Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation

[michel]

His father's house is just what he uses to describe that general place where people go after the millenium, when people are given their rewards.

As I see it, God has broken time up into 7 Dispensations:

Innocence ... Conscience ... Human Government ... Promise ... Law ... Grace ... Kingdom

Each dispensation starts with a set of rules that God wants us to adhere to.

Each dispensation fails and ends in a specific judgement of God.

Currently, we are in the 6th Dispensation ... Grace ... which started when the veil of the Temple was rent in twain ... and will end with the Tribulation.

I said all that to say this:

The dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom will end at what is called the Great White Throne Judgement. That is where the unsaved will stand before Christ and be consigned to the Lake of Fire.

We Christians, who will be Raptured before the Tribulation, will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ, or, as some like to call it, the Bema Seat Judgement.

 

[Aqualung]

You miss the point entirely. I know not one Christian who would not have himself baptized as Jesus commanded. The issue isn't whether baptism is necessary or not, but whether it has anything to do with any human priesthood.

Yeah, I realised that after I had read your post again. :bonk: But people need authority to baptise. Jesus never said that just anybody could baptise people. He only gave that to vertain people.

Jesus was without sin, so his baptism must have been for a different reason than anybody else's

It was for the same reason. It was to fulfill all righteousness. We can't even get close to fulfilling all rgihteousness if we don't get baptised. (also, his baptism was to show us what we need to do to return to live with our father in heaven.)

and it can be done very validly and with just as much authority as John the baptist had

And what authority was that? The aaronic priesthood that he held.

Now I ask you, does this baptism refer to all people - are everyone baptised into Christ's death and will everyone "live a new life"? Will everyone escape condemnation and the second death?

Not those who have the name of the devil on their forhead, but for the most part, everyone will, at some time or another, choose to be baptised.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Psalm 40:7 = THEN SAID I [Jesus], LO, I COME: IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME.

Hebrews 10:7 = THEN SAID I, LO, I COME...TO DO THY WILL, O GOD.

John 1:29 = THE NEXT DAY JOHN SEETH JESUS COMING UNTO HIM, AND SAITH, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD, WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

Brother I was asking when did Jesus ever say these things about himself during his ministry. Where in the scriptures in the red letter section of my bible which is to my understanding his words did he say these things.

{Quote=av1611]Genesis 22:8 = AND ABRAHAM SAID, MY SON, GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF A LAMB...(Note the play on words.)[/QUOTE] The Sestigens state in the bottom notes that Abraham is talking about his son his birth son and not Jesus.

He's talking about animal sacrifices here. He'd rather have mercy than a sacrifice. In other words, it's better not to do something bad, than to do it and be forgiven.

That is not very clear and he does not clearly say animal sacrifice. When it is a known historical fact in that time certain Gnostic religions offered human as well as animal sacrifices. It is a general statement and can not be implied. Let us not try to leave the context of the phrase.

John 17:2 = AND THOU HAST GIVEN HIM POWER OVER ALL FLESH, THAT HE SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM.

Again these are not Jesus's words where did he make these statements because I can not find them in my bible.

 

[Green Gaia]

REMINDER:

Only the members of the religion listed in the title of the thread are allowed to debate in a thread in the Same Faith Debates Forum.
If you are not of that religion, please start a new thread in General Religious Debates.

It would be helpful to know what religion you are if you would list your religion in your profile.
This would avoid much confusion.

Thank you.​

Was this not clear enough? Do not make me issue warnings for something so trivial. :149:

 

[Aqualung]

Was this not clear enough? Do not make me issue warnings for something so trivial. :149:

:biglaugh: He probably just didn't see it. Mujahid - I set up a thread in discuss individual beleifs --> abrahamic beleifs --> christianity --> Christianity in general.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

God did in Psalm 12:6-7. To refine silver, you heat it until it turns liquid, then all the impurities rise to the top, and are sloughed off. The "impurities" of the 14 books of the Apocrypha were sloughed off.

Again where did Jesus or God ever give them permission to alter the word when Jesus states that no tone jot or one tittle shall in no wise be removed from the law till all be fulfilled.

Technically, the first son was Ishmael, born to Hagar and Abram in Genesis 16; but God changed Abram's name to Abraham in Genesis 17, and it was through Sarah and Abraham that Isaac was born.

How can it be technically, he either is or he isn't the firstborn son but the bible states that Isaac was the only son in Genesis 22:2 but how can he be the only son you have to be first born is this not correct

The covenant was made with Isaac - (Genesis 17:19).

But the bible says the covenant is with the first born Genesis 17:10-14 in terms of the circumcision

I don't see that in that verse, nor am I familiar with the Holy Ghost riding a camel.

I am refering to the prophecy given by Isaiah about the riders my Christian brethern tell me the one riding the *** in Jesus. Now who is the one riding the camel. The one who according to the Christians comes after Jesus is the Holy Ghost and I ask when did he ever ride a camel. Now if my Christian brothers are wrong please inform me so I may inform them. Also you must know it is the major opinion of the Christian scholars(setugins0

There are none. A contradiction is only a contradiction if one statement proves the other statement false. Otherwise, it's called a paradox.

Isn't it true the statement that Isaac is the only son a contradiction because inorder to be the only son you must be the first born. And I am sorry there are many contradictions in the bible. Otherwise you as Christians would all agree to what is contained in the bible.

Various men wrote it over a period of time, but God superintended the work. He Himself calls it the Word of God, not the Words of Men.

But if God superintended it why are all the manuscripts different why could not inspire the same words from all these men. Did he not have control over their pens.
Give me the verse where God states the bible is the Word of God.

Protestants protested against various writs of the Catholic Church. They had their "days in court" so to speak, and exist today only in name.

Their bible is not inspired by God. Neither is my King James Bible. Inspiration, per se, ended in 96 AD.

So if the protestants according to your statement were not inspired after 96. ad and the oldest known scriptures are dated to 350 years after Jesus how do Christians today write these bibles ie. KJV,NWT,NLB,NKJ,DV,RV if the scriptures are based of stuff that as you said is not inspired date wise

Every man IS accountable for his own sins; but Jesus took the penalty upon Himself willingly. Technically it is known as the Vicarious Sacrifice.

Where does Jesus say in the bible that he is going to die for our sins.

He is the only son of Abraham and Sarah. Ishmael was from Abram and Hagar.

The verse does not state thine only son of Abraham and Sarah it says thine only son speaking to Abraham

He didn't. Joshua tacked it on as an epilogue.

My bible says and I quote " the testimony of both the Jewish community and the Christian church throughtout history has been that Moses wrote the Book of Exodus.pg 100 kjv study guide version. Is my bible lying to me.

That was his (and Luke's) own personal style of writing.

If I write a story and autobiography perhaps it is always in first person. No one who claims authorship of something writes in third person unless someone else is writing it for him. When other people in the bible write things that claim ownership they never use third person. Likewise if Mathew wrote Mathew then in 9:9 of Mathew who wrote this for him and why does he not give credit to the author

Satan is a great imitator. He will actually convince people that he is god during the Tribulation.[/QUOTE]
How can he imitate a story from someone who came 10,000 years before Christ it is the opposite since the story of Horus, Osiris, and many other people came before this one in time. It is only logical to say that this story imitates them since they precede Jesus

 

[michel]

Again where did Jesus or God ever give them permission to alter the word when Jesus states that no tone jot or one tittle shall in no wise be removed from the law till all be fulfilled.

Let's take this to the thread mentioned in Post 65, and we'll talk more after work tonight. Okay?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Was this not clear enough? Do not make me issue warnings for something so trivial. :149:

I sincerely apologize I am new to this forum I signed up a while back and am still trying to learn everything. I honestly did not see that but now I know and I will follow in accordance to the rules if some one could instruct me on possibley started a thread myself I will. Again please forgive me and Insha Allah I will try a start fresh with my own thread and I wish you could have one called Religious Discussion debate sounds to much like confrontion but anyways I look forward to remaining with you guy and I will move on to the next post

Thanks again,

May you and Allah forgive me for my error

 

[Katzpur]

When did Jesus ever say he was to die as the plan of salvation or he was the sacrificial Lamb and what I mean is not that he spoke on behalf of God but I mean if God is the author of salvation and the only savior as stated in Isaiah 43:10 how can people say Jesus is the author of confusion. And why does God need a sacrifice as he states in Hosea 6:6 that he does not. When does He, Jesus say God gave him through his sacrifice the power of salvation.

As for the questions:

Why was the original King James which was published in 1611 which according to most Christians is the inspired word of God have 80 books and then in 1885 the Bishop of Canteburry took those books out leaving only 66. Who gave him the authority to change God's word?

Which son of Abraham was born first and who was the covenant made with?

When did the Holy Ghost ever ride a camel? Isaiah 21:7?

Why are there so many contradictions in the bible? In terms of places occurences which are supposed to be significant in terms of dogma.

Who wrote the bible or compiled all the books?

Why did it take Protestants 1500 years to disect from Catholics and when they did where the 73 books they have in their bible not inspired by God correctly?

Why would an innocent man die for the sins of the guilty when the bible say in Ezichiel 23 that every man is accountable for his own sins.

How can Isaac be the only son?

Did Matthew write Matthew and did Moses write the first 5 books and if he did how did he write his own obituary and why are these books in third person?

Why is the Egyptian Sun God Osiris story the same as Jesus?

Why historically is the Creation of Christianity credited to Emperor Constantine who was a sun worshipper?

Why is God's name not listed as the father of Jesus in the two Geneologies of Jesus and why do they contradict each other. And how can a man who only Father according to Christians was God you have 66 other guys listed as a part of his Geneology?

Why does Paul, who was a Gentile, contradict the teaches of Jesus by say ing all those under the law are under a curse?

Why when God says he does not give prophethood to sinners do prophets such as Lot and Noah and others commit sins such as incest and adultery

Is God Eternal and All powerful and if he is why do Christians say he rested after creating the heavens and the earth.

Why are the oldest known manuscripts which are in Latin and Greek dated 300 years after Jesus and some of the people who are responsible never met him and no documentation is taken from any of his disciples.

Why is the Gospel of Barnabus which is a historical archaelogical find not accepted by Christians when the scrolls were found buried with him and they are written in the original language that Jesus spoke and the Jesus testifies of him being a man of God and to recieve him when he comes to you not accepted by the church.

Why is the common man not allowed to see these manuscripts that the Vatican used to create the bible so we would be able to check to see if there translations are correct.

Why do some Christians believe in a trinity and some believe Jesus is just the son of God and some belief Jesus is God and they all reading the same book. How come they can not agree and the texts keep changing from year to year author to author. Why are verses taken out and added in?

If there are contradictions can the bible be 100% absolutely the true word of God. And do not lies cause confusion and we all know who is the author of that.

These are some of the 100's maybe 1000's of questions. If you would like me to go through all the contradictions I can

Thanks for your help and if you can not answer them ask your teachers in religion maybe they can shed light on it for me so we can both find out these answers together

Mujahid,

I'm sorry, but I couldn't even begin to respond to so many questions with any degree of completeness. It obviously took you only a matter of seconds to type out each of these questions. I would take me anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to respond to each one. Besides, several of them could only be answered by a Catholic or Protestant, and I am neither one. If you would like to discuss them one at a time, why don't you begin with the one you believe is most important and, if I know the answer, I'll be happy to share it with you.

Kathryn

 

[joeboonda]

To me, I see many religions that are called Christian, yet they all have one common error. They try to add something we do to what He has already done for us. In Romans 5, salvation is called a gift or free gift several times in verses 16-18. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by GRACE, which is undeserved, unmerited favor, through faith, UNTO good works. The pattern set up is that we hear the good news, we believe it, and we accept the free gift, baptism and good works following as a result. We are, at the moment we believe(John 5:24), made new creatures(II Cor. 5:17) and adopted into God's family as children of light(Romans 8:15, I Thessalonians 5:5). We have ALL been baptized by one spirit into the body of Christ (I Cor. 12:13).

To add anything else we do besides accepting the free gift by believing in, or trusting in what God's word says Jesus did for us on the cross, his blood shed for remission of our sins, makes our salvation of 'works' and thus we could 'boast'. But we are saved by grace through faith LEST any man should boast. Note in verse 10 we are saved UNTO good works, that is, now that Christ is living in us, through the Holy Spirit, and we are new creatures, the works will follow as a result of our salvation, not the cause. That's why James says...You SAY you have faith...well I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Thus a faith without works is not faith. Man judges the outside, and may see our works but God knows the heart, only he knows who truly places their trust in Christ.

To add membership to a particular church, our good works, or our keeping of certain rituals, sacraments, or of us 'holding out faithful' (its the preservation of the saints, not the perseverence), (God keeps us, not the other way around), to simple acceptance, or believing in, or on, or trusting in or on what Christ had done, as HE paid the way, He is Holy, He is Our Redeemer, He is Lord of Lord and King of Kings, Haleluia, Praise His Wonderful Name!!! Praise the Lord, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Our Advocate, The Propitiation for our sins, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD, Glory to his name! Amen and Amen. And add ANYTHING we do is a false doctrine and grave error! All Glory, ALL Power MUST go to him and him alone, nothing to us!

Religion is this: man earning his way to heaven. Impossible. Christianity is this: God giving salvation as a TOTALY FREE GIFT!!! Beware that you are not 'self-righteous' trying to ADD to his work on the cross ANYTHING you do besides hearing, believing, receiving, period. No church membership, whether it is ANY denomintion will save you, baptism does not save you, sacraments don't save you, good works don't save you, rituals and ceremonies do not save you, ONLY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS!!!!

BAPTISM? Why does it say he who believes AND is baptized??? (when in MANY more verses it says only believe) Because, if one truly believes, and IS SAVED, baptism is our outward profession of that faith, it is a RESULT, as good works are a result, if we are truly saved, we will WANT to be baptized to confess Christ to the world, we will WANT to do good works, and go to church, AS A RESULT, OF OUR BEING NEW CREATURES IN HIM. Because HE is now in us, working out HIS plan, for HIS glory, God be praised forevermore!

Read John 3:5 AND 6 in CONTEXT: ...except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the FLESH is FLESH; and that which is born of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT.

Here he says except a man be born of water=FLESH, AND the spirit=SPIRIT. See how the 2nd verse puts the first verse into context???

Now read this: John 5:24: Verily, verily I say unto you, He that HEARETH my word, and BELIEVETH on him that sent ME, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME into condemnation, but IS past from death to life.

Did you hear his word? Did you believe? When do you HAVE everlasting life? WHEN YOU BELIEVE, YOU -----H A V E-----HAVE----- H A V E !!! RIGHT NOW, Everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME into condemnation. YOU ARE past from DEATH to LIFE!!! How sure was Jesus of this? (double sure-verily verily or truly truly).

jOHN 6:47: Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting life.

The moment you believe, you HAVE everlasting life, period, truly, truly!!!

Do not be fooled by any 'other' man-made additions for salvation, trust in what the Bible says, that Jesus shed his blood for your sins, if you accept that great gift, you HAVE everlasting life.

 

[Aqualung]

we are saved by GRACE, which is undeserved, unmerited favor, through faith, UNTO good works

That's because no matter how hard we try, we'll never be good enough to enter into god's kingdom. It doesn't mean we can go around doing whatever we want and still get the same treatment as those who do good. Oops. I have to go. Sorry I didn't think of that before I started answering. :bonk:

 

[michel]

It doesn't mean we can go around doing whatever we want and still get the same treatment as those who do good.

Yes it does, because if you truly get saved, your " want to's " change --- (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[Katzpur]

Yes it does, because if you truly get saved, your " want to's " change --- (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Would you agree, then, that if you don't make an effort to change, you never were sincere in wanting to?

 

[joeboonda]

I Cor. 3:11-13: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, whic is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. if any man's work abide which he hat built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. If any man's work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS; BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE. (by the skin of his teeth) parenthesis mine.

II Cor. 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Chirst; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These verses are to believers, for rewards. Some will have great reward, some will have less, some will have none, but still be saved. It does make a difference how you live once you are saved. Be ye Holy for I am Holy. Our rewards and position in the millenial kingdom, whether we receive any of the five crowns spoken of in the new testament, depend on our works done after we are saved. He who does little can expect little, but will still be saved. God will wipe away all tears from our eyes, but I don't want to stand before him empty handed. As we yield to the Holy Spirit, and do not quench or grieve him, but obey him, we will begin to produce fruit in our lives, treasure in Heaven. A christian can quench the Spirit and end up with a miserable existence here and loss there, or can obey and have abundant life here and treasure there. It is all in how much we submit to God and allow him to work out these things in us, for it is not us, but Him who works it out as we trust and obey.

 

[michel]

Would you agree, then, that if you don't make an effort to change, you never were sincere in wanting to?

No effort required --- just go to 'autopilot' and do what comes natur...er...spiritually.

 

[Katzpur]

No effort required --- just go to 'autopilot' and do what comes natur...er...spiritually.

So you are automatically just thoughtful, considerate, kind, etc. all the time -- now that you're saved, huh? Gone are the days when you lose your temper. Gone are the times you pass judgement on others. You've never done anything wrong since the moment that happened? Autopilot. Man, am I ever glad you're saved, because if you weren't, I shudder to think how you'd treat people whose beliefs are different from yours.

 

[michel]

So you are automatically just thoughtful, considerate, kind, etc. all the time -- now that you're saved, huh? Gone are the days when you lose your temper. Gone are the times you pass judgement on others. You've never done anything wrong since the moment that happened? Autopilot. Man, am I ever glad you're saved, because if you weren't, I shudder to think how you'd treat people whose beliefs are different from yours.

Actually, when the natural man flares up, and I give in to it, then I'm "kicking against the pricks" as the Bible puts it - (Acts 9:5).

The spiritual side of me needs to be nurtured in the Word of God so it can grow.

Did you see my post on the tripartite nature of man?

 

[Katzpur]

Actually, when the natural man flares up, and I give in to it, then I'm "kicking against the pricks" as the Bible puts it - (Acts 9:5).

The spiritual side of me needs to be nurtured in the Word of God so it can grow.

I see. So sometimes autopilot breaks down? And what if you chose not to allow the spiritual side of yourself to be nutured? Or is that also something you have no control over?

Did you see my post on the tripartite nature of man?

I believe so.

 

[michel]

I see. So sometimes autopilot breaks down? And what if you chose not to allow the spiritual side of yourself to be nutured? Or is that also something you have no control over?

Any pilot can tell you that if you switch the autopilot off, and the plane goes to the wrong destination, it's not because the autopilot broke down.

If I chose not to nurture the spiritual side of me, I will remain a babe in Christ.

 

[Jenyar]

Yeah, I realised that after I had read your post again. :bonk: But people need authority to baptise. Jesus never said that just anybody could baptise people. He only gave that to certain people.

Jesus also never said that only some could baptise - it's a deduction we made ourselves. The apostles seemed only concerned with keeping the faith intact - so much so that they didn't baptise much themselves; they left it to the elders. When that faith is intact, the baptism is valid. If it's not intact, the baptism makes no more difference than taking a bath - even if it were done by Melchizedek himself. I suggest you read a little about the Jewish understanding of baptism here, since John would have depended on it.

It was for the same reason. It was to fulfill all righteousness. We can't even get close to fulfilling all rgihteousness if we don't get baptised. (also, his baptism was to show us what we need to do to return to live with our father in heaven.)

We can't even get close to fulfill righteousness even if we are baptised, so it's hardly an argument for baptism. Jesus' baptism brought two worlds together - the physical and the spiritual, the old and the new; John's baptism by water and God's baptism by fire. It was an act of reconciliation - also called God's righteousness - the touchstone of all faith in God, before and after. We aren't baptised in the Jordan just because Jesus was, are we? Because we're not trying to faithfully repeat what Jesus did to try and get the same results, we're just confirming what he did.

And what authority was that? The aaronic priesthood that he held.

And yet it wasn't enough, was it? Like Hebrews says: "If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood ... why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?"

Acts 19:4-6 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.​

Paul was not of any priesthood (he was of the tribe of Benjamin), and yet he dismissed the authority of John's baptism before that of Christ's. Yet Jesus never baptised anyone himself. Clearly this doesn't have to do with people conferring authority physically. Even some priests who had valid Jewish priesthoods realized their own authority was lacking:

Acts 19:13-15 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. (One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"​

Not those who have the name of the devil on their forhead, but for the most part, everyone will, at some time or another, choose to be baptised.

That's a great statement of faith, but it's not one I find very reasonable considering what Revelation tells us. According to it, everyone who are alive receives the mark of the beast - i.e. everyone who are not already "dead in Christ", as signified by baptism. If they were not baptised at the time of judgement, they were not baptised, and that's it. "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Heb. 9:27). In the same principle by which you read "repent and be baptised" consecutively, we should read "die and face judgement". If by the time we have to face judgement Christ does not recognize us, even though we can say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?", there is only condemnation left. A baptism will not help you if Jesus does not.