Choices

[Trailblazer]

and since no one can offer a shred of objective evidence for that claim, I disbelieve it, same as I disbelieve Santa Claus is real.

What kind of objective evidence do you think could be procured for God?

 

[QuestioningMind]

The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spirtual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

And/Or

Can we have a faith without making choices?

So all the best and it will be interesting to ponder the replies people offer.

Regards Tony

As an atheist I've always been baffled by the concept of 'choosing to believe'. For me to believe that something is true I require verifiable evidence. If such evidence is lacking I can't simply 'choose to believe' just because I'd like it to be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

As an atheist I've always been baffled by the concept of 'choosing to believe'. For me to believe that something is true I require verifiable evidence. If such evidence is lacking I can't simply 'choose to believe' just because I'd like it to be true.

As a believer I've always been baffled by the concept of 'choosing to believe'. For me to believe that something is true I require evidence. If such evidence is lacking I can't simply 'choose to believe' just because I'd like it to be true. There are some religions that have more curb appeal than my religion and offer better guarantees but I cannot just believe them because I might want to.

 

[SomeRandom]

There is the namakarana samskara which is name-giving. There are also many dikshas, like initiation into a particular sampradaya, or a mantra. But you're right, this may not be part of village Hinduism. I think the namakarana is though, for most.

As to the OP's thought, I voted yes and no because it respects the views of both sides, that for some it wasn't a choice, and for others it was. Attempts to project your personal ideas onto humanity generally fail miserably. It's folly to believe all men think alike.

Ahh yes the “name giving” rite. I always forget about that lol

It was never really treated as a big deal in my own family. Or even something considered necessary. Though in saying that my family have a whole range of sects going on. And given that they’re from Fiji, there’s probably not a whole lot of “orthodoxy” for lack of a better term.

Also I agree with your assessment

 

[Sheldon]

What kind of objective evidence do you think could be procured for God?

It's not my belief, ask someone who believes it, they ought to know. None one has demonstrated a shred of objective evidence anyway, that much is clear.

 

[F1fan]

I would say that we have to choose and that God gave us free will so we could choose to believe or not believe in Him, but that does not mean everyone will be able to choose to believe in Him.

Assuming this kind of God exists, of course.

But given the observations of diverse cultures, and understanding the power of social learning and pressures, the reason many end up as believers in religion is not any sort of choice, but the basic subconscious conditioning and the need to belong.

And let's not ignore the role of the biology of the brain that is highly motivated to believe for the sake of meaning.

The OP will probably have a problem wit all this.

 

[Aštra’el]

Faith- like many things- is something we develop.

For the young and impressionable, any humans close to a person can have a significant impact on their development. As we progress through life and become wiser and more attuned to the world around us, we become more responsible for our own development, as it is guided by own thoughts, choices and experiences in life... but we also grow more cemented in what we’ve become, and far less malleable.

So it is not one single choice, but a development.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ahh yes the “name giving” rite. I always forget about that lol

It was never really treated as a big deal in my own family. Or even something considered necessary. Though in saying that my family have a whole range of sects going on. And given that they’re from Fiji, there’s probably not a whole lot of “orthodoxy” for lack of a better term.

Also I agree with your assessment

There are two Fijian run temples here, and I really like each of them. It is unique though, quite different than Indian run temples. A couple in Vancouver too.

 

[rational experiences]

Basic human advice about faith says hence we must all be the same.

For without the same faith humans do evil towards other observed.

Hence faith does not believe in evil choice but observed it.

Faith in advice hence proved to do no harm in life was the highest spiritual faithful advice. That rationally owned no argument.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Participation in a religion is a choice.

Belief isn't a choice, but it's influenced by our choices (e.g. what we choose to read or who we choose to associate with).

Not sure that is logical?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you have choice at the age of 12?
I'd say no, you are too young.

Yes I would agree, maybe at least 15 years old.

I was making work/life decisions from.that age, as many in my era were also.

Regards Tony

 

[Nimos]

Have you spent much time talking to creationists?

No, I don't believe so

But it applies to all beliefs, not only religious. If one believe in ghosts, how are they going to simply stop believing in them? I don't see that happening, unless someone or something convince them otherwise

 

[SomeRandom]

There are two Fijian run temples here, and I really like each of them. It is unique though, quite different than Indian run temples. A couple in Vancouver too.

Yeah. There always seemed to be a “difference” in the Fijian approach vs the Indian approach, for lack of a better phrase. At least from my perspective

Maybe the combining of colonialism and forcing the mixture of various ideologies in Fijian villages shaped them more than I cared to notice.

 

[rational experiences]

My life born. Lived experience.

I was forced not to believe in God by religious expressed dogma. Hypocrites in their orders.

I however had faith in my love and human felt observed family expressive nations as an admired view of extended family. Humans.

I learnt about God in my human experience.

O planet existed no man built it.
The heavens existed first as varied masses reactive as just reactions first...no man built it.

Observed experience no man is God.

Heard however the voice.

An Australian song says....your the voice try to understand it. Make a noise and make it clear. Were not going to sit in silence were not going to live with fear.

I believed.

I felt.

I loved.

I heard the voice. Our spirit father.

Spirit as his life memory is now encoded recorded in the heavens.

Definition of a spirit versus biological consciousness.

Taught. Is real.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah. There always seemed to be a “difference” in the Fijian approach vs the Indian approach, for lack of a better phrase. At least from my perspective

Maybe the combining of colonialism and forcing the mixture of various ideologies in Fijian villages shaped them more than I cared to notice.

Not just Fiji ... anywhere in the sugar diaspora. Guyanese run temples, Trinidadian run temples, etc. also have that similar Fijian feel. (In my limited experience) One obvious thing I've noticed is the difference in the priesthood. In the sugar diaspora, the priest are far more likely to be Pandaram.

 

[SomeRandom]

Not just Fiji ... anywhere in the sugar diaspora. Guyanese run temples, Trinidadian run temples, etc. also have that similar Fijian feel. (In my limited experience) One obvious thing I've noticed is the difference in the priesthood. In the sugar diaspora, the priest are far more likely to be Pandaram.

Oh really? Are Indian priests not Pandaram?
(That’s like lower caste, right?)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not sure that is logical?

Regards Tony

Which part are you having trouble with?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not my belief, ask someone who believes it, they ought to know. None one has demonstrated a shred of objective evidence anyway, that much is clear.

"What kind of objective evidence do you think could be procured for God?"

There can never be any objective evidence for God, so the answer is - no kind.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My life born. Lived experience.

I was forced not to believe in God by religious expressed dogma. Hypocrites in their orders.

I however had faith in my love and human felt observed family expressive nations as an admired view of extended family. Humans.

I learnt about God in my human experience.

O planet existed no man built it.
The heavens existed first as varied masses reactive as just reactions first...no man built it.

Observed experience no man is God.

Heard however the voice.

An Australian song says....your the voice try to understand it. Make a noise and make it clear. Were not going to sit in silence were not going to live with fear.

I believed.

I felt.

I loved.

I heard the voice. Our spirit father.

Spirit as his life memory is now encoded recorded in the heavens.

Definition of a spirit versus biological consciousness.

Taught. Is real.

God is indeed in us all.

Nice Johnny Farnham song

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which part are you having trouble with?

That belief is not a choice.

Regards Tony