christainity depends the bible being historic factural

[Thief]

And even if he did, he was probably just a man trying to fulfill the Messiah prophecies, so as to help his people out from under the Roman yoke.

*

There is where I parted company with Christian doctrine.

The Jews saw in Him the potential of a Messiah.
He could heal the sick, restore the wounded, feed thousands.....
what army could fail under Him?

In a large crowd He heard them saying as much.....that they might seek to crown His head.
He left the scene.

And with every occasion as such a potential was offered...He turned away.

He said....the kingdom is not of this world.

The people heard this with disappointment.
The Pharisees heard this as contrary to prophecy....He then, a false prophet.
His followers did not understand.
He told them they did not.

Did He teach to free His people from Rome?.......nay.
He taught them the way to heaven.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

He told them they could do what he did.
He also told his disciples they could tell a mountain to move – and it would move.

Yes, you were right.
Though these gifts may not be all the ones listed in 1 Cor 12

We should make a conclusion based on the whole context which starts from 1 Cori 12:1, therefore my point still holds with regards to the fact that being in unity is not the main condition of being a part of Body of Christ, but having the same attributes does, and the Message that 1 Cor 12 is giving in regards to the definition of the term "Body of Christ" starts with verese 12:1, and not just the last part that talks about unity.
There has been many Priests who even did child abuse, or pops who killed many, and they called themselves Christians, and also believe in Jesus as they said. That certainly does not make them part of Body of Christ.

But The Disciples were troubled when the Christ was Crucified. After Three Days, they rose again to proclaim the cause of Christ and to Manifest those spiritual gifts to others, hence these who were the Body of Christ were as Dead for Three Days, as they were troubled and inactive. Once they rose on the Third Day, it is said, the Body of Christ is Raised. "Yea are the Body of Christ and His members" defines the Metaphoric meaning of raising after Christ was dead.

It is not metaphoric. It is a letter sent because he heard they were having problems.

To one is given prophecy - to one tongues - etc.




It very specifically says - "with the resurrection of the dead."

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Those letters contain many of the same and similar Metaphors.

“Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.” Romans 6:13
“even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ” Ephesians 2:5
“For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.” Luke 15:24

 

[sojourner]

To me the big issue is that how would Christians cope with knowing that the resurrection of Jesus was not real.

No matter how much of the Bible they place aside as myth there is the ever hanging fact that Jesus most likely never even existed.

I think the fact is that Jesus most likely did exist.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Christian faith is dependent upon the bible being a historic fact.

1. Jesus was cruxified...and died for our sins
2. Jesus raised himself from the dead.
3. Jesus was deity

Just descriptively, this is clearly false; plenty of Christians are Christians but nevertheless hold that most of what is recounted in the Bible is not factual or meant to be taken literally. Most respected Christian writers these days hold something to this effect- hard to be taken seriously if one claims that God in fact created the cosmos exactly as Gen 1 narrates...

On the other hand, there is a point at which non-literal interpretations of Christianity run into something of an identity crisis; if it is held that the miracles, resurrection, and all the other fantastical events of Christ's life never happened, in what sense is Christ God? And if Christ is not in any clear sense God, why is he worshiped? And even worse, if one does not hold that the existence of God is an objective matter of fact, in what sense is one a theist much less a Christian at all? This forms sort of a fork or dilemma for Christianity; orthodox Christianity isn't especially tenable anymore, in light of all that's known about the early development of the cosmos, the evolution of species, and so on- but on the other side, once one starts conceding the literal truth of various Christian teachings, one runs into this identify crisis, and appears to lose the connection with historical Christianity and puts in question the very status of being a Christian at all...

 

[idav]

Just descriptively, this is clearly false; plenty of Christians are Christians but nevertheless hold that most of what is recounted in the Bible is not factual or meant to be taken literally. Most respected Christian writers these days hold something to this effect- hard to be taken seriously if one claims that God in fact created the cosmos exactly as Gen 1 narrates...

On the other hand, there is a point at which non-literal interpretations of Christianity run into something of an identity crisis; if it is held that the miracles, resurrection, and all the other fantastical events of Christ's life never happened, in what sense is Christ God? And if Christ is not in any clear sense God, why is he worshiped? And even worse, if one does not hold that the existence of God is an objective matter of fact, in what sense is one a theist much less a Christian at all? This forms sort of a fork or dilemma for Christianity; orthodox Christianity isn't especially tenable anymore, in light of all that's known about the early development of the cosmos, the evolution of species, and so on- but on the other side, once one starts conceding the literal truth of various Christian teachings, one runs into this identify crisis, and appears to lose the connection with historical Christianity and puts in question the very status of being a Christian at all...

Jesus doesn't need to be worshipped to be a Christian. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of saying he was God he objected and essentially said we are all gods, all sons of the most high.

John 10
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]?

Psalm 82
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

 

[Ingledsva]

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

He told them they could do what he did.
He also told his disciples they could tell a mountain to move – and it would move.

Yes, you were right.

Though these gifts may not be all the ones listed in 1 Cor 12

Right - they were told they could heal, raise the dead, and move mountains - but somehow they didn't have teaching gifts, or gifts of language, etc? I don't think so.

We should make a conclusion based on the whole context which starts from 1 Cori 12:1, therefore my point still holds with regards to the fact that being in unity is not the main condition of being a part of Body of Christ, but having the same attributes does, and the Message that 1 Cor 12 is giving in regards to the definition of the term "Body of Christ" starts with verese 12:1, and not just the last part that talks about unity.

There has been many Priests who even did child abuse, or pops who killed many, and they called themselves Christians, and also believe in Jesus as they said. That certainly does not make them part of Body of Christ.

But The Disciples were troubled when the Christ was Crucified. After Three Days, they rose again to proclaim the cause of Christ and to Manifest those spiritual gifts to others, hence these who were the Body of Christ were as Dead for Three Days, as they were troubled and inactive. Once they rose on the Third Day, it is said, the Body of Christ is Raised. "Yea are the Body of Christ and His members" defines the Metaphoric meaning of raising after Christ was dead.

No it doesn't. You are reading into it what it doesn't say. Again - it tells us this is about problems in the groups he is writing to.

1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For also heresies/differences need to be among you, so that the approved ones may become revealed among you.
*
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 To all are given the expressions of the spirit/Holy Ghost for all to contribute.
It is very obvious what they are talking about, - and As to the meaning of Jesus, and after him, everyone else among his followers - raising -

1Col 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

*

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Those letters contain many of the same and similar Metaphors.

“Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.” Romans 6:13
“even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ” Ephesians 2:5
“For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.” Luke 15:24

Interesting that you left off the end of Ephesians 2:5 - which tells us it is talking about "Grace."
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace you are saved.

Luke has nothing to do with what we are discussing. He was dead to his father and now is alive/returned.

Romans tells us it is about sin and grace -
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

There is where I parted company with Christian doctrine.

The Jews saw in Him the potential of a Messiah.
He could heal the sick, restore the wounded, feed thousands.....
what army could fail under Him?

In a large crowd He heard them saying as much.....that they might seek to crown His head.
He left the scene.

And with every occasion as such a potential was offered...He turned away.

He said....the kingdom is not of this world.

The people heard this with disappointment.
The Pharisees heard this as contrary to prophecy....He then, a false prophet.
His followers did not understand.
He told them they did not.

Did He teach to free His people from Rome?.......nay.
He taught them the way to heaven.

All we have are the official texts - we don't know what all he taught (if he was real.)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Right - they were told they could heal, raise the dead, and move mountains - but somehow they didn't have teaching gifts, or gifts of language, etc? I don't think so.



No it doesn't. You are reading into it what it doesn't say. Again - it tells us this is about problems in the groups he is writing to.

1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For also heresies/differences need to be among you, so that the approved ones may become revealed among you.
*
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 To all are given the expressions of the spirit/Holy Ghost for all to contribute.
It is very obvious what they are talking about, - and As to the meaning of Jesus, and after him, everyone else among his followers - raising -

1Col 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

*

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


[/FONT]

Interesting that you left off the end of Ephesians 2:5 - which tells us it is talking about "Grace."
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace you are saved.

Luke has nothing to do with what we are discussing. He was dead to his father and now is alive/returned.

Romans tells us it is about sin and grace -
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

*

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here??
What is it you disagree?

 

[Thief]

All we have are the official texts - we don't know what all he taught (if he was real.)

Hedging to the notion that the church omitted ...'some things'...?

I might agree to that.

But that He would lead revolt against the Romans?.....nay
He never wanted a crown on His head.

 

[Ingledsva]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here??
What is it you disagree?

I said-

Maybe those later people that wrote the gospels misunderstood Jesus' teachings, and embellished what they though it meant.

He taught that all were "dead" and had to be "raised."

Belief in his teaching is supposedly the dividing line between death and "life."
He is the first to "rise."
So we next have the story of him going down to the graves to teach those already in the grave, so they can "rise." Then we have the story of graves opening and the dead "rise."
I think they misunderstood something meant to be spiritual, happening in the "other" world, and turned it into a witness story.

Somewhere along the way you argued -

By gifts is meant the manifestation of the Spiritual Qualities of Christ in His Disciples.Hence, since these Spiritual qualities of Jesus raised in His Disciples, it is said that Christ was raised after His death.

I showed that is not correct.

"In the story" the disciples are already under grace and have powers. In all of these verses the only "rising" is after death - with Jesus being the "first" to rise, and all believers to follow - at their human deaths.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Hedging to the notion that the church omitted ...'some things'...?

I might agree to that.

But that He would lead revolt against the Romans?.....nay
He never wanted a crown on His head.

We don't have the words of Jesus. We have what later writers say he said; - and we also have books saying things they don't like - being tossed. - Some of them after they accepted them and put them in the finished Bible.

Plus if you look into the ideas behind the awaited Hebrew Messiah - you will find the Spiritual/religious, and the warrior.

*

 

[Thief]

We don't have the words of Jesus. We have what later writers say he said; - and we also have books saying things they don't like - being tossed. - Some of them after they accepted them and put them in the finished Bible.

Plus if you look into the ideas behind the awaited Hebrew Messiah - you will find the Spiritual/religious, and the warrior.

*

Well.....we have what we DO have.
And the state of speech as is.....
He never wanted a crown on His head.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I showed that is not correct.

You did not show me that is incorrect. You gave me your own interpretation.

"In the story" the disciples are already under grace and have powers. In all of these verses the only "rising" is after death - with Jesus being the "first" to rise, and all believers to follow - at their human deaths.

*

There are Three Topics here to discuss.

1. The Resurrection of Christ: By this is meant, the Disciples of Jesus who symbolically represented the Body of Christ, and rose on the Third day.
This is reconciled with the verse that says: "You are now the Body of Christ"

Note that according to the authors of Bible, Resurrection of Christ is Figurative. It is not a physical fact as generally understood.
It is written in Bible, chapter of John, when Jesus was speaking to His disciples, He said:

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them." John 14

We have to ask ourselves, did Jesus mean literally and physically He and Father will come?
It is reasonable to say, No, He did not mean literally, but as He said He was speaking Figuratively. In Continuation of His speach Jesus said:

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father" John 16

After Jesus was crucified, the Disciples said that they saw Jesus came to their home.
We have to ask ourselves, did the Author of Bible mean, Jesus came literally or Figuratively?

A consistent interpretation with other verses of Bible, would reveal, they were speaking Figuratively. Specially, when they hinted:
"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"" John 20:19

It is worthy to note that, they alluded in this verse that Jesus came in with "the Doors Locked"
Clearly, means that Jesus did not come in their home literally, but they are speaking with a Figurative story.
Now, what they meant, by Jesus Resurrection, is that the Cause of Jesus, and His attributes were raised, and Manifested among His Disciples. This is farther confirmed with What the Bible says:
"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular" 1 Corinthians 12:27


2. The Resurrection of the dead in sin (Those spiritually dead who were raised to the life of belief.

Some example of this is given in my previous post.


3. The Prophecy of a later Resurrection. Which have come to pass through Baha'i Revelation.

This is reconciled with Baha'i scriptures:

"Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Baha'u'llah

 

[Ingledsva]

We don't have the words of Jesus. We have what later writers say he said; - and we also have books saying things they don't like - being tossed. - Some of them after they accepted them and put them in the finished Bible.

Plus if you look into the ideas behind the awaited Hebrew Messiah - you will find the Spiritual/religious, and the warrior.

Well.....we have what we DO have.
And the state of speech as is.....
He never wanted a crown on His head.

As I said the Hebrew writing have him as also a warrior.

In addition he is called King of Kings.

Interestingly, we also have this -

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that one foretold that should come into the world.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

They decided he was the prophesized Messiah, and wanted to make him a King.

.

 

[danieldemol]

As I said the Hebrew writing have him as also a warrior.

First of all it makes sense to understand whether Jesus was a literalist or not.

Do you believe that if Jesus existed He was a literalist?

In addition he is called King of Kings.

Interestingly, we also have this -

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that one foretold that should come into the world.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

They decided he was the prophesized Messiah, and wanted to make him a King.

They wanted to make Him a king in accordance with their own literalism driven by desire for temporal power to which He disagreed. Why would they have to "force" Him to be a king if that was His own desire?

 

[nash8]

I was about to say, you just quoted Bible verses that made Daniels point for him lol.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Jesus doesn't need to be worshipped to be a Christian. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of saying he was God he objected and essentially said we are all gods, all sons of the most high.

Regardless of whether we choose to accept this passage, or the passages which suggest the exact opposite (and there is no poverty here), the fact remains that Christ had a fairly exalted conception of himself, and more importantly that if one regards Christ as being merely a great moral teacher or political revolutionary or some such thing, they appear to be facing the "identity crisis" I mentioned; it isn't obvious in what sense one is a Christian any longer.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

They wanted to make Him a king in accordance with their own literalism driven by desire for temporal power to which He disagreed. Why would they have to "force" Him to be a king if that was His own desire?

I didn't say it was his desire. They were expecting a Sacred King & Warrior King.

The verses show that what I said was correct. - The Hebrew Messiah was seen as Spiritual King and Warrior King.

And don't forget he IS called KING by his followers.

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

You have to remember - when they came to make him King - he headed for the hills - but he also came back down - and continued the journey of a Sacred King to his Death.



.

 

[gilligan8914]

No quote from Mark, the earliest gospel? In Mark, no virgin birth and no ressurection. Is not Mark history and factual? If it is, there was no virgin birth and no ressurection.

 

[danieldemol]

I didn't say it was his desire. They were expecting a Sacred King & Warrior King.

The verses show that what I said was correct. - The Hebrew Messiah was seen as Spiritual King and Warrior King.

Let's see if we can piece together what we agree on and clarify what we disagree on;

They were expecting a Sacred King & Warrior King.

First of all I agree with what the Jews were expecting as you have described it here, I think we completely agree on what the Jews expected.

As I understand it you are making 2 points.

1. Jesus is a sacred (ie spiritual?) King.
I think we are basically agreed on this if I understand your first point.

2. Jesus is a warrior (King).
Now where I understand that we disagree is that you say (assuming I read your statement correctly) Jesus was a literal warrior, such that He would carry a metal sword, and use it to cut people in battle.

I agree that Jesus is a warrior, but not a literal warrior, for the battles Jesus engaged in where the battles of wisdom and utterance, and His sword, the sharp words of His tongue whith which He divided the faithful from the unfaithful. He was a spiritual warrior.

Consider the psalms for example;
(Psalms 57:3-4) "God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.

My soul is among lions: and I lie even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword."

This was my point with regard to Jesus not being a literalist, the Gospel does not indicate that Jesus agreed with Jewish literalist expectations regarding a warrior.

(Ephesians 6:17) "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God"

(John 18:10-11) "Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath"

Obviously a literal warrior would not be instructing His followers to pack away physical weapons at the approach of the enemy.