Choosing a child's religion vs. a child's career

[Quintessence]

In other words, the situation is completely equal if the parents in question believe there is only one career worth pursuing.

No. Outside of mathematical statements (i.e. A=A), I would never say something is "completely equal" to something else. Only in mathematics would such a statement be true.

 

[Koldo]

No. Outside of mathematical statements (i.e. A=A), I would never say something is "completely equal" to something else. Only in mathematics would such a statement be true.

So much nitpicking...

 

[Ingledsva]

What I'm saying is that its not possible to not raise your children to some sort of belief, unbelief or disbelief. If you are Christian, you will naturally instill Christian values. If you are an atheist, it will be natural to you to encourage your children to question religion. I mean, how do you think this would work: parents bring home Christmas tree and tell their kids they're not getting presents until they are old enough to decide that they want to be Christian? It's just not practical.


ING -- That actually is funny. However, Trees and presents have nothing to do with Christianity.

Again: you're conflating concepts. These two things aren't equivalent. There's a big difference between "it's wrong to sell illegal drugs" and "we've decided that you're going to be a doctor."

Why is it wrong to sell drugs? Because you decided so? Because your society decided?


ING -- Yes it is as simple as that. The majority has decided it is wrong.


Maybe selling Charas in India is right for your child?


ING -- Obviously parents don't want their children doing things that will ultimately end with them in jail.


Maybe suicide is the right path for your child?


ING -- I happen to believe in some cases this is OK. I believe in the right to euthanasia.


It is you as a parent that is responsible to teach your child the things that you believe are important.


ING -- What if you are a skinhead? How about a member of Westboro Baptist? Sometimes what parents believe in - is WRONG!


That can mean teaching your child to be a productive member of society, to abstain from drug use, to strive for a career that will allow your child to live comfortable etc. etc. To parents of a religion, that also includes following their choice of religion.


ING -- You can't teach your children to be good, honest, giving members of Society, or perhaps even Spiritual, - without forcing your brand of religious belief on them?


Your child can always choose to sit and play video games all day while smoking pot and living off your income. Or to change his/her religious preferences. But that is for the child to decide when he/she comes of age. Until then, it is our job as parents to instill what we decide are the most important values in our children.[/QUOTE]


ING -- You can teach your kids to be great people without forcing your religion on them. They will automatically pick up your religious basics just from being around you.

One problem here, especially with Christianity, is that you use brain tactics. "Most" Christians condition their children to believe they will be tortured forever in Hell should they leave the religion. This is actually a form of brainwashing.



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[Ingledsva]

Fine. But how does one "get comfortable" with a Satanist?

Do you worship the devil? Or are you just playing with us?

Because if you do worship the devil then we agree there is a spirit world occupied by good spirits and evil spirits. And such curiosity is highly discouraged.

Would I want my son playing with Aleister Crowley's son? Would you?

I'm surprised Russell didn't answer this.


Most Satanists today don't believe in an actual Satan, - and of those few whom do, - most of them don't believe Satan is as modern Christianity portrays him.



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[Tumah]

But what if he believed that his child could only be happy by becoming an engineer?

Then he has a responsibility to encourage his child to become an engineer: by building toys when he is young or books about great works of engineering when he is older, etc.

What if you saw that your child enjoyed practicing christianism?

The same thing that would happen if I saw my child enjoying taking LSD.

 

[Tumah]

Why is it wrong to sell drugs? Because you decided so? Because your society decided?


ING -- Yes it is as simple as that. The majority has decided it is wrong.


Maybe selling Charas in India is right for your child?


ING -- Obviously parents don't want their children doing things that will ultimately end with them in jail.


Maybe suicide is the right path for your child?


ING -- I happen to believe in some cases this is OK. I believe in the right to euthanasia.


It is you as a parent that is responsible to teach your child the things that you believe are important.


ING -- What if you are a skinhead? How about a member of Westboro Baptist? Sometimes what parents believe in - is WRONG!


That can mean teaching your child to be a productive member of society, to abstain from drug use, to strive for a career that will allow your child to live comfortable etc. etc. To parents of a religion, that also includes following their choice of religion.


ING -- You can't teach your children to be good, honest, giving members of Society, or perhaps even Spiritual, - without forcing your brand of religious belief on them?


Your child can always choose to sit and play video games all day while smoking pot and living off your income. Or to change his/her religious preferences. But that is for the child to decide when he/she comes of age. Until then, it is our job as parents to instill what we decide are the most important values in our children.

ING -- You can teach your kids to be great people without forcing your religion on them. They will automatically pick up your religious basics just from being around you.

One problem here, especially with Christianity, is that you use brain tactics. "Most" Christians condition their children to believe they will be tortured forever in Hell should they leave the religion. This is actually a form of brainwashing.

All you've done here is list what you believe are important. For me, I add my religion as one of the things that are also important.

Also, I don't know why you are combining religion and being a good person. You don't need religion to be a good person and religion includes many other things than ethics or morals.

Also, I hope your implication that you would be comfortable with your child committing suicide was only intended for the shock factor.

 

[Thana]

One problem here, especially with Christianity, is that you use brain tactics. "Most" Christians condition their children to believe they will be tortured forever in Hell should they leave the religion. This is actually a form of brainwashing.

I've been told I tend to overreact and have a bit of temper when it comes to people bashing my faith, So I will not be saying what I really want to say.

I will ask you however,
If you have actually met 'most' Christians and asked them what they teached their kids.

And I will also ask you to please provide any evidence of mass amounts of Christian parents brainwashing their kids.

I mean you cannot present statements like that without proof.
Otherwise it just makes you seem prejudice and ignorant.

Thanks.

 

[Ingledsva]

I've been told I tend to overreact and have a bit of temper when it comes to people bashing my faith, So I will not be saying what I really want to say.

I will ask you however,
If you have actually met 'most' Christians and asked them what they teached their kids.

And I will also ask you to please provide any evidence of mass amounts of Christian parents brainwashing their kids.

I mean you cannot present statements like that without proof.
Otherwise it just makes you seem prejudice and ignorant.

Thanks.

Prejudice? I was raised Christian, from generations of Christians, from many denominations. The one thing they all had in common was the idea that theirs was the only true religion - and that leaving it, or going to any other religion, would result in Hellfire.

Are you really going to try to tell me that most Christian denominations don't teach this?

When you teach a child that they will go to Hell and be tortured forever if they leave your religion, - that is psychological brainwashing to insure their fear of rebellion.

Many ex-Christians HERE, have included this in their stories. That it took them so long to leave Christianity because of that entrenched fear of Hellfire.


SO - does your Christian religion teach that Christians are going to Heaven - and ALL OTHERS are going to Hell?



*

 

[Thana]

Prejudice? I was raised Christian, from generations of Christians, from many denominations. The one thing they all had in common was the idea that theirs was the only true religion - and that leaving it, or going to any other religion, would result in Hellfire.

Are you really going to try to tell me that most Christian denominations don't teach this?

When you teach a child that they will go to Hell and be tortured forever if they leave your religion, - that is psychological brainwashing to insure their fear of rebellion.

Many ex-Christians HERE, have included this in their stories. That it took them so long to leave Christianity because of that entrenched fear of Hellfire.


SO - does your Christian religion teach that Christians are going to Heaven - and ALL OTHERS are going to Hell?

Uh, I still don't see any of the sources that I asked for, Or a valid explanation as to why you think you can speak for most Christians?

 

[Ingledsva]

All you've done here is list what you believe are important. For me, I add my religion as one of the things that are also important.

Also, I don't know why you are combining religion and being a good person. You don't need religion to be a good person and religion includes many other things than ethics or morals.

Also, I hope your implication that you would be comfortable with your child committing suicide was only intended for the shock factor.

Actually in most of these I answered the questions you posed. In two I gave an opinion.


I am well aware your religion is important to you. You need to look at this from another angle. What if your religion you were imposing on your child was Satanism, and your child chose Christianity for themselves? The point people are trying to make is that the child should be well rounded, and then make religious decisions for themselves when old enough to actually understand the choices.

I am not combining religion with being a good person. What makes you think that?

Yes, in some cases, as stated, I would be comfortable with a child of mine committing suicide. I suggest you look up the meaning of euthanasia.



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[Ingledsva]

Uh, I still don't see any of the sources that I asked for, Or a valid explanation as to why you think you can speak for most Christians?

You know it is true - however - Here is something from Religion Facts.


Christian Doctrines of Hell - ReligionFacts


"According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly.

In Christian theology, hell is the place or state into which unrepentant sinners pass after this life. Hell is generally thought to be eternal, and to include both punishment (poena sensus) and separation from God (poena damni)."


"Hell was a strong incentive to lead a righteous life in the early church."


That is quite a psychological indoctrination of a nation!



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[Thana]

You know it is true - however - Here is something from Religion Facts.


Christian Doctrines of Hell - ReligionFacts


"According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly.

In Christian theology, hell is the place or state into which unrepentant sinners pass after this life. Hell is generally thought to be eternal, and to include both punishment (poena sensus) and separation from God (poena damni)."


"Hell was a strong incentive to lead a righteous life in the early church."


That is quite a psychological indoctrination of a nation!

Again, You did not provide any sources relevant to the topic or explain why you think you can speak for most Christians!

Give it another go, Third time's the charm.

 

[Ingledsva]

Originally Posted by Ingledsva View Post
You know it is true - however - Here is something from Religion Facts.


Christian Doctrines of Hell - ReligionFacts


"According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly.

In Christian theology, hell is the place or state into which unrepentant sinners pass after this life. Hell is generally thought to be eternal, and to include both punishment (poena sensus) and separation from God (poena damni)."


"Hell was a strong incentive to lead a righteous life in the early church."


That is quite a psychological indoctrination of a nation!

Again, You did not provide any sources relevant to the topic or explain why you think you can speak for most Christians!

Give it another go, Third time's the charm.

LOL! I suggest you look again!


This is the sentence you chose to question -

One problem here, especially with Christianity, is that you use brain tactics. "Most" Christians condition their children to believe they will be tortured forever in Hell should they leave the religion. This is actually a form of brainwashing.

This is what you said -

I've been told I tend to overreact and have a bit of temper when it comes to people bashing my faith, So I will not be saying what I really want to say.

I will ask you however,
If you have actually met 'most' Christians and asked them what they teached their kids.

And I will also ask you to please provide any evidence of mass amounts of Christian parents brainwashing their kids.

I mean you cannot present statements like that without proof.
Otherwise it just makes you seem prejudice and ignorant.

Thanks.

My first reply -

Prejudice? I was raised Christian, from generations of Christians, from many denominations. The one thing they all had in common was the idea that theirs was the only true religion - and that leaving it, or going to any other religion, would result in Hellfire.

Are you really going to try to tell me that most Christian denominations don't teach this?

When you teach a child that they will go to Hell and be tortured forever if they leave your religion, - that is psychological brainwashing to insure their fear of rebellion.

Many ex-Christians HERE, have included this in their stories. That it took them so long to leave Christianity because of that entrenched fear of Hellfire.


SO - does your Christian religion teach that Christians are going to Heaven - and ALL OTHERS are going to Hell?

My second reply -

You know it is true - however - Here is something from Religion Facts.


Christian Doctrines of Hell - ReligionFacts


"According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly.

In Christian theology, hell is the place or state into which unrepentant sinners pass after this life. Hell is generally thought to be eternal, and to include both punishment (poena sensus) and separation from God (poena damni)."


"Hell was a strong incentive to lead a righteous life in the early church."

That is quite a psychological indoctrination of a nation!

And I conclude with this -


Obviously what I answered with is relevant to the question and discussion.


The proof of indoctrination brainwashing is in the stats. Between 74% and 92% of Christians have been indoctrinated into Hellfire - and believe it.

You do not reach these numbers without Christian parents using this brainwashing indoctrination technique on their children.



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[Thana]

And I conclude with this -


Obviously what I answered with is relevant to the question and discussion.


The proof of indoctrination brainwashing is in the stats. Between 74% and 92% of Christians have been indoctrinated into Hellfire - and believe it.

You do not reach these numbers without Christian parents using this brainwashing indoctrination technique on their children.

A belief in hell does not constitute brainwashing,
Which is exactly what I asked you to provide evidence for, However you cannot, Because it is utter bs.

The link you provided is irrelevant unless you're theorizing, Which is exactly what you're doing.

Unfortunately, Assumptions are not facts.

 

[Tumah]

Actually in most of these I answered the questions you posed. In two I gave an opinion.


I am well aware your religion is important to you. You need to look at this from another angle. What if your religion you were imposing on your child was Satanism, and your child chose Christianity for themselves? The point people are trying to make is that the child should be well rounded, and then make religious decisions for themselves when old enough to actually understand the choices.

And what if LSD actually has some extremely potent medicinal quality that might have prevented your son from getting glaucoma when he turns 65? That is not the right approach.

Being well rounded does not mean giving my children cocaine in case that is the right lifestyle for them. It means teaching my children the right thing with an awareness of the rest.

I am not combining religion with being a good person. What makes you think that?

Something you said earlier about why does he need religion if he can be a good person without it. I don't remember the exact quote. It doesn't matter.

Yes, in some cases, as stated, I would be comfortable with a child of mine committing suicide. I suggest you look up the meaning of euthanasia.

I am familiar with assisted suicide. In context though, we were talking about life paths, not after some drawn out deadly illness.

 

[Koldo]

Then he has a responsibility to encourage his child to become an engineer: by building toys when he is young or books about great works of engineering when he is older, etc.

But would it be acceptable if he decided that his children would be engineers?

The same thing that would happen if I saw my child enjoying taking LSD.

What would happen if you saw your child enjoying taking LSD?

 

[Tumah]

But would it be acceptable if he decided that his children would be engineers?

In my view, it would be odd to choose a specific occupation for one's child. In my view, there is no difference between a child becoming an engineer or a mechanic as long as he is happy and productive. On the other hand, I would do my best to dissuade my child from choosing a career that may endanger his life. In my view, there is a difference between a child following my religion and another religion. Therefore I will do my best to dissuade my children from joining other religions.

So in a way, I am shaping my child's career path, just as I would be shaping his religious one.

What would happen if you saw your child enjoying taking LSD?

I don't know. My oldest is 5. But I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[Koldo]

In my view, it would be odd to choose a specific occupation for one's child. In my view, there is no difference between a child becoming an engineer or a mechanic as long as he is happy and productive. On the other hand, I would do my best to dissuade my child from choosing a career that may endanger his life. In my view, there is a difference between a child following my religion and another religion. Therefore I will do my best to dissuade my children from joining other religions.

So in a way, I am shaping my child's career path, just as I would be shaping his religious one.

You didn't really answer my question. You said that you would find it odd, but that is not a proper answer to my question.
Do you consider it to be acceptable for this father to decide his child will become an engineer? Yes or no?

I don't know. My oldest is 5. But I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be pretty.

Does this mean that you don't know how you would react if you found out that your child became a christian?

 

[Tumah]

You didn't really answer my question. You said that you would find it odd, but that is not a proper answer to my question.
Do you consider it to be acceptable for this father to decide his child will become an engineer? Yes or no?

I did answer your question, you just didn't like it because you want me to say something else.
I am not going to say that it is wrong to choose a child's occupation. In a different era of humanity, it was natural for the parents to do so. Today, it is no longer done. Therefore it would be odd and there is a strong likelihood that the child would eventually ignore it anyway once he is old enough. But I would not say it is morally wrong.

Does this mean that you don't know how you would react if you found out that your child became a christian?

I don't know how I would react, but it definitely wouldn't be pretty. I'm just joking. I don't know. I would ask my Rabbi the proper approach to dealing with it as there are other variables that may be at play: is s/he doing it as a way of lashing out at me, is s/he doing it for ideological reasons, is there a psychological issue, etc.

 

[Quintessence]

A belief in hell does not constitute brainwashing,
Which is exactly what I asked you to provide evidence for, However you cannot, Because it is utter bs.

The link you provided is irrelevant unless you're theorizing, Which is exactly what you're doing.

Unfortunately, Assumptions are not facts.

What you might want to point out here is that mere belief in hell doesn't properly convey what a person believes about hell. In fact, if you read the link Ingledsva posted to completion, it actually supports your position more than it does hers:

Modern Christian views of hell tend to emphasize its spiritual aspects over the notion of physical suffering or material fire. Hell is seen as a logical extension of the free will of mankind to reject God's gracious advances, even for eternity, and its punishment as a realization of one's mistake and the great remorse that would follow. Many modern Christians also question hell's eternality in favor of some form of universalism (all are saved in the end) or annihilationism (wicked souls are destroyed).

This pervasiveness of universalism - that strongly suggests Christian parents aren't teaching their kids the once popular hellfire and damnation cliché - is backed up by some research grounded in good methods and statistics. So what are they really teaching their kids? Unless we have some good survey data suggesting otherwise, it makes more sense to posit the universalist message that most actually believe in is making it into children's brains.