Christian: Crazy doctrine

[Heneni]

Ok..ill be the first to admit that i sometimes have strange ideas. But i have heard some strange doctrine in my days. Here is an example: Of course it is not preached like this...but its hiding inbetween the fancy footwork.

Am i the only one who finds all of this a bit odd:

Let me explain. Lets say a wicked person dies...where do they go? People believe hell. So then...if hell is their punishment then there they are burning their chops, and weaping and wailing and the works.

But that is not quite enough...God then resurrects them. Well according to paul, who said that he was confident that there would be the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So..i guess now God takes them out of hell and places them infront of his judgement throne, the judgement of the LAST day. Then they are judged. The judgement is you go to hell...again. HE HE!!!!! At least this time you know why...

Alternatively if you are one of the unfortunate ones to be alive on this earth and a christian...you are going to suffer like nobody has ever suffered before, while you comrades who died before you look down upon this mayhem and seem rather fortunate that they are not here to endure it. They just pray for the end...

All they are looking forward to is to be resurrected from the dead thereby being reintroduced into bodies which they apparantly already should have if they died and gone to heaven.

So then...my christian friends who have died before me are fortunate, and they dont need to go through all the wrath of god on this earth. Lucky them then? If we endure to the end the bible says we will be saved. What about those who have not had to endure till the end...they are not here to endure to the end. They are already dead and/or with christ. (maybe not)

Also, if you are one of those unfortunate wicked who are alive when the proverbial paw paw hits the fan, and the earthquakes come and the water turns into blood and there are plagues, you will be suffering like crazy, then die and suffer some more in hell. If only you died before the paw paw hit, then you would have had only hell and not hell plus hell on earth.

I find all of this thinking a bit strange...but im sure ready to be enlightened!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm lazy today but this pretty well explains things:
The State of the Dead between Death and Judgment

Simply put, there's a waiting place, Hades or Sheol, between death and judgement.

 

[Heneni]

Thank you sandy. Just one problem with that theory. Jesus said to the thief that he will see him in paradise. Paradise is not hades.

And if these people are all kept there in hades/sheol, the wicked and the righteous...are they floating around like puffs of smoke, or do they have spiritual bodies. If they have spiritual bodies then why resurrect them and give them another one.

Can god not judge people unless they have bodies? Unless they are resurrected? To him all spirits are alive.

Heneni

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Thank you sandy. Just one problem with that theory. Jesus said to the thief that he will see him in paradise. Paradise is not hades.

I believe the link covered Paradise.

 

[Lucian]

Heneni: Do you know Dante Alighieri's poetry on the afterlife?

Inferno
Purgatory

They're interesting depictions. Inferno is horrible even, perhaps more telling about the condition of the minds of men who have toyed around with the concept of "hell". "Hell" is the Inferno with no end. I personally don't accept the idea of "hell". If Jesus suffered the sins of men, then Jesus would himself be in "hell", and God would have failed to be the savior of men. Apokatastasis is more likely. Dante didn't most likely himself believe in it, considering his writings, but in some ways, it echoes Dante's own passage through Inferno and Purgatory to Paradise. It's the path from imperfection to perfection ("theosis").

Well, that didn't really deal with "hades/sheol", but hopefully it's of some interest.

 

[Heneni]

Hell is real. Your sitting in it. Hell will be destroyed. Jesus already came to hell and left it. If he could do it, so can others. He came to take the keys of hell, transforming it from a prison, to a way out.

This earth is on a road of destruction. If someone cant get off the planet they will be destroyed with the planet. That is...their souls and bodies will be destroyed. I dont think their spirits will be destroyed. Where will the spirits of the wicked go? To the lake of fire. Where is the lake of fire...somewhere where gods holiness will burn on them.

The demons said to jesus 'have you come to torture us before the appointed time?' They were uncomfortable with the presence of jesus. His presence tortured them. Wherever the lake of fire is...the presence of god will burn down on it all the time, but it wont be in heaven.

Heneni

 

[Luminous]

Ok..ill be the first to admit that i sometimes have strange ideas. But i have heard some strange doctrine in my days. Here is an example: Of course it is not preached like this...but its hiding inbetween the fancy footwork.

Am i the only one who finds all of this a bit odd:

Let me explain. Lets say a wicked person dies...where do they go? People believe hell. So then...if hell is their punishment then there they are burning their chops, and weaping and wailing and the works.

But that is not quite enough...God then resurrects them. Well according to paul, who said that he was confident that there would be the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So..i guess now God takes them out of hell and places them infront of his judgement throne, the judgement of the LAST day.

your consept of what paul believed is falty, most likely he believed like other jews at the time that God resurects you from ashes, then sends you to heaven or hell. that whole consept of going to hell or heaven imidiately after death comes from pagan Europe and their believe in Haides and stuff.

Then they are judged. The judgement is you go to hell...again. HE HE!!!!! At least this time you know why...

Alternatively if you are one of the unfortunate ones to be alive on this earth and a christian...you are going to suffer like nobody has ever suffered before, while you comrades who died before you look down upon this mayhem and seem rather fortunate that they are not here to endure it. They just pray for the end...

Pual would never haved believed John. And some weak faithed christains who would quickly put the mark on themselfs to save from testing belive in that one girls of a "rapture". NO, the Apocalipse time is to test Christians faith.

All they are looking forward to is to be resurrected from the dead thereby being reintroduced into bodies which they apparantly already should have if they died and gone to heaven.

So then...my christian friends who have died before me are fortunate, and they dont need to go through all the wrath of god on this earth. Lucky them then? If we endure to the end the bible says we will be saved. What about those who have not had to endure till the end...they are not here to endure to the end. They are already dead and/or with christ. (maybe not)

Go ahead, believe in the rapture. i believe that is your desire.

Also, if you are one of those unfortunate wicked who are alive when the proverbial paw paw hits the fan, and the earthquakes come and the water turns into blood and there are plagues, you will be suffering like crazy, then die and suffer some more in hell. If only you died before the paw paw hit, then you would have had only hell and not hell plus hell on earth.

NO, bad people quickly but number on and suffering ends for them, untill they go to hell. in this way Christians faith is truely tested.

I find all of this thinking a bit strange...but im sure ready to be enlightened!

I find the believe in any religion to be a bit strange. but im sure ready to take the fertilizer bags head on for what they are. sure i'll look for gold within them. doesn't the average person's lifetime poo contain about 5 oz of gold?

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you sandy. Just one problem with that theory. Jesus said to the thief that he will see him in paradise. Paradise is not hades.

And if these people are all kept there in hades/sheol, the wicked and the righteous...are they floating around like puffs of smoke, or do they have spiritual bodies. If they have spiritual bodies then why resurrect them and give them another one.

Can god not judge people unless they have bodies? Unless they are resurrected? To him all spirits are alive.

Heneni

The Spirit World is comprised to two states or realms: (1) Prison and (2) Paradise. Christ visited both states during the three days His body lay in the tomb. He presumably saw the repentant thief whom He told He'd see on that day in Paradise, but we know that He also visited many spirits in Prison.

Everyone who dies goes to the Spirit World to await the resurrection and final judgment. They exist as spirits, cognizant entities who are capably of learning, making choices, and changing for the better. Once it's time for the resurrection, these spirits re-enter the newly perfected and immortalized bodies they had on earth. They then go to stand before God to be judged and sent to either Heaven or Hell. My belief and the belief of most members of my Church is that most will be sent to Heaven, but to one of three realms of glory, depending upon their righteousness and level of obedience.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The Spirit World is comprised to two states or realms: (1) Prison and (2) Paradise. Christ visited both states during the three days His body lay in the tomb. He presumably saw the repentant thief whom He told He'd see on that day in Paradise, but we know that He also visited many spirits in Prison.

Did the thief on the cross go to LDS Paradise that day? Or was he sent to Spirit Prison(I. e. hell)?

My belief and the belief of most members of my Church is that most will be sent to Heaven, but to one of three realms of glory, depending upon their righteousness and level of obedience.

So most people are righteous and go to Paradise after they die?

 

[Katzpur]

Did the thief on the cross go to LDS Paradise that day? Or was he sent to Spirit Prison(I. e. hell)?

The Bible says "Paradise." I'll go with Paradise.

So most people are righteous and go to Paradise after they die?

I didn't say that. I don't know where most people will go immediately after death. When I said we LDS believe most will end up in Heaven, I was referring to their ultimate state after the final judgment. It's entirely possible for someone to be in the Spirit Prison after he dies, but then hear the gospel, repent, receive the necessary ordinances. If that were to happen, he would break free of the Spirit Prison and be in Paradise for the remainder of the time prior to his resurrection. At that point, he'd go to Heaven.

 

[logician]

Hell is real. Your sitting in it. Hell will be destroyed. Jesus already came to hell and left it. If he could do it, so can others. He came to take the keys of hell, transforming it from a prison, to a way out.

This earth is on a road of destruction. If someone cant get off the planet they will be destroyed with the planet. That is...their souls and bodies will be destroyed. I dont think their spirits will be destroyed. Where will the spirits of the wicked go? To the lake of fire. Where is the lake of fire...somewhere where gods holiness will burn on them.

The demons said to jesus 'have you come to torture us before the appointed time?' They were uncomfortable with the presence of jesus. His presence tortured them. Wherever the lake of fire is...the presence of god will burn down on it all the time, but it wont be in heaven.

Heneni

I don't think I can get into your god.

 

[ChristineES]

I have heard some pretty weird stuff, but I am not prepared to make fun of anyone's faith and I know that some of the things I believe in could sound strange to someone who doesn't believe it.

 

[Charity]

Thank you sandy. Just one problem with that theory. Jesus said to the thief that he will see him in paradise. Paradise is not hades.

And if these people are all kept there in hades/sheol, the wicked and the righteous...are they floating around like puffs of smoke, or do they have spiritual bodies. If they have spiritual bodies then why resurrect them and give them another one.

Can god not judge people unless they have bodies? Unless they are resurrected? To him all spirits are alive.

Heneni

I believe when Jesus said to the thief on the cross "this day you will be with me in Paradise".....I believe it to be the place where Jesus went at the moment of his death.....then afterward he entered into the prison referred to as Hell, where he returned with the keys to death, hell and the grave......I think that Heaven will be the destination after what is referred to as the Great white throne judgment.....
I believe we have a spiritual body so to speak at the time of the resurrection....In heaven according to the scripture we will have a new glorified body..........I'm looking forward to that, this one leaves a lot to be desired Heneni......

 

[RemnanteK]

I always thought the Bible said that the Dead know nothing...I could be wrong?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This earth is on a road of destruction. If someone cant get off the planet they will be destroyed with the planet. That is...their souls and bodies will be destroyed. I dont think their spirits will be destroyed. Where will the spirits of the wicked go? To the lake of fire. Where is the lake of fire...somewhere where gods holiness will burn on them.

This is a great argument for putting more money into the space program.

 

[Heneni]

I find the believe in any religion to be a bit strange. but im sure ready to take the fertilizer bags head on for what they are. sure i'll look for gold within them. doesn't the average person's lifetime poo contain about 5 oz of gold?

And this is the SAME FAITH section of the forum...do you mind?

I don't think I can get into your god.

And this is the SAME FAITH section...again...do you mind?

This is a great argument for putting more money into the space program.

If your a christian, which i dont think you are...please do post in another section? Or convert for the timebeing.

Thanks ever so much! My point is...if god himself has not been able to convince you of his goodness and existance, I am certainly not going to think I can. Yeh?



Heneni

 

[Heneni]

The Spirit World is comprised to two states or realms: (1) Prison and (2) Paradise. Christ visited both states during the three days His body lay in the tomb. He presumably saw the repentant thief whom He told He'd see on that day in Paradise, but we know that He also visited many spirits in Prison.

Everyone who dies goes to the Spirit World to await the resurrection and final judgment. They exist as spirits, cognizant entities who are capably of learning, making choices, and changing for the better. Once it's time for the resurrection, these spirits re-enter the newly perfected and immortalized bodies they had on earth. They then go to stand before God to be judged and sent to either Heaven or Hell. My belief and the belief of most members of my Church is that most will be sent to Heaven, but to one of three realms of glory, depending upon their righteousness and level of obedience.

Hmmm...ok...the thing is...that the bible says that it is appointed for a man do die once and then be judged. So lets say i die today...then i need to be judged, but then when im resurrected, i would live again, and then have lived twice before i am judged.

If we die and go to jesus, then we already have bodies that we can happily use to be with jesus, and would not need to be resurrected to get another body again.

It doesnt make sense that if a christian dies they hang around 'somewhere' and or get to 'sleep' while the rest of the christians have to bear the brunt of persecution on this earth. The bible says that if you endure to the end you will be saved (not talking about salvation on the cross), but rather saved from out of the world, when it is destroyed. Now is someone dies and lazes about in paradise, heaven or floating around somewhere here on earth, they would not be working in the kingdom.

What are we suppose to do? Work in the kingdom right? So if we have to work in the kingdom, then we ALL have to work in the kingdom. Would god let some work and not others. I tend not to think so.

If we die, our bodies, like a seed is sown into the ground, or wherever it goes, but any seed that is planted in the ground grows again. If we die, this body is sown into the ground, and we spring up somewhere else. To do what? To work in the kingdom. The bible says that we are children of the DAY. So as long as it is day, we have to work, because when night comes nobody can work.

When does night come? When this world is plunged into darkness. That happens at the end!

Besides this is the LAST day, and it has been since jesus ascended. But any day has many hours. And so...when the clock strikes '12' night has come and nobody can work. The clock hasnt striked so we must all work, not die and go to eternal bliss while the others bear the brunt.

The parable of the workers in the marketplace, hanging around there idly shows that no worker in the kingdom is going to get away from working in the kingdom. But whether we are 'hired' last, or 'hired' first, we all work, and get the same reward.

Now if someone like paul was hired first, where does he go? Does he go and rest...yes maybe for a while....but the parable shows that ALL the workers were in the workplace when they were called together to get paid.

Which is why...the closer we get to the end, the more workers of the kingdom there will be on earth. Not because more people get saved, but because those who have been hired first...come back and work again.

This is what paul says about the resurrection...he said that WE WHO ARE ALIVE...(he must have thought he will be) will be changed in a twinking of an eye. Now either the twinklin already happened, or he is coming back to be twinkled.

heneni

 

[Katzpur]

I always thought the Bible said that the Dead know nothing...I could be wrong?

It does say that (can't remember where). On the other hand, it says that Jesus visited the spirits in prison during the three days His body lay in the tomb, and that He taught them His gospel. Somehow that strikes me as a complete waste of His time if they were unaware of what He was saying. He also told the thief on the cross that He'd see him in Paradise on that same day. I think it's safe to assume that He didn't inadvertently leave out the disclaimer, "Oh, but you'll be dead so you won't be aware of my visit."

 

[logician]

And this is the SAME FAITH section of the forum...do you mind?



And this is the SAME FAITH section...again...do you mind?



If your a christian, which i dont think you are...please do post in another section? Or convert for the timebeing.

Thanks ever so much! My point is...if god himself has not been able to convince you of his goodness and existance, I am certainly not going to think I can. Yeh?



Heneni

Except there was no faith mentioned in the thread header.

 

[Apex]

Except there was no faith mentioned in the thread header.

You are an atheist. The OP is not; it is directed towards theists. Is that clear enough for you?

Go satisfy your incessant urges to constantly denounce religion else where.