayyidina Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa salam) is the Seal of the Prophets, and no new prophet will come after him.

Secondly how are the Ahmadis supposed to PROVE that their religion is the RIGHT.

We are not asking the Qadianis to prove their religion is right. Qadianis claim to have the same religion as us - Islam. We are only asking Qadianis to show us from Islamic sources (the Holy Quran and Sunnah) that Mirza Qadiani fits the criterion for the Messiah and Mahdi. We both claim to believe in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah, so this is not a matter of proving which religion is right, this is a matter of proving who does Quran and Sunnah support, Sunni Muslims or Qadianis?

 

[shahid]

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not claim to be a prophet. This was an invention of his son many years after HMGA's demise.