Choices

[joelr]

Gender has naught to do with faith.

Nothing has anything directly to do with faith? But things can be related to faith. Anyone can take it that their gender or race is superior to others. They can take it on faith.

Anything that doesn't have evidence you can use faith. Any story about a God, alien, Big Foot or any entity that does not have evidence you can take on faith.
Anyone can take a book that someone claimed has words from God and take it on faith that those words are from God.
Like Joseph Smith and his messages from God. Or Islam and the updated God messages from the angel Gabrielle. Or Pauls message that women should remain silent in church. Or messages from Jesus that there will be no more prophets. You can take that all on faith.
People do. And now we have all sorts of conflicting faiths because faith is not a good path to truth.

Faith is a choice. If you choose not to have faith in God, what is there to debate?

I don't see that it is a choice. Why didn't you get behind the worship of Lord Krishna? Or why didn't you join Islam and pray to Allah? Because you could see there was no evidence. Something convinced you that there was evidence that this time it really was God. There are things to debate, that actually has been done and all the evidence was found wanting.

You to your path, I will walk mine. I will live as best I can in virtue and morality, I will try to be the very best neighbour.

If your path has the same values, then life will be lived in unity of those community minded goals.

I am not here to change your mind, I am here to offer alternatives that may foster a lasting unity of humanity, endlessly debating alternatives is not fruitful and is counter-productive in achieving unity.

Completely disagree. First joining a minority religion will not result in unity because billions of people believe in a different version of religion. By 2050 Islam will be the largest religion. We don't need more people who think their version is true while the billions here are wrong and the billions over there are also wrong.
Endlessly debating is good. Some people are stuck and will forever be stuck in superstitious thinking. This isn't for them, it's for people who are open to questioning beliefs and being able to look at evidence even when it challenges what they want to be true.
In The Republic Plato already said one of the important ways to control a society is to create a religious myth and force people to believe through social pressure and labeling non-believers heretics. A few centuries later, the Vatican emerges.

There will be unity when everyone has realized there is no God giving messages, no prophets, just humans and our myths and philosophy and wisdom we create

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyone can take it that their gender or race is superior to others. They can take it on faith.

I see that is a built up predudice, not Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why didn't you get behind the worship of Lord Krishna? Or why didn't you join Islam and pray to Allah?

I accept Krishna and Muhammad are from God.

The rest needs no debate. You are free to see it the way you have chosen and the future will look back and know how unity was finally achieved.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Tony said: "Faith in God is not a debate."

A person has faith in God... How on earth is that a claim?

How on earth is it not?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How on earth is it not?

One declares a Faith in God, one does not make a claim of faith.

Declaration vs Claim - What's the difference?

The Messenger makes the Claim, I declare that I have faith in the Mesengers claim, after my own effort in determining the proof of that claim.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

One declares a Faith in God, one does not make a claim of faith.

Declaration vs Claim - What's the difference?

The Messenger makes the Claim, I declare that I have faith in the Mesengers claim, after my own effort in determining the proof of that claim.

Regards Tony

This was what I referred to as a claim:

Tony said: "Faith in God is not a debate."

That is a claim, and a bizarre one to offer in a debate forum. It is clear we do not agree on the nature of faith, thus it is open to debate here.

 

[joelr]

I see that is a built up predudice, not Faith.

Regards Tony

Nope.
Definitions of faith from Merrian Webster:

allegiance to duty or a person : faith in Nazi party
belief and trust in and loyalty to God: faith in any God
firm belief in something for which there is no proof: faith in white supremacy, faith in God
something that is believed especially with strong conviction: race superiority

"FAITH almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof."

You cannot hijack faith into just meaning faith in your God. People can have faith in many things. No evidence is the criteria.


defined prejudice as a "feeling, favorable or unfavorable, toward a person or thing, prior to, or not based on, actual experience".

That doesn't match the definition of one who believes in gender or race supremecy. They literally believe they are superior, they have faith in it.

Fact is faith is a terrible path to truth.

 

[joelr]

I accept Krishna and Muhammad are from God.

The rest needs no debate. You are free to see it the way you have chosen and the future will look back and know how unity was finally achieved.

Regards Tony

Yes unity will be achieved when humans stop believing in superstitious nonsense. Unity will not be achieved by joining a religion that tells 2 main religions (one known for radical sects) that they are wrong and updates have happened and their God has new information. Then telling CHristians the Jesus thing is all wrong and it turns out that blah blah.......That's how to end up in a holy war. If a really bad disaster happens ands sends humanity back to the stone age, Muslims and Christians will probably go back to war for real. Smaller religions will be wiped off the map.
If things progress as they are now, the technology and information culture is exposing too many younger people to empiricism and facts they can learn themselves. They can find out what peer-reviewed books to read and will cultivate critical thinking. No more scientologists, or any wu-related archaic nonsense. Secular humanism will prevail as older generations kick and scream about how their myths are real.
In fact Europe is generally there now, to a degree.

In the information age, soon enough every person is going to ask "show me the evidence".

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not long ago a religious fait was a certainty.
Almost every one followed the faith of the society that they were born into.

Religions were enforced with the force of law.
It took real courage to be a heretic, and many paid the ultimate price.

Unitarianism, deism and humanism and the many variations of those beliefs in the West
have broken the links of traditional religions to the mass of society.
People now expect to be able to decide matters of "Faith" themselves.

The scientific world has introduced everyone to the principals of questioning, evidence and testing.
Religions are fundamentally unable to withstand such scrutiny.
Faith itself is based on belief without proof.

This trend to enlightenment based on testable evidence, is steadily eroding all faith based thinking.

Belief in God is unlikely to continue as mainstream into the future. but will become increasingly irrelevant to both individuals and society.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Belief in God is unlikely to continue as mainstream into the future. but will become increasingly irrelevant to both individuals and society.

This has been foretold, yet it will be found man can not live without our One God.

In the Baha'i Writings Shoghi Effendi has described what the world faces and sums it up as the three "chief idols in the desecrated temple of mankind" being "the triple gods of Nationalism, Racialism and Communism" (The Promised Day is Come, page 117).

In this respect Communism has been defined as follows;

".....The context in which Shoghi Effendi made this reference clarifies his meaning on this point. He was referring to the demise of religion as a vital force in the affairs of human beings, and its replacement with these three main secular gods. He describes at the time of writing, how the various governments and peoples of the world, whether democratic or totalitarian, whether at peace or at war, whether of the east or the west, Christian or Islamic, were, in various forms and in different degrees, worshipping at the alter of these three gods through their 'priests', the politicians and the worldly-wise. He quotes from the writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, possibly written before the Russian Revolution of 1917:

"Movements, newly born and world-wide in their range, will exert their utmost efforts for the advancement of their designs. The Movement of the Left will acquire great importance. Its influence will spread." (The Promised Day is Come, page 118).

We already know what this mindset is born from, this passage informs us,

"And the breeding ground of all these tragedies is prejudice: prejudice of race and nation, of religion, of political opinion; and the root of prejudice is blind imitation of the past - imitation in religion, in racial attitudes, in national bias, in politics. So long as this aping of the past persisteth, just so long will the foundations of the social order be blown to the four winds, just so long will humanity be continually exposed to direst peril." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, page 247).

Bahá'u'lláh has directly and firmly proclaimed the vital necessity of religion as a pillar of the new world order. Its decline in recent times is directly linked to the declining fortunes of the peoples of the world. He said:

"The face of the world hath altered. They way of God and religion of God have ceased to be of any worth in the eyes of men. The vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land; ... The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; ... Religion is, verily the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world, and of tranquillity amongst its peoples. ... The greater the decline of religion, the more grievous the waywardness of the ungodly. This cannot but lead in the end to chaos and confusion. ... Religion is a radiant light and an impregnable stronghold for the protection and welfare of the peoples of the world ..." (variously collected in The Promised Day is Come, page 117).

And In another passage, Bahá'u'lláh states;

"Should the lamp of religion be obscured, chaos and confusion will ensue, and the lights of fairness and justice, of tranquillity and peace cease to shine." (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, page 125).

That is what choices are all about, as the world further declines mankind as a whole will be faced with much calamity and in the midst of that calamity, mankind will have to consider the elimination of those false gods of Nationalism, Racialism and Communism and consider that God is the only One that can help us.

This is why I post in debate threads, God is not a debate, God is our only help. The debate is born out of the false God's of Nationalism, Racialism and Communism.

The proof will be the elimination of those false God's, as the future generations embrace our oneness.

A friend of mine wrote this paper. Towards the New World Order

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

There will be unity when everyone has realized there is no God giving messages, no prophets, just humans and our myths and philosophy and wisdom we create

Like Tony, I do not like to debate over who is right and who is wrong, but I do like to present accurate information, so when I see something that is inaccurate I feel compelled to say something.

There will never be a day when people realize there is no God. In fact humanity is moving in the opposite direction. According to the Bible and the Baha'i Writings in the future everyone will believe in God. People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they want to now but the future will be wholly different and everyone will know that God exists and everyone will choose to believe in God because God has never forced anyone to believe against their will.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

Statistics show that religion is on the increase and atheism is on the decline. Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

During this century Islam will overtake Christianity as the largest religion in the world, but eventually the Baha'i Faith will overtake Islam, just as Islam overtook Christianity. That will not happen for a very long time unless the Baha'is start doing something differently or unless God intervenes on earth.

In the future everyone will belong to one religion because that is what God has ordained.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

I am not claiming the 'one religion' will be the Baha'i Faith, it will be whatever religion was revealed during the dispensation which God is working through when that finally occurs, but by the time that occurs everyone will know who Baha'u'llah was.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

 

[Trailblazer]

How on earth is it not?

How is a person's faith in God a claim?

 

[CG Didymus]

"Should the lamp of religion be obscured, chaos and confusion will ensue, and the lights of fairness and justice, of tranquillity and peace cease to shine."

Religion is, verily the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world, and of tranquillity amongst its peoples.

So when did this "fairness" and "justice" and "tranquility" happen? Religion has been part of the problem. And don't Baha'is agree? That all the previous religions have been corrupted with false traditions and doctrines? Religions have been used to control people and get them to do as they are told? Maybe in theory. But in reality, religion just gets into the mix of corrupt things in the world. Which religion, if any, is the truth? Religion has added to the chaos and confusion. Except, of course, yours.

 

[Trailblazer]

Belief in God is unlikely to continue as mainstream into the future. but will become increasingly irrelevant to both individuals and society.

Belief in God will continue as mainstream into the future and will become increasingly relevant to both individuals and society until which time everyone on earth believes in God. I explained that trend and what will happen in the future in this post:

#411 Trailblazer

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So when did this "fairness" and "justice" and "tranquility" happen? Religion has been part of the problem. And don't Baha'is agree? That all the previous religions have been corrupted with false traditions and doctrines? Religions have been used to control people and get them to do as they are told? Maybe in theory. But in reality, religion just gets into the mix of corrupt things in the world. Which religion, if any, is the truth? Religion has added to the chaos and confusion. Except, of course, yours.

There were many great times recorded in the past where rulers were living in tune with the teachings of their Faith and thus the communities were also reflecting this.

It all ties back into progressive revelations. Faith was born, grows as an infant, then as a child, then becomes an adolescent, then in this age moving now on to maturity.

Through each of those stages we know there are many ups and downs, many growing pains and mistakes made, but in the end the child will become an adult and maturity of faith will guide us in the future.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

This has been foretold, yet it will be found man can not live without our One God.

Zeus?

 

[Sheldon]

How is a person's faith in God a claim?

Not what I said.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Zeus?

Your choice.

Names can become a veil to our one God. The elephant story is the meditation required.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Not what I said.

Then what did you say?

 

[Sheldon]

Your choice.

Oh I hardly think so.