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christainity depends the bible being historic factural

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
FranklinMichael said:
Didn't Paul say though that if Christ was not raised then it was all for nothing?
Yes, but I think from memory it was Paul who addressed the early church saying, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (1Corinthians 12:27).

Since the early church was the "body of Christ", obviously if the body had not been raised then the sacrifice Jesus made was all for nothing if the church died with Him.

Actually all of 1Corinthians 12 is about another subject - dispersion of gifts among the members.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Actually all of 1Corinthians 12 is about another subject - dispersion of gifts among the members.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

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By gifts is meant the manifestation of the Spiritual Qualities of Christ in His Disciples. Hence, since these Spiritual qualities of Jesus raised in His Disciples, it is said that Christ was raised after His death.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Actually all of 1Corinthians 12 is about another subject - dispersion of gifts among the members.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
By gifts is meant the manifestation of the Spiritual Qualities of Christ in His Disciples. Hence, since these Spiritual qualities of Jesus raised in His Disciples, it is said that Christ was raised after His death.

That does NOT compute. :no:

In 1Co 11 we are told there is division among the church.
In 1Co 12 he tells them (the Gentiles) that they are now of one spirit with the church, and as members, all also have different gifts.

You are trying to equate a phrase that has nothing to do with the meaning of 1Co 12.

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
It is about the dispersion of spiritual gifts, however it does assert that the Christians are the "body of Christ".

In the sense of unity, - but not risen until after human death.

The idea being that the souls of followers of Jesus will not just lie in the grave, or worse, but rise.

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danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think in either case it is safe to say that to Paul, the risen Christ was not the physical body that was nailed to the cross.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Can you see yourself by a campfire and hearing of a woman who made love to a swan and bore its children? Or that a great turtle carried the world, or that from two pieces of wood came man? Or there once existed a man who was the son of the Gods who performed twelve labors of strength. Or a man whose only weakness was his heel??

And the OBVIOUS difference.....
We now know such manipulations....as described in Genesis......can be performed.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
And the OBVIOUS difference.....
We now know such manipulations....as described in Genesis......can be performed.

Except there was no cutting mentioned...also caesareans were also done...as we're amputations. Our knowledge just makes old practices safer.

The use if various forms of anesthetics have existed for millennia.

The cloning process would create another male...and given how cloning is done Genesis nothing like cloning

It also helps that it was done by a God.

So how would it be impossible?

Do you know rulers who claim to be descendants of Herakles? Alexander the Great for one. And look at his success.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Didn't Paul say though that if Christ was not raised then it was all for nothing?
Paul concentrated on the death of Christ because he didn't know him in life. Jesus saved people while he was still alive and didn't matter whether he was sacrificed or not. It is the forgiveness of god that saves those who believe, the atrocity of killing gods only son doesn't get someone saved.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That does NOT compute. :no:
In 1Co 11 we are told there is division among the church.
In 1Co 12 he tells them (the Gentiles) that they are now of one spirit with the church, and as members, all also have different gifts.

You are trying to equate a phrase that has nothing to do with the meaning of 1Co 12.

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What Paul is talking about, is about unity as you said it. But it's not merely about unity.

Let's refer to 1 Cor 12 again to see what Paul had in mind, when He called them Body of Christ.
All the following characteristics belonged to Christ, but now same powers and abilities are manifested among the Disciples:


12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues.


Hence, all these above attributes, such as wisdom, knowledge, gifts of healing, working of miracle, prophecy and knowing interpretation, which belonged to Jesus, had Manifested in His Disciples through the power of Spirit. Hence He said "You are the Body of Christ and His members" Meaning you as a whole are the Manifestation of Christ, that has risen after His crucifixion and you are able as a whole to do what He did.


Even as Paul claimed:

13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains....."

Note I am just saying what Paul meant, not to force you believe in His claims. So, to Paul raising Christ after Crucifixion meant, raising these Spiritual power and Attributes in His Disciples.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Christian faith is dependent upon the bible being a historic fact.
Not really, not even all Catholics take the bible to be 100% fact. There are premises to keep faith in but the premises vary from denomination to denomination.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Except there was no cutting mentioned...also caesareans were also done...as we're amputations. Our knowledge just makes old practices safer.

The use if various forms of anesthetics have existed for millennia.

The cloning process would create another male...and given how cloning is done Genesis nothing like cloning

It also helps that it was done by a God.

So how would it be impossible?

Do you know rulers who claim to be descendants of Herakles? Alexander the Great for one. And look at his success.

You're reaching.
And you're not looking at all I have said.
 

gzusfrk

Christian
Christian faith is dependent upon the bible being a historic fact.

1. Jesus was cruxified...and died for our sins
2. Jesus raised himself from the dead.
3. Jesus was deity

christianity cannot be a philosophy like budism...because christianity
depends upon that Jesus dying on the cross and raising himself from the dead is
a historic fact.

Christianity arguements start with biblical archaeology. Historian research of ancient document (where ordinary people do not read material of this kind).
No, we depend on it being alive.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Let's refer to 1 Cor 12 again to see what Paul had in mind, when He called them Body of Christ.

All the following characteristics belonged to Christ, but now same powers and abilities are manifested among the Disciples:
12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues.
Hence, all these above attributes, such as wisdom, knowledge, gifts of healing, working of miracle, prophecy and knowing interpretation, which belonged to Jesus, had Manifested in His Disciples through the power of Spirit. Hence He said "You are the Body of Christ and His members" Meaning you as a whole are the Manifestation of Christ, that has risen after His crucifixion and you are able as a whole to do what He did.
Even as Paul claimed:
13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains....."

Note I am just saying what Paul meant, not to force you believe in His claims. So, to Paul raising Christ after Crucifixion meant, raising these Spiritual power and Attributes in His Disciples.

The parts in red are not correct. According to the story they had gifts before he died.

it is literally talking about the body here - meaning the group,

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

It is talking about problems amongst the groups, and reminds them they are one in Christ - as believers. And to stop squabbling over the meaning of different gifts given to some. The story says they had power before his death.

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

As to the meaning of Jesus, and after him, everyone else among his followers - raising -

1Col 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

PS. I don't believe in any of the Abrahamic religion.



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FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
You're reaching.
And you're not looking at all I have said.

Only because your comment had already moved beyond the normal reach of the story.

Attempting to make a myth fit with current scientific knowledge...but wait you have an IQ of 125 so you must be right....
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The parts in red are not correct. According to the story they had gifts before he died.

I am not so sure if the Disciples of Jesus were given the Spiritual gifts as mentioned in 1 Cor. Before His Crucifixion.
Unless you want to show some verses to support this.


it is literally talking about the body here - meaning the group,....
I think it is reasonable to say, it is not literal, but metaphoric.


As to the meaning of Jesus, and after him, everyone else among his followers - raising -

1Col 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

It would be everyone more or less among His followers. Meaning those Christians during the period of dispensation of Jesus were more or less raised to life of Spirit (Spiritual Body)

PS. I don't believe in any of the Abrahamic religion.

ok.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I am not so sure if the Disciples of Jesus were given the Spiritual gifts as mentioned in 1 Cor. Before His Crucifixion.
Unless you want to show some verses to support this.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

He told them they could do what he did.
He also told his disciples they could tell a mountain to move – and it would move.

Ingledsva said:
it is literally talking about the body here - meaning the group,....
I think it is reasonable to say, it is not literal, but metaphoric.

It is not metaphoric. It is a letter sent because he heard they were having problems.

To one is given prophecy - to one tongues - etc.

Ingledsva said:
As to the meaning of Jesus, and after him, everyone else among his followers - raising -

1Col 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
It would be everyone more or less among His followers. Meaning those Christians during the period of dispensation of Jesus were more or less raised to life of Spirit (Spiritual Body)

It very specifically says - "with the resurrection of the dead."

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
To me the big issue is that how would Christians cope with knowing that the resurrection of Jesus was not real.

No matter how much of the Bible they place aside as myth there is the ever hanging fact that Jesus most likely never even existed.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
To me the big issue is that how would Christians cope with knowing that the resurrection of Jesus was not real.

No matter how much of the Bible they place aside as myth there is the ever hanging fact that Jesus most likely never even existed.

And even if he did, he was probably just a man trying to fulfill the Messiah prophecies, so as to help his people out from under the Roman yoke.

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