Choices

[Sheldon]

Then what did you say?

It's in my post, it's a single sentence? It's not in the least ambiguous, at least I'd thought it wasn't.

 

[joelr]

Like Tony, I do not like to debate over who is right and who is wrong, but I do like to present accurate information, so when I see something that is inaccurate I feel compelled to say something.

There will never be a day when people realize there is no God. In fact humanity is moving in the opposite direction.

Not true. The atheist numbers are much higher and literally every Christian I know who identifies as a Christian doesn't actually believe it's true. Europe is largely secular. and is generally confused at the AMerican Bible Belt. There is a documentary where people are interviewed on the street in several European countries and that is the general consensus.

According to the Bible and the Baha'i Writings in the future everyone will believe in God. People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they want to now but the future will be wholly different and everyone will know that God exists and everyone will choose to believe in God because God has never forced anyone to believe against their will.

In Deuteronomy Yahweh also says the Israelites will destroy all they encounter and all nations will bow to them. They were invaded by the Babylonians, Persians, Romans and more. You can't be serious by sourcing the Bible? "The Bible says....." Belief in supernatural things is dramatically down. Information exchange is exposing people to facts that were not available until the last `15 years or so. The days of superstitious belief is definitely diminishing.
Again there is no proof of God and no proof of God speaking to people. Those are facts and why we are now seeing so many religious people, including religious leaders leaving the faith. New people who have left religions call into the Secular humanists shows weekly. Many were religious teachers of some sort.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Wow, it's true because an ancient religious book says it's true?? Have you lost your mind?

1. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
2. "Thy kingdom shall be established for ever."
   God says that Davids's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
   
3. 1. These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
   2. 1. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
      1. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
      2. "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
      3. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
      4. These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21
      5. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-138.html#pg153

Yes that day is always approaching in Apocalypticism. Beliefs that started with the Persian myths and were adopted by Jewish thinkers during the 2nd Temple Period. Congrats on keeping those ancient myths going. The Bahai version given on this page is different, it doesn't sound like what your quote is saying?
Apocalypticism - Wikipedia

Persian apocalypticism
At the end of the "third time" (the first being the age of creation, the second of mixture, and the third of separation), there will be a great battle between the forces of good (the yazatas) and those of evil (the daevas) in which the good will triumph. On earth, the Saoshyant will bring about a resurrection of the dead in the bodies they had before they died. This is followed by a last judgment through ordeal. The yazatas Airyaman and Atar will melt the metal in the hills and mountains, and the molten metal will then flow across the earth like a river. All mankind—both the living and the resurrected dead—will be required to wade through that river, but for the righteous (ashavan) it will seem to be a river of warm milk, while the wicked will be burned. The river will then flow down to hell, where it will annihilate Angra Mainyu and the last vestiges of wickedness in the universe.[125]

The narrative continues with a projection of Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas solemnizing a final act of worship (yasna), and the preparation of parahaoma from "white haoma". The righteous will partake of the parahaoma, which will confer immortality upon them. Thereafter, humankind will become like the Amesha Spentas, living without food, without hunger or thirst, and without weapons (or possibility of bodily injury). The material substance of the bodies will be so light as to cast no shadow. All humanity will speak a single language and belong to a single nation without borders. All will share a single purpose and goal, joining with the divine for a perpetual exaltation of God's glory.[126]"

It's all unproven mythology, why you feel the need to post is weird. I could post lines from Lord of the Rings, doesn't make it real?

 

[joelr]

Statistics show that religion is on the increase and atheism is on the decline. Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

They don't - "In terms of absolute numbers, irreligion appears to be increasing (along with secularization generally)"

another problem is many many people are identifying as Christain but are really agnostoc.

"According to a study conducted by Pew Research Center in 2012, the number of Americans who do not identify with any religion has increased from 15% in 2007 to 20% in 2012, and this number continues to grow. One fifth of the US public and a third of adults under the age of 30 are reportedly unaffiliated with any religion but identify as being spiritual in some way. Of these religiously unaffiliated Americans, 37% classify themselves as spiritual but not religious, while 68% say they do believe in God, and 58% feel a deep connection to the Earth.["

People are moving away from organized religion because they are realizing that stuff is not true.
It is no secret that the number of people who believe something doesn't make it any more true so this isn't that important. But the vast majority of Christians I meet in the NorthEast are more agnostic.

During this century Islam will overtake Christianity as the largest religion in the world, but eventually the Baha'i Faith will overtake Islam, just as Islam overtook Christianity. That will not happen for a very long time unless the Baha'is start doing something differently or unless God intervenes on earth.

I saw the part on the Wiki page about Islam overtaking Christianity. Then you just made stuff up?

In the future everyone will belong to one religion because that is what God has ordained.

Are your personal beliefs of which you have no evidence. No evidence for God except ancient claims and stories and no evidence of what a God wants except anecdotal claims by a nutjob.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-8.html#pg91

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name. Jeremiah 29:7-8

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

I don't know why you waste time posting scripture. Any other religion will just counter with their own, which is why I bothered to do that. But these writings have been demonstrated to be from a man. Nothing more. We went over the evidence, it failed on every level. Provide evidence of a God and evidence that this is his words. Rather than the ramblings of a prolific writer who decided to tell people he was getting God messages. His writing is weak, flowery, long winded and is far below the trained Greek writers of the Gospels. Compared to philosophers of his day he writes like a child. Compared to Plato he's writing romantic fiction novels. If you find that enthralling, good for you. It's embarrassing to think you think a God said these words.

 

[night912]

You'd have to explain to me how that could be the case.

How is it possible that Muhammad and his companions could claim that he received revelations from angel Gabriel, being the whole Qur'an over a period of years, and be mistaken?

I can't see how mistakes like that can happen. The Qur'an is ...
well, the Qur'an !
..and it just happens to come at a time when "Rome" had violently persecuted believers in strict monotheism.
It's no coincidence that G-d would send a prophet with practically the same creed as the Jewish creed. A creed that Jesus followed.

If you were G-d, how could you leave mankind without true, clear guidance?
ALL prophets were sent to mankind with the first commandment.
Is G-d jealous of mankind if they worship other than Him?
..not in the human sense of the word.

What is there not to understand?
"THERE IS NO DEITY BUT YHWH, WHO HAS NO PARTNER"

G-d is not in need of mankind.
Anthromorphising G-d and claiming he is envious of gods that only exist in the minds of men [i.e. falsehood], is misbelief.

I already explained it but here it is again.

If Mohammed mistaken a dream as being a message from god when it wasn't a message then:

1. Mohammad genuinely believed it was true, therefore gad no intent of deceiving other.

2. Someone having a dream and interpret meaningful things into to the dream, does not qualify as being deluded

So that would make it to be 3 options

A) It was true

B) Mohammad was lying and being fraudulent or mentally ill

C) Mohammad was mistaken

Unless if you can explain why it's 100% impossible for Mohammad to make a mistake, my objection remains valid.


All that's required for me is to show that what I said was possible in the smallest degree, which I did. You on other hand, must show that it's impossible for Mohammad to make a mistake. And something being possible or impossible is not contingent on you. In other words, similar excuses to these are automatically dismissed:

Not making sense to you
You can't imagine that happening
Not knowing how it could have happened

BTW,
I already met my burden of proof, so trying to shift it to me is futile.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If Mohammed mistaken a dream as being a message from god when it wasn't a message then:

1. Mohammad genuinely believed it was true, therefore gad no intent of deceiving other.

2. Someone having a dream and interpret meaningful things into to the dream, does not qualify as being deluded
...
Unless if you can explain why it's 100% impossible for Mohammad to make a mistake, my objection remains valid.

..so the Qur'an is a series of mistakes?
The revelations that came to him over many years were all mistakes?

Sorry, I find that harder to believe than it actually being true.
It would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Qur'an, could be "the mistakes" of a relatively isolated, uneducated desert man.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

..so the Qur'an is a series of mistakes?
The revelations that came to him over many years were all mistakes?

Sorry, I find that harder to believe than it actually being true.
It would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Qur'an, could be "the mistakes" of a relatively isolated, uneducated desert man.

I though that he could neither read nor write and dictated his words.?
There is no suggestion that Jesus ever wrote anything either, but he could read.

 

[night912]

..so the Qur'an is a series of mistakes?
The revelations that came to him over many years were all mistakes?

Sorry, I find that harder to believe than it actually being true.
It would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Qur'an, could be "the mistakes" of a relatively isolated, uneducated desert man.

Your hand waving did nothing to show that what I said is impossible. I even went ahead pointed out that the possibility or impossibility of a thing is not contingent on you.

One either believes this, or thinks that Muhammad was deluded or fraudulent.

It's highly unlikely that you will address my point, but it's possible for you to address it, so can you stop dodging it and address my point without using a strawman.

Again, I've met my burden of proof, so trying to shift the burden of proof towards me is futile. I'm still waiting for you explain why my point is impossible.

Sorry, I find that harder to believe than it actually being true.

So you find that believing Muhammad to be deluded or fraudulent is just as easily as believing that the Qur'an is true? Or do you find that to be harder? If equal, why not believe that Muhammad was deluded? If it's harder, then why did you accept it as a possible option but not my example?

You just demonstrated that I'm correct. It was harder for you to believe, but it was possible for you to believe it. The third option that made your claim a false dichotomy.

 

[Sheldon]

..so the Qur'an is a series of mistakes?
The revelations that came to him over many years were all mistakes?

Sorry, I find that harder to believe than it actually being true.
It would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the Qur'an, could be "the mistakes" of a relatively isolated, uneducated desert man.

They needn't be all his, since he was illiterate and the Koran was written after he died, and not completed until 20 years after he died. This fact of course does not rule out error, embellishment, or even outright chicanery, on anyone's part. Since we know human beings are capable of all such, and especially when creating religions, and we have no objective evidence anyone has ever received a revelation for any deity, I think the probability is leaning in a very different direction to the one you are insisting on.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They needn't be all his, since he was illiterate and the Koran was written after he died..

More conspiracy theories?
I'll leave that for you to decide.
I'm sure you know all about the oral recitation, and how it isn't just a case of what is written.

We have also discovered some very early texts that were in the Cadbury Museum in Birmingham UK. They show no discrepancies.

 

[Sheldon]

More conspiracy theories?

Where did I voice a conspiracy theory? I just pointed out that it was not impossible.

I'll leave that for you to decide.

Decide what?

I'm sure you know all about the oral recitation, and how it isn't just a case of what is written.

You think people can't be wrong, deluded, dishonest or conniving using an oral account?

We have also discovered some very early texts that were in the Cadbury Museum in Birmingham UK. They show no discrepancies.

So? A four page manuscript containing parts of Surahs 18,19 and 20 of the Qur'an, and of unknown authorship. What are you implying form this exactly? I mean If I find a first edition of the Harry Potter novels, what does this tell us about wizardry?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I mean If I find a first edition of the Harry Potter novels, what does this tell us about wizardry?

The Qur'an is not about wizardry. It confirms the Bible. Nobody is forced to believe it, and there are no tricks played on people.

Is it possible for a man to have an astral journey to a different plane? Yes, although it can't be proved one way or another.

Do good deeds and bad deeds exist? Yes, but some people will only accept a subset of what scripture teaches .. or even none at all.

 

[Sheldon]

The Qur'an is not about wizardry.

Straw man fallacy again.

It confirms the Bible.

Wow wow, hold the bus, you're claiming a book, written after another book, somehow confirms something for the first book? Pretty sure Rocky was in rocky 1 and then in rocky 2, this is blowing my mind man...

Nobody is forced to believe it, and there are no tricks played on people.

I am right now talking to poster in another forum from Pakistan, who is an atheist, he seems to think his life is in danger if this becomes known, who to believe who to believe.

Ex-Muslims of North America Now what is that persecution tracker for?

Is it possible for a man to have an astral journey to a different plane? Yes, although it can't be proved one way or another.

Oh good, it's been a few minutes since you reeled off an unevidenced claim.

Do good deeds and bad deeds exist? Yes, but some people will only accept a subset of what scripture teaches .. or even none at all.

Good and bad are subjective terms, do think Hitler thought the Holocaust as bad or Good? Hmm?

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow wow, hold the bus, you're claiming a book, written after another book, somehow confirms something for the first book?

Yes, that is how it works with scriptures. The New Testament confirmed the Old Testament, the Qur'an confirmed the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah confirmed the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good and bad are subjective terms..

..as far as you're concerned, yes.

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
-Al Qur'an-

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, that is how it works with scriptures.

And the Rocky films.

..as far as you're concerned, yes.

Religious morals are as subjective as secular morals.

The New Testament confirmed the Old Testament, the Qur'an confirmed the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah confirmed the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an.

Yes the Harry Potter books were sequential as well I believe, compelling evidence that...well for what exactly?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes the Harry Potter books were sequential as well I believe, compelling evidence that...well for what exactly?

Certainly not evidence for God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes the Harry Potter books were sequential as well I believe, compelling evidence that...well for what exactly?

That everything in the material world, in one way or another, reflects spiritual realities.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Certainly not evidence for God.

Lots of good virtues in those stories

Personally they were fun to watch, I do not read that type of book though.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Certainly not evidence for God.

Well my point precisely.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well my point precisely.

No, it's not. You merely imply that scripture is fiction.
That's your subjective opinion.