Choices

[Trailblazer]

By all means, enlighten me. Tell me what god is and then I'll know.

Okay, below is a description of God according to my religion.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

Personal God

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

God does not answer prayers, does not protect, does not enforce justice, not not teach, is not there.

Hey God - if you are real, stop this post from posting...stop me from typing this sentence...

Haha...

I hear you and I often feel the same way, more often than not, but I am still a believer because I believe God exists.
There is no requirement that I like God just because I believe He exists, although it is highly recommended.
But the truth is that after I started liking God more I started to get help from God, funny how that works.

I post all kinds of not so nice things about God and he never stops me so i guess He doesn't care about His reputation!

 

[Trailblazer]

I've not been punished, I've been blessed. Debts are paid, in good health, career booming, more time to spend on worthwhile pursuits - family has never been happier

I do not believe that God punishes nonbelievers. I think it is the same deal for both believers and nonbelievers.
It was simply your fate that things are going well for you. That was never my fate but at least my life is starting to improve. I should not complain because I have no debts and a lot of money and assets, good health, and a good job although I could retire anytime. Right now my biggest problems are my three houses. The more you have the more headaches you have.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Okay, below is a description of God according to my religion.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

Personal God

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith

his reality is completely unknowable.

If that's true then anyone who claims to know that god is real is actually just pretending, since this god being is COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Trailblazer]

his reality is completely unknowable.

If that's true then anyone who claims to know that god is real is actually just pretending, since this god being is COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE.

Thanks for clearing that up.

In context it says:
"his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable."

God's reality is God's Essence which is completely unknowable.

Maybe you missed the part where it says:
"While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God."

 

[firedragon]

If belief or disbelief is not a choice then why does Allah punish the disbelievers?

I think you need to really study the Quran a little before you make your claims. And if you really think the Quran is such a demon, you should denounce the Qur'an. Plain and simple. Dont use it when you want to propagate your own theology, then drop it when you need something else. Thats the definition of hypocrisy.

Anyway, any tom, dick, or harry can make a choice to do anything they want. So try your best not to misquote people on the sly. Open your eyes properly and read what I said clearly.

Every human being is born with Fitrah. You are a self professed, pseudo scholar of the Quran and the language so you should know what that exactly means. That does not mean humans dont have a choice.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In theory the choice of faith is your own choice. BUT so much depends on where you are born and which faith your parents practice.

If you are born in India you are most likely to be a Hindu, born in Indonesia a Muslim, born in USA a Christian

I'm pretty sure if I was born in the middle east, I'd with a fair degree of certainty, be a Muslim.

 

[sealchan]

The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spirtual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

And/Or

Can we have a faith without making choices?

So all the best and it will be interesting to ponder the replies people offer.

Regards Tony

I came up with a questionable formula for determining how much free will we have in anything that we do. There are four parts to a choice: 1) the part of a choice based on what we are, 2) the part of a choice based on circumstances beyond our control, 3) the part of a choice that has to do with experience and 4) the part of a choice that comes from our own action and sense of urgency Because we don't choose who we are (we are what cause and effect have produced in us) and because we are not master's of our reality or fate (we cannot control most of the physical and social reality we find ourselves in and because once something happens there is no going back and changing the past we really only have agency through whatever action we intend. That means that our power of decision making is only ever at most about 25% of the matter.

Now if that figure seems outrageous or it seems outrageous to even consider a figure at all, consider how we might actually try to measure the "parts of choices" and determine that numerically. But not doing it at all isn't acceptable either. We make assumptions all the time that involve an individual's responsibility or culpability that have significant consequences.

Oftentimes we think of free will as ambiguously split between an action we perform because it is meaningful to us and an action we perform independent of other contexts in our life. If meaning isn't contextual then it isn't anything. If we are not under compulsion of one sort or another, there is little context for decision to be personal and significant.

Free will is experienced most strongly when the stakes of our decision are high AND the choice is difficult to settle because the two or more options are balanced as far as their "payoff".

So ironically our faith beliefs often have a highly arbitrary, subjective component which is critical and, therefore, fragile and controversial to those who do not hold it. We may need, in most cases, the protection of our home culture to support such fragile, arbitrary (and therefore sacred) ideas as truths.

 

[oldbadger]

The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

Does your Faith have such guidance?

Regards Tony

High Tony........ You do realise that I'm going to have to google 'transmuting' .....yes?

Why does Bahaullah use such analogies as wine when he would never drink it?

Well, I cannot accept Bahaullah's 'outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace' because Deism just hit me smack in the mouth, many decades ago.
Being a Deist is like being out in a rainstorm...I didn't particularly want to be out there but it just came along and washed over me. It just is.....for me.

 

[QuestioningMind]

In context it says:
"his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable."

God's reality is God's Essence which is completely unknowable.

Maybe you missed the part where it says:
"While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God."

To me COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE means COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE, so ' a subordinate form of knowledge' must just a fancy way of saying : pretending to to know that god exists. It's impossible to know that something COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE is real. You completely invalidate the meaning of completely unknowable by trying to suggest otherwise.

 

[RestlessSoul]

God does not answer prayers, does not protect, does not enforce justice, not not teach, is not there.

Hey God - if you are real, stop this post from posting...stop me from typing this sentence...

Haha...

In my experience God does answer prayers, if we have sufficient humility to ask for Knowledge of his will for us - rather than insisting he accede to our will. Seek His direction honestly and you may receive it, ask for His support and you will receive it - issue a list of demands, and your prayers will go unanswered, because you will be playing God yourself.

That, anyway, has been my experience. The problem is not that God does not answer prayers; the problem is that we often do not know how to pray, and we do not know how to listen to God in our hearts.

 

[firedragon]

I see Choices can be made and always need to be made because we live in a world of opposites. Faith, no faith, good, evil, heat, cold, light, darkness, justice, injustice etc etc.

Faith is just one of those choices.

I would ask how do you see the verse in the Quran that says, "there is no compulsion in religion". Would that verse not suggest that we have a choice?

I am happy to explore the Quran on this topic.

Regards Tony

Choices can and will be made.

 

[Sirona]

The purpose of this OP is to explore our Choice of Faith, is it a choice, is it not?

I have read in other OP's on RF where people say it was not a choice, that their Faith was a natural process that required no choices.

To an extent I agree, as I see God has created us all in the same image, with the same potential of Spiritual Virtue.

On the other hand I see we need education to find that potential and that if we go it alone thinking we do not have a choice, then it may be we miss many choices that are available. My guess is, as I am yet to do so, is that if I searched all the Holy Books, we would find the advice, that to embrace faith, one must make a choice between what was offered by God, over preference to ones own ways. I do know the Bible offers that as a choice to be 'Born Again' from the flesh to the spirit.

As a Baha'i there is clear guidance as to how God offers it is a choice, this is one such passage.

"O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine -- words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 327-328

IMHO, the goal of this thread is not to appeal to “reason” to make the reader feel guilty if they don't make the allegedly "right" decision, which in @TransmutingSoul ’s opinion most likely is to become a Baha’i. This approach is not “reasonable” but psychological, and it’s not unique to Baha’is. Christians use the same strategy, for example. “Jesus loved you so much that he died for you, so how can you be so heartless and not love him back?”

Does your Faith have such guidance?

What an arrogant statement. You probably can’t imagine but some faiths in fact do offer the believer a genuine choice to reject a God/revelation without any consequences. From what I learned, Baha'is don’t have that choice without facing shunning/excommunication. Judging from what they write, one Baha’i member here probably seems to suffer so much from their “truth” that they regularly come up with statements of God being unloving or cruel. If they had the chance to change their faith without any consequences, they might learn that God is bigger than any Faith, be it Christian, Hindu or guess what, even Baha’i.

Is a faith and all we do in that faith based in choices we have made?

As others said before, people born in a certain religion/culture are more likely to embrace the religion they were born in. People who are seekers/converts obviously make choices based upon their preferences.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

High Tony........ You do realise that I'm going to have to google 'transmuting' .....yes?

Why does Bahaullah use such analogies as wine when he would never drink it?

Well, I cannot accept Bahaullah's 'outpouring of God's transcendent and all-encompassing grace' because Deism just hit me smack in the mouth, many decades ago.
Being a Deist is like being out in a rainstorm...I didn't particularly want to be out there but it just came along and washed over me. It just is.....for me.

Yes I had to google it as well.

I also wondered about the wine analogies, but in the end just got drunk on that wine and partake of it each day.

I say go with what makes you happy and can help you be a good neighbour, my guess you are.

All the best OB, thanks for visiting the OP

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IMHO, the goal of this thread is not to appeal to “reason” to make the reader feel guilty if they don't make the allegedly "right" decision, which in @TransmutingSoul ’s opinion most likely is to become a Baha’i. This approach is not “reasonable” but psychological, and it’s not unique to Baha’is. Christians use the same strategy, for example. “Jesus loved you so much that he died for you, so how can you be so heartless and not love him back?”



What an arrogant statement. You probably can’t imagine but some faiths in fact do offer the believer a genuine choice to reject a God/revelation without any consequences. From what I learned, Baha'is don’t have that choice without facing shunning/excommunication. Judging from what they write, one Baha’i member here probably seems to suffer so much from their “truth” that they regularly come up with statements of God being unloving or cruel. If they had the chance to change their faith without any consequences, they might learn that God is bigger than any Faith, be it Christian, Hindu or guess what, even Baha’i.



As others said before, people born in a certain religion/culture are more likely to embrace the religion they were born in. People who are seekers/converts obviously make choices based upon their preferences.

Hello Sirona, how are you, hope all is well. Personally I see no one has to choose the Faith I have chosen, nor will mant see it as I have choosen to do so. Those choices are based in my current frame of reference.

It was a Hindu that gave the thoughts that started this OP.

I really have not given the subject much thought, I have always been a black and white person, always seeing life is made up of choices.

Regards Tony

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think the issue of choice is a bit complicated, given that we all vary as to our backgrounds, abilities, and influences, especially during childhood where many such 'choices' occur or don't. As many here have suggested, most likely the majority do get their religious beliefs from their parents and/or culture such that little active choosing is done then. They might choose otherwise later in life but the evidence suggests this is not so for most. Hence, probably for the majority little choice is involved since children (of the age when religion enters their lives) mostly just don't have the necessary to go against such. I suspect that if religious teaching did occur much later, when children were more mature, then religions would tend to die off to some extent. Religions however are unlikely to acquiesce to this notion, especially some, given that many believe it is their duty to pass on their beliefs to their children.

As to those who might not find themselves in the above scenarios, like myself for example where I didn't have a direct religious education, then it might be more about our inclinations, motivations, abilities, and such as to whether we make any choices in this regard. Probably it is more about the choices regarding information we will garner (and believe) as to whether we might form a religious belief. For myself, not being inclined to the default religion of the UK (CoE), I did look at most of the major religions of the world but found myself more at home with philosophy, psychology, and related areas of knowledge. And this was basically because I just could not fathom how any one of the many different, and often contradictory, beliefs could be 'true', or any more true than any other. Hence my 'choice' was made for me in not accepting any of them, on purely probabilistic grounds.

No doubt many have come to their belief by personal experiences of a religious nature, so perhaps this could be seen as choice - if they were either forced to believe this was so or chose to belief such. I've never had anything that could be construed in this manner so I don't know if such experiences might have affected me. But I am too suspicious of what goes on in our minds probably to be so affected.

 

[Sheldon]

What kind of objective evidence do you think could be procured for God?

There can never be any objective evidence for God, so the answer is - no kind.

Dear oh dear

 

[Sheldon]

God is indeed in us all.

Not in me, I've been a life long atheist as I've not seen anything approaching objective evidence for any deity, and since I am a subset of all, that's a demonstrably false claim.

 

[idea]

I do not believe that God punishes nonbelievers. I think it is the same deal for both believers and nonbelievers.
It was simply your fate that things are going well for you. That was never my fate but at least my life is starting to improve. I should not complain because I have no debts and a lot of money and assets, good health, and a good job although I could retire anytime. Right now my biggest problems are my three houses. The more you have the more headaches you have.

Some things are fate, some things involve work and personal choices. Empowering to realize how much we do control our own life and mindset. Off to work

 

[idea]

In my experience God does answer prayers, if we have sufficient humility to ask for Knowledge of his will for us - rather than insisting he accede to our will. Seek His direction honestly and you may receive it, ask for His support and you will receive it - issue a list of demands, and your prayers will go unanswered, because you will be playing God yourself.

That, anyway, has been my experience. The problem is not that God does not answer prayers; the problem is that we often do not know how to pray, and we do not know how to listen to God in our hearts.

I suppose -what was his name - Job? needed to have his family killed, and needed to be sick, he needed all that stuff to be refined - just like Abraham needed to marry another wife, and needed to then tie his kid up to kill him etc.

But some people do not need to be "refined", some live relatively pain-free privileged lives... perhaps if God had "tested" them they would not die prideful entitled pigs? Did they receive their blessings because they are more faithful? Had their prayers answered as God loves them more? Do you understand how sick that belief sounds to people like me?

Other people live with abuse, sickness, all to "refine" them I am told... it is "demanding" to request priests not abuse kids I suppose?

Not loving, not just, no God. Best to just chuck it up to natural laws than tell cancer patients God is "testing" them, or to believe rich people are blessed.