Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation

[Aqualung]

Jesus also never said that only some could baptise - it's a deduction we made ourselves. The apostles seemed only concerned with keeping the faith intact - so much so that they didn't baptise much themselves; they left it to the elders

The fact remains, they left it to the elders. The didn't leave it to just anybody, like that guy down the street. Another thing, it's the elders in our church who do most of the baptisms. While any priesthood holder can baptise, the apostles are pretty much concerned about keeping the faith intact.

If it's not intact, the baptism makes no more difference than taking a bath - even if it were done by Melchizedek himself.

True-ish. I agree that if a person is not truely repentant of their sins, and not actually willing to take upon himself the name of Jesus Christ, then the baptism is nothing more than a bath. But if a person is truely repentent etc., but is not baptised by a priesthood holder, it's still nothing more than taking a bath.

 

[Aqualung]

And yet it wasn't enough, was it

Nope. Because all the aaronic priesthood can do is give outward ordinances (such as sacrificing animals, baptising, and the like). You need a higher priesthood to do the spiritual ordinances, like binding a couple for time and eternity, and giving the gift of the holy ghost.

 

[Aqualung]

We aren't baptised in the Jordan just because Jesus was, are we?

No, that's rediculous. We follow him as much as physically possible. We are all baptised by immersion when we reach the age of accountability by someone with the correct authority.

Because we're not trying to faithfully repeat what Jesus did to try and get the same results, we're just confirming what he did.

We're supposed to be follow him. If you loved me you would keep my commandments.

Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Funny. The didn't have the holy ghost anyway. They needed someone with the power to besow the holy ghost to lay his hands on them.

If they were not baptised at the time of judgement, they were not baptised, and that's it. "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

Yep. I have no real problem with that. because if they aren't baptised by the time of judgement day, they must really have not wanted to be baptised.

 

[brotherjim]

Whoever,

"Christ is the only Way to salvation," true, but more specifically, and in regards to "ETERNAL salvation" of whom Jesus is the "Author . . .TO ALL THOSE WHO OBEY HIM":

Eternal Life is only promised in the Holy Word to those who have received from God, one Grace after another until they are either perfected in His Love or they die while in the process---all only possible, of course, because of the priceless Blood and Spirit-given Faith of Christ Jesus, Lord over all.

This above is the ONLY doctrine in agreement with the whole counsel of the Holy Bible---and that without having to drive square pegs into round holes. See for yourself, with the Holy Ghost as Guide and in Jesus' Name, because no excuse will be accepted on Judgment Day, much less even able to be voiced.

1 Jn. 2:3-5; Lk. 10:25-28; 1 Jn. 4:16-18; Rev. 22:14; Eph. 2:8-9; Heb. 10:26-29; etc.; etc.; etc.---ad infinitum

Every denomination and sect and non-denom. organization has violated the most basic law of doctrine formation: if ANY Biblical verse or portion thereof cannot be reconciled with a doctrine, then it can be known that that theory is false, from man and not from God, and the opinions of man cannot save anyone, neither can they change God's Standard.

Give up, let Him, brother jim
[email protected]



(Many, of course, will/would staunchly disagree, for "few there be.")

 

[joeboonda]

You all still just have a works based salvation, you are all wrong who add anything YOU do to be saved but believe in what HE did. I am not including you in that, AV1611, you got it right. And you are right in that it is God who works IN us, however, autopilot may not be the best way to describe it, as growth, not salvation, but growth, takes effort on our part, but is only possible through 'Christ which strengthens us'.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is GOd which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Aqualung]

You all still just have a works based salvation, you are all wrong who add anything YOU do to be saved but believe in what HE did. I am not including you in that, AV1611, you got it right. And you are right in that it is God who works IN us, however, autopilot may not be the best way to describe it, as growth, not salvation, but growth, takes effort on our part, but is only possible through 'Christ which strengthens us'.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is GOd which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It's not only works based. But works is a big part of it. Maybe not as much as faith, maybe more. I don't know the ratio. But both are important. Doesn't if you love me you will follow my commandments mean anything to you? It's not some secondary thing. What about remember me and keep the ordinances? or faith without works is dead? You need ordincances and works. Faith alone won't do you anything.

 

[Katzpur]

Any pilot can tell you that if you switch the autopilot off, and the plane goes to the wrong destination, it's not because the autopilot broke down.

If I chose not to nurture the spiritual side of me, I will remain a babe in Christ.

Okay, then. It requires a conscious choice. It is not automatic then.

 

[Katzpur]

Whoever,

"Christ is the only Way to salvation," true, but more specifically, and in regards to "ETERNAL salvation" of whom Jesus is the "Author . . .TO ALL THOSE WHO OBEY HIM":

Eternal Life is only promised in the Holy Word to those who have received from God, one Grace after another until they are either perfected in His Love or they die while in the process---all only possible, of course, because of the priceless Blood and Spirit-given Faith of Christ Jesus, Lord over all.

Beautifully stated. Thank you.

 

[michel]

No effort required --- just go to 'autopilot' and do what comes natur...er...spiritually.

Okay, Katz, two days and 10 posts later just to have me repeat myself by adding one word. I can see this is going to be a long, long conversation. But just to humor you:

I amend the above post as follows:

No effort required --- just conscientiously go to 'autopilot' and do what comes natur...er...spiritually.

 

[Aqualung]

Okay, Katz, two days and 10 posts later just to have me repeat myself by adding one word. I can see this is going to be a long, long conversation. But just to humor you:

I amend the above post as follows:

No effort required --- just conscientiously go to 'autopilot' and do what comes natur...er...spiritually.

satan has faith - no, he knows - who Jesus is. He knows that he is the lord and saviour of human kind. Will he be saved, too? No, because of lack of works.

 

[michel]

satan has faith - no, he knows - who Jesus is. He knows that he is the lord and saviour of human kind.

That's so true.

Matthew 8:29 = AND, BEHOLD, THEY CRIED OUT SAYING, WHAT HAVE WE TO DO WITH THEE, JESUS, THOU SON OF GOD? ART THOU COME HITHER TO TORMENT US BEFORE THE TIME?

James 2:19 = THOU BELIEVEST THAT THERE IS ONE GOD; THOU DOEST WELL: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, AND TREMBLE.

Will he be saved, too? No, because of lack of works.

Salvation is not extended to Satan, or any angel. They don't have flesh and blood.

 

[Jenyar]

Doesn't if you love me you will follow my commandments mean anything to you?

Why don't you quote the commandments Jesus mentioned?

Then, please tell us why only Mormons are able to follow those commandments. Who do you trust the merit of your works to? Who "makes them count"?

Faith alone won't do you anything.

Of course not, because "faith alone" does not exist (the doctrine of "sola fide" means salvation does not come by the merit of our deeds, not that deeds don't feature). That was James' point. "Show me your faith without works..." -- i.e. you can't. But the alternative is not that our works carry the weight of our faith - they can't. They couldn't for Israel, they can't for the gentiles. Who carries the weight of our faith? Jesus does. We put our faith in Him, and He saves us.

Our actions either confirm or deny our faith, but they can't add to it - they can't do what Jesus doesn't make them do. If they could, grace would not have been necessary, because if you can attain "exaltation" by works (what you do, not Jesus), you could also have attained salvation by them, since both depend only on conforming exactly to God's required laws and "ordinances".

 

[Aqualung]

Then, please tell us why only Mormons are able to follow those commandments. Who do you trust the merit of your works to? Who "makes them count"?

It's Jesus who makes them count. But he won't make them count unless they are done by the proper authority.

But the alternative is not that our works carry the weight of our faith - they can't.

Of course not. Do you think that if I went and got baptised by one having proper authority, yet I didn't beleive in Jesus, I didn't beleive in baptism, and I hadn't repented of my sins, that it would mean anything? Of course not!

 

[brotherjim]

brotherjim wrote: "Eternal Life is only promised in the Holy Word to those who have received from God, one Grace after another until they are either perfected in His Love or they die while in the process---all only possible, of course, because of the priceless Blood and Spirit-given Faith of Christ Jesus, Lord over all."

Beautifully stated. Thank you.

Well, thank you, Katzpur, you are too kind and very gracious.

However, what I was trying for was: succinct.

The problem with being concise, however, is that it creates the need for such as a Judge Roberts and the courts of law. For example, one very major loophole in what I stated, can be closed with the addition of just a few more words. To wit:

Eternal Life is only promised in the Holy Word to those who have committed at any and all "costs," in their heart (Jer. 3; Lk. 10:27a) and in the Law of their mind (Romans 7:21-25), to . . . receive from God one Grace after another until they are either perfected in His Love or they die while in the process---all only possible, of course, because of the priceless Blood and Spirit-given Faith of Christ Jesus, Lord over all.

But then, of course, just as those who are still lawless in heart will cry, "WORKS! WORKS! WORKS!," when someone mentions the need to receive more than just one or two acts of Grace, so too will they and also others argue with my inculsion above of the word "costs." After all, the perverted, watered-down, placating and patronizing and pedestrian and palatable, so-called "gospel" of today's so-called "Christian," states as their main theme, "It's a free gift from God. . . ."

But God himself, on the other---and the only truthful hand---warns that a builder, if he is to be a wise and therefore by implication, successful, one, will first sit down and calculate the costs of a project so he can before determine whether or not he has sufficient funds---not to mention willingness---to complete what was started.

brother jim
[email protected]



But then, how fewer burgers would McD's sell if each were made to order?

 

[brotherjim]

. . . Our actions either confirm or deny our faith. . . .

Whoever,

The above, not necessarily true---not at all.

There are innumerable people in the world of many faiths, likely including satanists somewhere (I at least know such is true of some "white" witches), who do good works.

Also, thoroughly ludicrous: if someone takes the Holy Bible and its Christian principles, and applies them as a philosophy to their life---just like was extensively done when forming the laws of this country America---and then performs good works, such qualifies them as fulfilling the requirements of James Chapter Two?!?

"I tell you the truth: many will come to Me in That Day, and say, "Lord, Lord, did we not. . . ."

And even if someone genuinely, at some past time in their life, received the miraculous New Birth and was truly transformed at that time, does such necessarily mean that today, say, 5 or 10 years later, that when they do this good deed or that, that such is the result of God's Laws written upon their heart, and the (V)voice of the (S)spirit of God dictating within them? Could they not simply be doing good things as a result of fleshly will, identical to the example above of those with religions other than Christianity? If so, then such forthcoming good works cannot possibly bear any true witness to Christ in them---it is mere coincidence.

So how does someone know?

brother jim
[email protected]

 

[michel]

And even if someone genuinely, at some past time in their life, received the miraculous New Birth and was truly transformed at that time, does such necessarily mean that today, say, 5 or 10 years later, that when they do this good deed or that, that such is the result of God's Laws written upon their heart, and the (V)voice of the (S)spirit of God dictating within them? Could they not simply be doing good things as a result of fleshly will, identical to the example above of those with religions other than Christianity? If so, then such forthcoming good works cannot possibly bear any true witness to Christ in them---it is mere coincidence.

Hi, Brother Jim, nice to meet you.

That's a good point you make.

Romans 2:14 = FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, THESE, HAVING NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.

But then you have:

Galatians 4:8 = HOWBEIT THEN, WHEN YE KNEW NOT GOD, YE DID SERVICE UNTO THEM WHICH BY NATURE ARE NO GODS.

So yes, we have this desire to please (S)someone higher than ourselves, and it's the (O)object of our faith that determines whether or not it is true faith or idol worship.

So how does someone know?

Matthew 7:20 = WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

And what are their fruits?

Galatians 5:22 = BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONGSUFFERING, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, TEMPERANCE: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

James, Jesus brother, in James 2 says that by their works you can tell; and Hebrews 11 lists the works of famous men of God.

So, contradiction? Not at all.

It's by their fruit + works + Who is the Object of their faith = you can "righteously judge" who is truly born-again and who isn't.

 

[Mike182]

It's by their fruit + works + Who is the Object of their faith = you can "righteously judge" who is truly born-again and who isn't.

a good conclusion

however proverbs 21:2 says: "every way of a man seems right in his own eyes, but the lord weighs the heart"

i think that faith in christ is fundamentally important before anything else

but faith in christ should inevitably bring out better works and deeds in a person

so i would conclude that faith in christ and good deeds are intrinsically inseperable, and each would be nothing without the other

but then what happens if i dont do a good deed when i feel i should do?

well, "the lord weighs the heart" - the fact that deep down, you honestly wanted to help that person, you have reached salvation

C_P

 

[brotherjim]

Greetings, AV1611, in the Name of the Lord Christ Jesus! (Hey, the intro. in my new NASB says that the 1611 KJV was a remake/update (I forgot their exact word) of some c.1586 "Bishop's Bible." 'Sup w. dat?)

Hi, Brother Jim, nice to meet you.

Well, time will tell; we'll see {-_-}

That's a good point you make.

Wellll, ehhhh, ummmmm, thanks, but I claim it from Above and myself just takin' dictation (I never expect anyone to believe that, however, for we all know of one or more of those, wellll, ummmm, ehhhhh, "mistaken" ones).

Romans 2:14 = FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, THESE, HAVING NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.

The above is one of the most misunderstood and therefore misused verses.

Kindly allow me liberty to amplify so as to reveal the true implication/intended meaning:

"For when the Gentile [born-again Christians], which have not the [Old Covenant] Law, do by [their reborn] nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the [Old Covenant] Law, are a [New Covenant] Law unto themselves."

Regardless, your point was taken and with basis.

Matthew 7:20 = WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

I'm tempted to spell out that sound someone hears at an ice hockey game when a goal is scored, but I don't know how to spell it, and such would be somewhat cruel and insensitive---and I'm so very girly for a guy, thank you Jesus. Besides, few are willing to communicate with me, and I'm always---well, most of the time {-_-}---grateful when someone does. So thanks.

The above verse I quote of you quoting, is, again, widely misunderstood and therefore misused.

It does not refer to Fruits of the Spirit, but regards those that someone proselytizes. (You know, like when we idiomatically say of someone's child, "the 'nut' didn't fall very far from the 'tree.'")

The Fruits of the Spirit---given both in a "measure" of each the nine at the time of the New Birth, and then subsequently, also instantaneously, individually available in all their supernatural fullness (www.EnterHisRest.org)---are not detectable in the natural realm. After all, consider how many thought that Jesus---who of course had all nine Fruits in all their fullness---was a devil. They could not discern either His Love, Meekness, or Goddness (and a whip of a cat-o-nine-tales was not very indicative of Gentleness---looks truly are deceiving).

We can better understand this if we consider the verse, "Is your eye evil because I am Good?" We as sinful flesh, mostly still full of "envy and strife" (KJV), refuse to admit the existence in another, of that which we ourselves have failed to obtain from God.

(One exception would be, those one-in-a-million Mother Theresa's and such, who we tend to idolize and consider a rare exception, refusing to admit that God has called EVERY Christian to the same degree of like-servanthood.)

So, no, I'm truly sorrowed to say, but your response does not answer the "dilemma." I really do appreciate the attempt, though.

"Peace and Grace be multiplied onto you," AV1611, those glorious "manifold Graces of God," in Jesus' precious and exalted-above-all Name, brother jim
[email protected]

 

[brotherjim]

. . . the fact that deep down, you honestly wanted to help that person, you have reached salvation.

Whoever,

The above, not true. To wit:

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin," not salvation. James 4:17

 

[michel]

but then what happens if i dont do a good deed when i feel i should do?

well, "the lord weighs the heart"

We have what we call "sins of omission" and "sins of comission".

Sins of omission occur when we don't do something we should.

Sins of comission occur when we do something we shouldn't.

Either way, we should apply 1 John 1:9 and move on.

Just out of curiosity, why do you call yourself "Corrupt Priest"?